16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Does it actually matter?

Is there a compelling reason not to do it correctly?

One commonly confusing card in my experience is Ketsu Onyo crew. The fact that you won't be able to move someone again the next round can be awkward.

On 9/19/2019 at 8:46 PM, MasterShake2 said:

Medium bases line up their center with the front, middile or back of the template, so on barrel rolls, their base can overhang the template. With Tallon rolls, they have almost no wiggle room though.

This is technically how all ships do it. Center line of the Ship Base has to align with one of:

1. Front Edge of the Template
2. Center Line of the Template
3. Back Edge of the Template

*e* And this has kind of been gotten at by a lot of comments...

28 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Does it [Fuel Leak Order] actually matter?

Yes. If the critical that a Fuel Leak ship suffers is a Hull Breach, the bonus damage from Fuel Leak will be face up.

55 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Does it actually matter?

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Fuel Leak into Hull Breach?

(in which case doing it in the correct order gets you another faceup card and not doing it does not)

On 9/20/2019 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Wilder said:

Yes, but that's the boundary measurement. Range is measured from the ship's base.

This is not something I can remember ever being asked, but I recently found out that there's a huge split between people that measure from base, and people that measure from ship token.

It has just never come up. Nobody seems to notice

For some reason, and I've always found this one weird, but I keep getting just plain Focus questions from new players. People keep coming into the store thinking it changes only one eye result, the way calculate does. I don't really know why that one comes up all the time, but it did and still does. More so in second Ed new players than in first. Never figured out why.

9 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

For some reason, and I've always found this one weird, but I keep getting just plain Focus questions from new players. People keep coming into the store thinking it changes only one eye result, the way calculate does. I don't really know why that one comes up all the time, but it did and still does. More so in second Ed new players than in first. Never figured out why.

Saaaaaame problem. Over and over. They know Caluclate exists. They might have forgotten force (cuz they asked about that too)

Frankly tho, this happened about as much in 1.0 in my exp.

11 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Is there a compelling reason not to do it correctly?

No, not really. I agree it's better to follow the rules. But you said you just couldn't fathom it, and the reason people do this is probably because on some level they understand it doesn't really matter. (Note that there are a lot of rules ignored by a lot of players (and judges) because they don't really matter.)

Despite the responses below, if all of the information is unrevealed, the order of a crit+damage drawn after a Fuel Leak usually doesn't really matter. (In other words, it doesn't really matter what order unrevealed cards are revealed in, because the whole point is that they are random.)

So, for instance, if someone does it in the wrong order, it's better to keep the wrong order than to reveal another card needlessly. If the revealed crit is a Hull Breach, you just flip up the unflipped damage card that was drawn.

15 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

Everyone agrees that you must choose a ship at range 1. *Then* check its arc to see if you're in it. If you measure and there's no ship at range 1, you can't then check its arc anyway. In that sense, checking its arc *is its own timing trigger by definition*, even if it doesn't fall under the "timing" *term of art* as defined by the RR.

you're leaving out "at the start of the engagement phase". If you can't select a ship at the start, you can't to the rest. the "if" can't be resolved. You can't select a ship during the engagement phase and resolve the "if". Regardless if you see it as it's own timing or not.

2 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

you're leaving out "at the start of the engagement phase". If you can't select a ship at the start, you can't to the rest. the "if" can't be resolved. You can't select a ship during the engagement phase and resolve the "if". Regardless if you see it as it's own timing or not.

In that particular quote, I was replying to a different facet of this case. Whether or not you check if a ship is at range 1 before you slot old t into the queue or after you pull him out depends solely on if you define "choose a ship at range 1" as a requirement, which as a reminder is a new term of art that everything in this case hinges on but is not defined in the rules.

But my best interpretation is that it's not a requirement, and so you don't do anything after " at the start of the engagement phase" until you pull it out of the queue.

11 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

But my best interpretation is that it's not a requirement, and so you don't do anything after " at the start of the engagement phase" until you pull it out of the queue.

hm...

I honestly don't see how anyone can think that the given instructions "at the start of the engagement phase" is not a timing window. and how "if you do" (step 2, if you will) can be fulfilled if you don't complete step one in the designated timing given. under the new rule, you can't put Old t's ability in the queue to be pulled out as you see fit, if you can't complete step one.

I guess it could be debatable that if you completed step one properly, regardless of the arc position of the targeted ship, you could then add Old t to the queue and resolve step two later when the arc position is there to complete the rest. I don't think that's the way it's supposed to work but I see how that may be interpreted, at least that makes some sense. If that's what you've been trying to get across, then please excuse me for missing that.

44 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

I honestly don't see how anyone can think that the given instructions "at the start of the engagement phase" is not a timing window.

I never said that. "At the start of the engagement phase" is most definitely a timing window.

Let's try a different tac. Are you arguing that, before you add old t's ability to the queue, you need to measure range to enemy ships, and choose 1 at range 1, and then check if old t is in its forward arc?

52 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I never said that. "At the start of the engagement phase" is most definitely a timing window.

Let's try a different tac. Are you arguing that, before you add old t's ability to the queue, you need to measure range to enemy ships, and choose 1 at range 1, and then check if old t is in its forward arc?

I'll let Pancho answer for himself, but my answer is yes. Our local players interpret that OT must meet the range 1 requirement at the start of the Engagement Phase.

But that's just to add his ability to the queue. It might still be up in the air on whether the ship he measures to is actually the one he strips the token from.

But either way, it seems pretty clear that OT must have a ship in his front arc, at range 1, at the start of the Engagement Phase to have his ability entered into the queue.

1 minute ago, underling said:

I'll let Pancho answer for himself, but my answer is yes.

Okay! Do you also have to check if it has green tokens?

2 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Okay! Do you also have to check if it has green tokens?

It doesn't list that restriction on OT's card. So I would say no.

OT's card just says "If you do and you are in its [forward arc] , it removes all of its green tokens."

My preference would be to rule that a ship must meet the restrictions on OT's card at the start of the Engagement Phase, thus not allowing any post Activation Phase movement to affect the number of ships eligible to have their tokens removed.

But it's hard to say how FFG would rule on this.

11 minutes ago, underling said:

It doesn't list that restriction on OT's card. So I would say no.

Why do you wait until you pull the ability out of the queue to check for green tokens, but you have to check range and arc before you put it into the queue?

Just now, Ablazoned said:

Why do you wait until you pull the ability out of the queue to check for green tokens, but you have to check range and arc before you out it into the queue?

Hey, FFG (or any TO at a tournament) may rule that both range and token availability are a restriction of OT's ability. I don't know the answer, but I'm good either way.

But if no tokens are present it doesn't really make any difference anyway, unless it's ruled that OT could steal from a different ship than the one that triggers his ability.

2 minutes ago, underling said:

But if no tokens are present it doesn't really make any difference anyway, unless it's ruled that OT could steal from a different ship than the one that triggers his ability.

It could for ships like Guri, Palob, Asajj, etc.

On 9/24/2019 at 2:54 PM, underling said:

We had a minor question that came up in our Hyperspace event last weekend, and it appears a few others have been a little confused about the timing, so I thought I'd post that here. It had to do with when TA-175 triggers and awards calculates to the remaining droid swarm.

The pertinent sections of the rules and rules reference are as follows:

Destroying Ships ...
A ship is destroyed when it has a number of damage cards equal to or greater than its hull value. A destroyed ship is placed on its ship card.

The timing on when a destroyed ship is removed from the play area depends on when the ship was destroyed:
* If a ship is destroyed outside of the Engagement Phase, it is removed immediately.
* If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect is resolved immediately before the ship is removed.
* If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged.

TA-175
After a friendly ship within range 0-3 with “Calculate” on its action bar is destroyed, each friendly ship within range 0-3 with “Calculate” in their action bargains one calculate token.

The confusion with TA is that some think that the calculates are awarded immediately after a ship suffers enough damage to be destroyed. This apparently is not the case, if there are still ships remaining to engage at the same initiative (of the ship that destroyed the first ship). The calculates are awarded when the droid is removed from the table, which is after all of the like initiative ships have engaged.

During the game this didn't affect anything, but is nice to know for future reference.

That's an interesting quirk... I suspect it's old language left over from before the latest ruling ("If a ship would be removed while there are one or more abilities in the queue, do not remove that ship until there are no abilities in the queue."). That 2nd line ("If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect is resolved immediately before the ship is removed.") pushes the trigger to the end of the ability queue, after any other type of effect has finished resolving (apparently including attacks like Deathfire), which feels unnecessary under the new ruling, unless the implications were really intended by FFG...

The same would appear to apply to Deadman's Switch -- you get destroyed, but don't deal your pulse of damage until the ship is being removed. If a concussion missile hits Dengar and the splash card-flip kills deathfire and a kihraxz with a deadman switch (by giving them each a direct hit), then:

1. Dengar would counter-attack
2. then we'd wait until the end of that engagement initiative (so everyone of that init would finish shooting)
3. the kihraxz would pulse with deadman (possibly triggering more effects before being removed)
4. finally, deathfire would get to shoot and drop a device (possibly triggering more effects before being removed).

The order of the last two depends on first player. But players would naturally expect steps 3 and 4 to happen first, not last.

That delay is very counter-intuitive, requiring knowledge of the effects of this special edge-case rule. And it means the damage from deathfire's shot and mine drop plus the deadman pulse couldn't affect anyone waiting to shoot (e.g. if they would receive crits), just like TA-175 wouldn't calculate them before their shot. That just feels ugly to me.

Again, I wonder if it's FFG's intent, or an oversight.

32 minutes ago, Wazat said:

That's an interesting quirk... I suspect it's old language left over from before the latest ruling ("If a ship would be removed while there are one or more abilities in the queue, do not remove that ship until there are no abilities in the queue."). That 2nd line ("If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect is resolved immediately before the ship is removed.") pushes the trigger to the end of the ability queue, after any other type of effect has finished resolving (apparently including attacks like Deathfire), which feels unnecessary under the new ruling, unless the implications were really intended by FFG...

The same would appear to apply to Deadman's Switch -- you get destroyed, but don't deal your pulse of damage until the ship is being removed. If a concussion missile hits Dengar and the splash card-flip kills deathfire and a kihraxz with a deadman switch (by giving them each a direct hit), then:

1. Dengar would counter-attack
2. then we'd wait until the end of that engagement initiative (so everyone of that init would finish shooting)
3. the kihraxz would pulse with deadman (possibly triggering more effects before being removed)
4. finally, deathfire would get to shoot and drop a device (possibly triggering more effects before being removed).

The order of the last two depends on first player. But players would naturally expect steps 3 and 4 to happen first, not last.

That delay is very counter-intuitive, requiring knowledge of the effects of this special edge-case rule. And it means the damage from deathfire's shot and mine drop plus the deadman pulse couldn't affect anyone waiting to shoot (e.g. if they would receive crits), just like TA-175 wouldn't calculate them before their shot. That just feels ugly to me.

Again, I wonder if it's FFG's intent, or an oversight.

Yep.

What brought this up was someone who plays Resistance Chewie pointing this out in the rules.

Evidently Chewie's bonus attack triggers the same way: after all ships engage at the same initiative of the ship that killed Chewie's friend.