2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They're probably trying to use the entire base length + template edges and not the centerlines + template edges for the maneuver.

Ah, I see what you mean - you aren't aligning the maneuver template to the front/back/middle of the ship's base, but the other way around - rather aligning the ship's centerline hashmark to the front/back/center of the template.

Yeah, I guess I can see how folks could get that wrong - on small bases, it basically doesn't make a difference because the maneuver template width is the same as the ship centerline hashmark to its base edge. On larger bases, that's not true.

4 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

What's the difference between reloading a charge and performing the Reload action?

I had not planned to weigh back in on the actual thread, but this one is one that I can never let go...

The difference is really rather simple.

The Reload Action is a multi-step process that allows you to Recover a Charge at the cost of a Disarm Token.

Reloading a Charge is something you made up in your head that does not exist in X-Wing: Miniatures Game.

🤣🤣🤣

There is no game effect or ability that will tell you to reload a charge on a card, they either tell you to Recover a card, (bypassing the reload mechanic if its Ordnance or a Payload) or it will tell you to Reload, either as an action or to Reload a specific card (not charge).

Thanks for your question though as it does highlight something I have to include!

Kris

5 hours ago, DarthSempai said:

''An arc is an area formed between the lines created by extending hash marks or arc lines printed on a ship token to range 3. ''

Sorry, they never say ''printed base'' per se, but they do mention arc lines printed on a ship token.

Yes, but that's the boundary measurement. Range is measured from the ship's base.

5 hours ago, xanderf said:

Ah, I see what you mean - you aren't aligning the maneuver template to the front/back/middle of the ship's base, but the other way around - rather aligning the ship's centerline hashmark to the front/back/center of the template.

Yeah, I guess I can see how folks could get that wrong - on small bases, it basically doesn't make a difference because the maneuver template width is the same as the ship centerline hashmark to its base edge. On larger bases, that's not true.

It's specifically for medium bases -- large bases end up aligning with the template, as well, so people took to that easily. But with a medium base, you get a little bit of overhang if you're doing it right and aligning with the centreline hashmark, and that just seems to throw people for a loop. I see it explained, or have to explain it myself at least once every at tournament I go to.

5 hours ago, xanderf said:

Wait, what's the deal with medium-base barrel rolls and talon rolls that is unusual??

Medium bases line up their center with the front, middile or back of the template, so on barrel rolls, their base can overhang the template. With Tallon rolls, they have almost no wiggle room though.

On 9/19/2019 at 6:58 PM, KrisSherriff said:

I had not planned to weigh back in on the actual thread, but this one is one that I can never let go...

The difference is really rather simple.

The Reload Action is a multi-step process that allows you to Recover a Charge at the cost of a Disarm Token.

Reloading a Charge is something you made up in your head that does not exist in X-Wing: Miniatures Game.

🤣🤣🤣

There is no game effect or ability that will tell you to reload a charge on a card, they either tell you to Recover a card, (bypassing the reload mechanic if its Ordnance or a Payload) or it will tell you to Reload, either as an action or to Reload a specific card (not charge).

Thanks for your question though as it does highlight something I have to include!

Kris

So what's "reloading" a card? Doesn't seem like it was just "made up in my head" when it's on a printed card, unless we're all imagining it. My assumption, and there are probably quite a number of others (given that there's been a few threads on this very topic) is that this sentence means "recover a charge" on this card, so I can accept that you took issue with the semantics in my original post. However, "Reload this card" is logically impossible - There's nothing other than a charge for it to "reload", it's not loaded into anything, and it's not a magnetic gift card that you can use again and again by paying more money to have it "reloaded", so it's unclear (and this is the debate) whether this means that you just recover the charge or perform the Reload action (which results in the Disarmed token). Here's the actual card for reference...

On 9/20/2019 at 5:43 AM, feltipern1 said:

So what's "reloading" a card? Doesn't seem like it was just "made up in my head" when it's on a printed card, unless we're all imagining it. My assumption, and there are probably quite a number of others (given that there's been a few threads on this very topic) is that this sentence means "recover a charge" on this card, so I can accept that you took issue with the semantics in my original post. However, "Reload this card" is logically impossible - There's nothing other than a charge for it to "reload", it's not loaded into anything, and it's not a magnetic gift card that you can use again and again by paying more money to have it "reloaded", so it's unclear (and this is the debate) whether this means that you just recover the charge or perform the Reload action (which results in the Disarmed token). Here's the actual card for reference...

:D you didn't ask about reloading a card, you asked about reloading a charge.

They are different statements and would have generated different answers.

I will give you the answer you would have gotten to the Action: Reload this card vs Reload Action.

Firstly your assumption that there are other examples of [Action: Reload this Card] is incorrect, the only time this wording appears is on Energy Shell Charges, when you contrast that to the number of times Recover (X) appears (currently 29 times) you start to see issues with assuming that Energy-Shell Charges is telling you to recover a charge and not perform a Relaod action on that card.

Your second point of there being nothing to reload on the card is also a little off when you consider what a Reload Action is and the fact that you can never Reload a Charge, only Recover them.

Page 16 of the RRG is as follows:

RELOAD [Reload]
Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their ship.
When a ship performs the [reload] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:
1. Choose one of the ship's equipped [torpedo], [missile], or [payload] upgrade cards that has fewer active [charges] than its current limit.
2. That card recovers one [charge].
3. The Ship gains one disarm token.

We can break down what we are being asked to do any try to match terminology to both the card and the RRG and see where we end up.

We are asked to reload this card so we look up reload in the RRG.

We are given steps to follow.

Step one, is Energy-Shell Charges a [missile] upgrade card equipped to the chosen ship with fewer active [charges] than its current limit? - Nothing wrong so far, we have followed both the card and the RRG.

Step two, That card recovers one [charge] - Still following both the Card and the RRG and this would seem to go against what you are saying about reloading this card being logically impossible as this step references the card specifically

Step three, we got this far, nothing has told us to stop so we had better carry on, lets check the packaging to see if FFG gave us a disarm token to complete this step when there is no other way, given what comes in the pack that a Vulture could gain a Disarm token, yes, they did, so lets give it to the ship.

There are many other ways to extrapolate the fact that the Vulture is performing a Reload to Recover a Charge on the Energy Shell Charges card, but this has been spoken about many, many times.

No event runs it as recover the charge without the reload, there is no precedent for it, so the only way it would ever come up would be kitchen table X-Wing with you and your friends, and if you all have fun playing it that way, who am I to tell you how to enjoy your X-Wing, literally, do what you want as long as everyone is having fun, who cares.

Anyway, hope I didn't offend you with my initial response as that was not my intent, if this make sit clearer for you then awesome, if you disagree, so be it, I am not here to argue :D

Cheers

Kris

43 minutes ago, KrisSherriff said:

When a ship performs the [reload] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:

This is the big one here. It says that the action causes a ship to "reload" and then says what the steps of reloading are. The "reload action" makes a ship "reload" and the steps for "reloading" (action or no) are those three steps listed there.

Lock uses the same wording: "When a ship performs a [lock] action, it acquires a lock." And then the rules say what to do when acquiring a lock, which is universal to all instances of acquiring a lock, whether it's from the lock action or not.

This whole game just got hugely more complicated. Unneccesarily so also, as much of the complexity is convoluted and doesn't make the game better.

Going to make a post soon about all the weird game rules that should be standardized.

13 hours ago, KrisSherriff said:

you didn't ask about reloading a card, you asked about reloading a charge.

They are different statements and would have generated different answers.

I will give you the answer you would have gotten to the Action: Reload this card vs Reload Action.

Firstly your assumption that there are other examples of [Action: Reload this Card] is incorrect, the only time this wording appears is on Energy Shell Charges, when you contrast that to the number of times Recover (X) appears (currently 29 times) you start to see issues with assuming that Energy-Shell Charges is telling you to recover a charge and not perform a Relaod action on that card.

Your second point of there being nothing to reload on the card is also a little off when you consider what a Reload Action is and the fact that you can never Reload a Charge, only Recover them.

Page 16 of the RRG is as follows:

RELOAD [Reload]
Pilots can reload to rearm ordnance tubes by moving around ammo on their ship.
When a ship performs the [reload] action, it reloads by performing the following steps:
1. Choose one of the ship's equipped [torpedo], [missile], or [payload] upgrade cards that has fewer active [charges] than its current limit.
2. That card recovers one [charge].
3. The Ship gains one disarm token.

We can break down what we are being asked to do any try to match terminology to both the card and the RRG and see where we end up.

We are asked to reload this card so we look up reload in the RRG.

We are given steps to follow.

Step one, is Energy-Shell Charges a [missile] upgrade card equipped to the chosen ship with fewer active [charges] than its current limit? - Nothing wrong so far, we have followed both the card and the RRG.

Step two, That card recovers one [charge] - Still following both the Card and the RRG and this would seem to go against what you are saying about reloading this card being logically impossible as this step references the card specifically

Step three, we got this far, nothing has told us to stop so we had better carry on, lets check the packaging to see if FFG gave us a disarm token to complete this step when there is no other way, given what comes in the pack that a Vulture could gain a Disarm token, yes, they did, so lets give it to the ship.

There are many other ways to extrapolate the fact that the Vulture is performing a Reload to Recover a Charge on the Energy Shell Charges card, but this has been spoken about many, many times.

No event runs it as recover the charge without the reload, there is no precedent for it, so the only way it would ever come up would be kitchen table X-Wing with you and your friends, and if you all have fun playing it that way, who am I to tell you how to enjoy your X-Wing, literally, do what you want as long as everyone is having fun, who cares.

Anyway, hope I didn't offend you with my initial response as that was not my intent, if this make sit clearer for you then awesome, if you disagree, so be it, I am not here to argue

Cheers

Kris

For posterity, @KrisSherriff, I have already come down on the side of performing a Reload action and thus gaining the disarmed token when I use this card's ability, but since your original post was asking for most common rules debates/questions, I thought I'd put this one in there as it does have an ambiguity that causes problems. My main problem was the "something you made up in your head" sentence, which I felt was unnecessary.

9 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

For posterity, @KrisSherriff, I have already come down on the side of performing a Reload action and thus gaining the disarmed token when I use this card's ability, but since your original post was asking for most common rules debates/questions, I thought I'd put this one in there as it does have an ambiguity that causes problems. My main problem was the "something you made up in your head" sentence, which I felt was unnecessary.

No Worries,

It is part of my charm that my dry British humor (some people, quite correctly, think of it as me being an ***) does not translate well to text

Again, no offense was meant and sorry if my response seemed dismissive of your concerns.

Kris

15 hours ago, KrisSherriff said:

No Worries,

It is part of my charm that my dry British humor (some people, quite correctly, think of it as me being an ***) does not translate well to text

Again, no offense was meant and sorry if my response seemed dismissive of your concerns.

Kris

I'm a fan of dry British humour - Big Python fan, among other things - but you're right; it didn't actually translate well to text, but now that I hear it in my head, I have to chuckle.

To answer the main topic, right now I'd say entering abilities into the queue. A bunch of people are *insisting* that you can't use ketsu to tractor someone into old t's arc, as an example, but I find that interpretation incorrect because old t's ability has no requirement to trigger it.

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

old t's ability has no requirement to trigger it.

"At the start of the engagement phase you may choose 1 enemy ship at range 1"

is there something I'm missing that would make these requirements unnecessary to add Old T's ability to the queue?

11 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

"At the start of the engagement phase you may choose 1 enemy ship at range 1"

is there something I'm missing that would make these requirements unnecessary to add Old T's ability to the queue?

Contrast the wording of old t's ability to anakin:

"After you fully execute a maneuver, if there is an enemy ship in your [front arc] at range 0-1 or in your [bullseye arc] , you may spend 1 [force charge] to remove 1 stress token.

Or to ensnare:

"At the end of the Activation Phase, if you are tractored, you may choose 1 ship in your [m obile turret] arc at range 0-1. Transfer 1 tractor token to it.

Or to Unkar:

At the start of the Engagement Phase, if there are one or more other ships at range 0, you and each other ship at range 0 gain 1 tractor token.

These and other abilities follow a certain formula- [timing window], if [requirement is met], you may/must [do thing].

Contrasted to others like Old Teroch or Ketsu (pilot), which instead follows the formula- [timing window], you may [do thing].

TL;DR, no "if", no requirement for slotting into the queue.

3 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

TL;DR, no "if", no requirement for slotting into the queue.

so... what about this part on his card?

" If you do "

1 minute ago, PanchoX1 said:

so... what about this part on his card?

" If you do "

Sure, but that's a second timing window linked to choosing the ship, which you don't do until you pull old t's ability out of the queue.

Found out on Sunday I've STILL been doing med/large Barrel Rolls incorrectly...🙄

15 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Sure, but that's a second timing window linked to choosing the ship, which you don't do until you pull old t's ability out of the queue.

the ship needs to be chosen "at the start of the engagement phase". you can't put his ability in the queue if you are unable to choose a ship at the start of the engagement phase. the "if you do " is not a second timing window. it's a second step in his ability that you complete if step one has been fulfilled "at the start of the engagement phase"

18 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

the ship needs to be chosen "at the start of the engagement phase". you can't put his ability in the queue if you are unable to choose a ship at the start of the engagement phase. the "if you do " is not a second timing window. it's a second step in his ability that you complete if step one has been fulfilled "at the start of the engagement phase"

I disagree here, as I explained above. To me, "if you do" is a new timing window that starts when you pull the ability out of the queue and then choose a ship. I choose to interpret the rules to say you don't have to completely "pre resolve" an ability to put it in the queue, but rather you only need to meet "if", "while", or other similarly-prefaced requirements.

In any case, I expect that if we still disagree, it'll only be resolved by future official clarification.

30 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I disagree here, as I explained above. To me, "if you do" is a new timing window that starts when you pull the ability out of the queue and then choose a ship. I choose to interpret the rules to say you don't have to completely "pre resolve" an ability to put it in the queue, but rather you only need to meet "if", "while", or other similarly-prefaced requirements.

In any case, I expect that if we still disagree, it'll only be resolved by future official clarification.

"If you do" isn't a timing in X-Wing:

http://infinitearenas.com/xw2rules/index.php?page=timing

Timing

There are several terms that are used to indicate the specific timing of an effect:

• Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.
• At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step.
• While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied.
  • For example, in the context of an attack, if the ability rolls additional attack dice, the ability triggers during the Roll Attack Dice step. If the ability modifies defense dice, the ability triggers during the Modify Defense Dice step.
• At the end of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step of ship's activation. This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred.
• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.

13 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

"If you do" isn't a timing in X-Wing:

http://infinitearenas.com/xw2rules/index.php?page=timing

Timing

There are several terms that are used to indicate the specific timing of an effect:

• Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.
• At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step.
• While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied.
  • For example, in the context of an attack, if the ability rolls additional attack dice, the ability triggers during the Roll Attack Dice step. If the ability modifies defense dice, the ability triggers during the Modify Defense Dice step.
• At the end of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step of ship's activation. This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred.
• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.

This is great, thanks! Looks like my wording wasn't sufficiently precise.

But it doesn't absolve Old T of the necessity of doing things in a specific order. Everyone agrees that you must choose a ship at range 1. *Then* check its arc to see if you're in it. If you measure and there's no ship at range 1, you can't then check its arc anyway. In that sense, checking its arc *is its own timing trigger by definition*, even if it doesn't fall under the "timing" *term of art* as defined by the RR.

And it doesn't change the fact that, as I see it, Old T can slot his ability into the queue without measuring and choosing a ship at range 1. In fact, I'd argue, he's *not allowed to measure* when slotting into the queue. The ability is "you may choose...if you are in its..." There is no requirement attached to triggering it.

Once again, contrasted to Anakin, Unkar, Ensnare, Minister Tua, Guri, etc who clearly have a "[timing window]", "if [condition is met]", "you may...",

Until FFG rigorously defines "requirement", I'm sticking to my guns, because the other way seems to break everything. Some people are unironically saying you have to check for Old T's ability TWICE! Once to slot it into the queue, and the AGAIN when you pull it out to resolve it.

Actually, here's another one: Fuel Leak.

At least once a week I have to explain to people that you suffer the incoming critical first, which then triggers Fuel Leak. For some reason I cannot fathom, everyone seems to read "After you suffer [crit] damage" and assume that it means they should deal that extra damage first.

32 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Actually, here's another one: Fuel Leak.

At least once a week I have to explain to people that you suffer the incoming critical first, which then triggers Fuel Leak. For some reason I cannot fathom, everyone seems to read "After you suffer [crit] damage" and assume that it means they should deal that extra damage first.

Does it actually matter?