2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Scum need to be the weakest faction. Unlike the other six, they are not a cohesive galaxy-wide organization. Furthermore, they have as many options as the Rebs and Imperials, but unlike those "basically complete" OG factions it's been hinted that Scum will continue to get new ships at a pretty consistent rate, which will ultimately mean they have more ships and more upgrade options than any of the other six factions in the game.

Also, I've found it's often a good thing for a competitive game to have one or more "challenge" factions that are not as straightforwardly powerful as the others, to give veteran players a new challenge or a way to handicap themselves against new players.

Please don't take this too hard, but I disagree entirely.

It really sucks to be the player who bought into the faction with real money because they liked them, only to discover it's going to be the neglected "challenge" faction. :/ Suffice it to say, I don't think that's good for the game. If someone wants a challenge, they can play with non-meta ships and fly fleets that the top-meta players don't fly -- we already see people doing this in tournaments. I just did this at a tournament. There's no reason to throw an entire faction -- and all its players -- into the mud to create a challenge faction dumping ground.

I disagree that a faction should be weak because it's getting new ships. FFG is going to be pooping loads of new ships into the clone wars, fo, and resistance factions for a while yet. Why aren't they weak as a result? Shouldn't the Resistance and FO be the weak factions since they still have movies coming out about them, so they'll be getting new ships for the foreseeable future? And if Scum is going to be the longest-lived faction, why would FFG want to drive the majority of players away from buying into it? That's just bad for business.

I'm also not into the thematic argument that they should be the weakest because the entire faction is not a cohesive organization... that's not a good reason to nerf it. A bounty hunter like Boba Fett is a serious threat even if he doesn't have an entire faction behind him. If we're doing things thematically, then we could equally argue the separatists and republic should be objectively weaker than the OT core factions, which should be objectively weaker than the Resistance and FO, because generations have passed in-between and technology has progressed, organizations have strengthened. Or argue that sep and rep should be objectively strongest because that was before the fall. Or we could argue that rebels and resistance should be weaker for being the manpower- and resource-stressed underdogs. Whether or not these arguments are right, they're arguments we could make for nerfing faction a or b or c. And they're bad arguments, because that's not how X-Wing is meant to work.

Rather than getting into an argument over whether any of those example arguments are fully accurate -- and I know that's where it will go if allowed -- let's instead focus on the point of the statement . Once you start making thematic arguments for why a specific faction should be objectively weaker than the others and rarely ever see use in tournaments, you open pandora's box and now any the factions should be weakest for reason x or y. That's a simmering flamewar. Nobody wants their faction to suck because someone made a sophistic-sounding argument for why that faction shouldn't be allowed to be effective.

And the point of X-Wing factions is not to have one be objectively weaker than the others and largely ignored. FFG has been pretty clear that players should be able to pick the faction they love and stick with it, and that they'll endeavor to keep things balanced and viable.

Scum is the faction that has Bounty Hunters, Mobsters, and Pirates. Arguing that they shouldn't be effective raiders or assassins because they're not cohesive is crazy and dismissive of a lot of the fun of the Star Wars universe. The bounty hunters and pirates don't need to be cohesive with the mob; they just need to be paid .

So I really hope no one ever succeeds in arguing to FFG that one faction should just be weaker than the others. That sucks for anyone who likes the faction, and it's totally unnecessary.

12 minutes ago, Wazat said:

A bounty hunter like Boba Fett is a serious threat even if he doesn't have an entire faction behind him.

Not that it diminishes the rest of your post, but we see precious little in the movies to indicate Boba is even a moderate concern, much less a serious threat.

Just now, JJ48 said:

Not that it diminishes the rest of your post, but we see precious little in the movies to indicate Boba is even a moderate concern, much less a serious threat.

True, but considering we are using whole characters from Legends (Corran, Guri, Kyle Katarn, and so on), that material still counts for something. And in that material, Boba is a serious threat.

3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Also, I've found it's often a good thing for a competitive game to have one or more "challenge" factions that are not as straightforwardly powerful as the others, to give veteran players a new challenge or a way to handicap themselves against new players.

When I was about to start playing X-wing, I went to the local store and asked: please, advice me the weakest faction, I want challenge! So they gave me Scum.

And then - a month later - Jumpmasters arrived

Playing Scum is like stepping in front of a wall full of tools designed to cripple, break legs, break fingers, hit in the crotch, glue your opponent’s hands together, etc… and knowing that about 30% of those tools can be reliable “at the moment.” The last part (at the moment) is where the key is; understanding how the current meta is and which tool applies. You have very few easy choices that works in most cases with minimal effort. Sometimes, knowing the right tool to use means understanding what your opponents will bring, how it will decimate other lists and change the meta ahead of time.

My latest tournament results were:

- Won Hyperspace (with Fangs)

- 2nd place 14 player tournament (2 Fangs, Fenn, Serissu)

- 2nd place 65 player tournament (2 Fangs, Fenn, Serissu)

- 2nd placer 14 player tournament (dual IG-88)

- 2nd place 27 player tournament (dual IG-88)

The upcoming meta in my view? I expect the Nantex to screw things up in my local meta, making it a lot harder for small aces (of every faction) and also for most Scum tractor mechanics will be hampered. Scum medium and large bases will be largely immune to such mechanics, so my IG-88 build will actually become more powerful.

Maybe not having multiple sure-fire archetype is a scum weakness, but I like the challenge.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Not that it diminishes the rest of your post, but we see precious little in the movies to indicate Boba is even a moderate concern, much less a serious threat.

Look man, I'm going off of the Robot Chicken skits. Which I think we can all agree are canon.

3 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Look man, I'm going off of the Robot Chicken skits. Which I think we can all agree are canon.

In my Armada group we came up with the explanation that, after leaving Vader, Boba tried to jump to hyperspace with everyone else, only to find his own hyperdrive not working and the fleet gone. When the Falcon flies off, he doesn't immediately recognize it, but was merely thinking, "Hey! Maybe they know the way to Lando system! I should follow them and see if I can get my hyperdrive fixed!" Only after landing, talking to the mechanics, and entering the service-shop's waiting room does Boba spot Han, spit-take his complimentary caf, and call the Imperials.

(Disney, please make this canon.)

1 hour ago, dotswarlock said:

Playing Scum is like stepping in front of a wall full of tools designed to cripple, break legs, break fingers, hit in the crotch, glue your opponent’s hands together, etc… and knowing that about 30% of those tools can be reliable “at the moment.” The last part (at the moment) is where the key is; understanding how the current meta is and which tool applies. You have very few easy choices that works in most cases with minimal effort. Sometimes, knowing the right tool to use means understanding what your opponents will bring, how it will decimate other lists and change the meta ahead of time.

My latest tournament results were:

- Won Hyperspace (with Fangs)

- 2nd place 14 player tournament (2 Fangs, Fenn, Serissu)

- 2nd place 65 player tournament (2 Fangs, Fenn, Serissu)

- 2nd placer 14 player tournament (dual IG-88)

- 2nd place 27 player tournament (dual IG-88)

The upcoming meta in my view? I expect the Nantex to screw things up in my local meta, making it a lot harder for small aces (of every faction) and also for most Scum tractor mechanics will be hampered. Scum medium and large bases will be largely immune to such mechanics, so my IG-88 build will actually become more powerful.

Maybe not having multiple sure-fire archetype is a scum weakness, but I like the challenge.

You forgot to include that Scum requires their opponent to not fully understand what their tricks do with most of the abilities Scum has. Obfuscation is not an option in this game so really only the fools and ignorant consistently loose to S&V. The ignorant don't remain so, fools rarely make cut.

27 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You forgot to include that Scum requires their opponent to not fully understand what their tricks do with most of the abilities Scum has. Obfuscation is not an option in this game so really only the fools and ignorant consistently loose to S&V. The ignorant don't remain so, fools rarely make cut.

I win 85% of my games with IG-88, many of which against people who have faced them (same configuration) several times. Just because my opponent knows one of my many tricks does not mean that he is actually in a position to avoid it

EDIT: I can link one video of my semi-final match. My opponent was very good and 3 of his 2 pilots moved at initiative 5. The higher initiative did not help him at all, however.

1 hour ago, dotswarlock said:

EDIT: I can link one video of my semi-final match. My opponent was very good and 3 of his 2 pilots moved at initiative 5. The higher initiative did not help him at all, however.

So what you are waiting for? Link it!

So is Snap Shot Palob a thing? According to Drea rulling his ability still works at range 0-2, right?

2 minutes ago, Boreas Mun said:

So is Snap Shot Palob a thing? According to Drea rulling his ability still works at range 0-2, right?

Snap Shot doesn't add a firing arc for his ability:

Quote

Firing Arcs

A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all turret arcs, if any.

• If an upgrade card gives a ship a turret arc or primary weapon with a specified arc, those arcs are also firing arcs.

Since Snap Shot adds neither a turret arc nor a primary weapon arc, it doesn't create a firing arc for abilities like Palob.

5 hours ago, Wazat said:

...

So I really hope no one ever succeeds in arguing to FFG that one faction should just be weaker than the others. That sucks for anyone who likes the faction, and it's totally unnecessary.

I call that the “Orc/Ork effect”. The idea that “this faction can just fall to the wayside and be a punching bag for everything else in the game. Afterall, the only people who play it are diehards, anyways.”

Luckily I don’t think FFG is that callous towards specific factions in X-Wing.

Could some power creep sneaking into the game? Jedi are really good. Points adjustments should help. Scum ships are being left alone unless they show up at the top tables. Its a cruel world. I have my fingers crossed that in the future scum will get something as good as the Jedi in terms of impact on the game. #DreamBig #Glitterstim #NewMandalorianToys

The Jedi feel to me like a return to the days of Expertise. The 1E Autothrusters effect on gas clouds is also really good for them. But a points adjustment or errata could always drop them down a bit.

3 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I call that the “Orc/Ork effect”. The idea that “this faction can just fall to the wayside and be a punching bag for everything else in the game. Afterall, the only people who play it are diehards, anyways.”

Luckily I don’t think FFG is that callous towards specific factions in X-Wing.

As an Orc/Ork player of many years (not anymore) I can relate to that...

7 hours ago, Oldpara said:

So what you are waiting for? Link it!

There you go, this is the semi-final at our last tournament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ69O9tYIBA&t=2755s

(Comments are in french, but upgrade cards and listings are in English, dice can be a bit hard to see sometimes)

7 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Could some power creep sneaking into the game? Jedi are really good.

Kinda sorta. I feel like the devs could be way more methodical with their points adjustments. There are a lot of things that have been widely requested and largely ignored for not perceivable reason, in particular:

• Larger points gap between I4 and I5 in general
• Cost decrease for YT-2400
• Cost decrease for Scyks
• Smaller points gap between (most) generic pilots; we're paying too much for the talent slot
• Several things that could cross thresholds with no problem but haven't because of the boogeyman spam list (33 pt Interceptors, 66 point Outer Rim Smugglers, etc.)
• Cheaper Illicits
• Cheaper Missiles

But very few of these things happened, and mostly in a few isolated cases. Instead, they over-buffed the Jedi for no perceptible reason. Plo Koon and Obi-Wan are the most absurdly priced things 2.0 has seen after the Wild Space Fringer. They're everywhere and they're universally performing at very high levels.

6 hours ago, Wazat said:

But a points adjustment or errata could always drop them down a bit.

So there's still hope. I really want to see them take a more nuanced approach rather than continuing to try fixing the glass cabinet with a sledgehammer and railroad spikes. So many 1- or 2-point changes would be better than the few nuclear 7-point changes they've gotten in the habit of making each adjustment, mostly out of nowhere as an overreaction to a jank list that has been considered NPE (and was largely dealt with due to FAQ or slot removals; looking at you Inertial Dampeners and Roark Garnet...).

Sometimes I wish I was doing the points adjustments.

But don't we all?

@ClassicalMoser its an unpopular opinion here but my feeling is they made the republic and jedi in particular to sell ships and lure in a new generation of players. Those of us that didn't buy in are left on the outside looking in (by choice I know but credit those scum who have faction loyalty and are sticking with Scum).

The Jedi might get nerfed hard at the next points adjustment and fall back in popularity a bit. In defence of FFG they have an impossible task to keep each faction balanced and they are doing a pretty good job actually. I'd just like to see them relax a bit on some of their previous scum nerfs and even give scum a well needed boost.

My partial Wish List:

• Maul crew cost reduced to 8pts. His you can equip Darkside upgrades benefit is rather lost on every pilot except Asajj. and even then its rather pointless.
• Han Gunner reduced to 8pts. Marauder currently costs 6, so to even take Han on a firespray you add 6pts. Kavil can use Han Gunner and would be rather good with it but with a single agility and pedestrian dial? surely would be easy pickings for the aces of the republic and empire!
• Some cool new scum only illicit that makes them relevant and more of a threat.
• How about some extra benefit for having Jabba crew or
• How about a Crimson Dawn title or Black Sun title that recedes the cost of illicit or gives a points reduction for ordnance or bombs.
• The Scurrg Bomber is hardly seeing play and isn't a great bombing ship. I'm on ffg's game design team but I wish I was because I'd shake things up a bit

10 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

@ClassicalMoser its an unpopular opinion here but my feeling is they made the republic and jedi in particular to sell ships and lure in a new generation of players. Those of us that didn't buy in are left on the outside looking in (by choice I know but credit those scum who have faction loyalty and are sticking with Scum).

The Jedi might get nerfed hard at the next points adjustment and fall back in popularity a bit. In defence of FFG they have an impossible task to keep each faction balanced and they are doing a pretty good job actually. I'd just like to see them relax a bit on some of their previous scum nerfs and even give scum a well needed boost.

I mean, yes, they absolutely made the Republic and Separatist factions to lure in new players, but not in the way I think you're suggesting (and if I'm wrong, I offer my apologies). I don't think FFG purposefully pushed the power level of the Jedi to make sure they sold.

The Force is something that is still pretty new to the game, and I feel that FFG are still struggling to figure it out themselves. They simply underestimated how good the Aethersprite was going to be (and in all fairness to them, so did the players -- I remember people complaining at release that Anakin was the only one who was playable, and even then only barely). Now that we and FFG all have a much better understanding of how nuts the Delta-7Bs are you can bet they're going to go up to a more reasonable cost.

Reminds me of when Planeswalkers first became a thing in Magic. Took a little while for Wizards to figure them out, too, and they also made some early mistakes. But they've since settled down to just be another part of the game. We're still in that figuring out stage at the moment.

25 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

My partial Wish List:

• Maul crew cost reduced to 8pts. His you can equip Darkside upgrades benefit is rather lost on every pilot except Asajj. and even then its rather pointless.
• Han Gunner reduced to 8pts. Marauder currently costs 6, so to even take Han on a firespray you add 6pts. Kavil can use Han Gunner and would be rather good with it but with a single agility and pedestrian dial? surely would be easy pickings for the aces of the republic and empire!
• Some cool new scum only illicit that makes them relevant and more of a threat.
• How about some extra benefit for having Jabba crew or
• How about a Crimson Dawn title or Black Sun title that recedes the cost of illicit or gives a points reduction for ordnance or bombs.
• The Scurrg Bomber is hardly seeing play and isn't a great bombing ship. I'm on ffg's game design team but I wish I was because I'd shake things up a bit

Yes, more illicits are badly needed, but I think you're falling prey here to a common error: you see the stuff that was good and is now average and you want it to be good again. The problem is that that's the wrong direction to chase. For example:

• The reason Maul isn't good is because the other stuff in the list isn't good, not because he isn't good. He's definitely worth 10 points or so, and he's been among the most consistent crew for both scum and rebels. See the listfortress data for proof if you need it.
• The same is true for Scum Han. 6 was absurdly cheap. 12 is close to right; it's very consistent, unblockable mods, which most ships would kill for. Once again, it has a proven track record of being well worth even his new price. And don't forget that Marauder also adds a free always-on re-roll, which is still a steal at 6 points. That also is well worth its points.
• Fett, Fenn, and Teroch are currently performing above average. This is largely because I5-6 aces pretty much rule the meta right now. They shouldn't be exempt from a general 2-point increase to I5-6 pilots across all factions. I seriously hope they do it, but I anticipate a lot of complaining when they do (like the last nerf to Anakin; he's still one of the best Republic pilots.

Rather, what needs to come down is actually almost everything else and only by small amounts. 2 points off of all Scyks. 2 points off of all IGs. 2 points off of all CYT1300s. 1 point off of most other things. And so on. If you look at the lists you could make once that was done, it's insane how much better lists just... fit. I promise that even with a nerf, Teroch, Fenn, and Boba will still be 100% usable because their wingmen are usable and now there's room for cool tricks. I promise that even Han gunner and Maul crew will still be very good, because now the other upgrades they work with fit in your list and don't suck.

But the beauty is that you don't have to lean on them . Pretty much every competitive list in 2.0 has included one or more of just a dozen pilots. Wouldn't you like to have a whole faction to explore without having to go back to HWKs, Fangs, and Firesprays? I'd like to see IG lists and Aggressor lists, and Zuckuss lists, and Z-95 lists, and Scyk lists, and Assajj lists all be viable.

For content though, Scum definitely need loads more illicits, usable crew/gunners, and none of that "Coaxium Hyperfuel" nonsense. And they need to stop paying for empty illicit slots.

Scum is definitely due way more buffs than nerfs. But when 2 or three come by, sometimes that's okay. Otherwise you end up with what just happened to Republic and you get where we are today.

14 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

2 points off of all IGs.

I still maintain: bad idea. Unless you nerf Tractor Beams at the same, then we're okay.

I'm an old 1st Edition BroBot main. I love these ships. I just shipped 4 of them off for a commission repaint in anticipation of breaking them all out in Epic again. But I shudder at the thought of being able to field 88ABC and have all three of them equipped with double-tapping Tractor Beams at 200 points. Just... no. Yuck. I would do horrible things to people with that.

@ClassicalMoser good points. I hope you are right about the Jedi, FFG need to adjust them with sizeable nerfing. Asajj should be cheaper, then maul fits her ship nicely. I agree there are so many sub-par scum pilots right now. non-scum players usually say look at all those ships but I would say, how many of them are worth putting in a list? I feel the Scyks time is almost here, its a rarely used piece right now and yes, those aggressors need another small adjustment. Z-95s are just in a bad spot, I'm not sure how ffg can bring them back into the game again, Bossk in a Z-95 will at least see some play. Low and mid initiative pilots are just having rings run around them in this meta, its a reason I think the mining guild ties are not seeing any play other than Seevor. low init spam is just not getting it done for scum. I miss those 28pt spacetugs!

@ClassicalMoser

• Quote

  The same is true for Scum Han. 6 was absurdly cheap. 12 is close to right; it's very consistent, unblockable mods, which most ships would kill for. Once again, it has a proven track record of being well worth even his new price. And don't forget that Marauder also adds a free always-on re-roll, which is still a steal at 6 points. That also is well worth its points.

  Han gunner right now is still over priced. FFG overkilled him. rear arc reroll for 6pt marauder is about right, I just don't think its worth an extra 12 points for Han, even tho its a free red focus, that stress is a significant drawback. yes, maul on his own is very powerful... not unlike the Jedi pilots that are rampant right now, that one force token that recharges itself each turn does amazing work. Ketsu and maul are great. Rather envious that force users get multiple force... its strong, and so much stronger with multiple charges.

59 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

His you can equip Darkside upgrades benefit is rather lost on every pilot except Asajj. and even then its rather pointless.

Asajj can equip dark side upgrades (i.e. Hate) without using Maul. This part of his ability is mostly thematic and is only useful for Ezra and Kanan pilots at the moment.

At the moment, all rebel, resistance and republic force pilots are light side. All the other factions (scum, imperial, first order and separatist) are dark side.