21 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seevor will likely go up in points soon. Probably to 32. Why? Because he is one of scums most efficient pilots and ffg have a track record of nerfing the best scum pilots. What they should do is reduce the cost of the other mining guild pilots by a point or two.

What they should do is both, mostly.

I don't think Seevor needs an increase, generally, but Scum is due for way more buffs than nerfs even if he did. The lack of buffs at the last points adjustment (for most low-I pilots in general and Scum and Rebels in particular) was absolutely criminal.

It does annoy me though: when Wedge, Anakin, Boba, or Fenn get well-deserved nerfs, everyone complains because their wingmen aren't doing that well. Don't complain that the good stuff gets nerfed. It's supposed to be; that's how the system works. Do complain that they keep missing out on buffing specific things over and over (VCX, YT2400, M3-A, most Imp/Scum generics, I4 pilots in general, etc). The bid/PS wars wouldn't be so much of a thing if we let them put some nice healthy increases on Obi, Anakin, Plo, Teroch, Nien/Ello, Tallie, Fel, and Duchess. The high-I wouldn't disappear, but at least it wouldn't be everywhere and some of the mid-I stuff could compete.

Nerf what's doing best, but also buff what's doing badly to terribly . It's not that hard...

Work of @SOTL

(borrowed from UK FB group)

Scum is indeed the weakest.

14 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Work of @SOTL

Ol' Two Accounts is still at it?

I expect to see the Kihraxz take a healthy jump after this weekend, or I'm calling the data worthless 😂

4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Ol' Two Accounts is still at it?

I expect to see the Kihraxz take a healthy jump after this weekend, or I'm calling the data worthless 😂

Not sure if he's active here, but he posts in UK group and recently reactivated the blog. I know there was some kind of drama here some time ago, but I am unfamiliar with the subject.

25 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Not sure if he's active here, but he posts in UK group and recently reactivated the blog. I know there was some kind of drama here some time ago, but I am unfamiliar with the subject.

No idea either I'm afraid. Knew I hadn't seen him around in a while though.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

...

Nerf what's doing best, but also buff what's doing badly to terribly . It's not that hard...

You’d think it’s not that hard... But from my experiences with wargaming, which goes beyond GW and X-Wing and includes historical, balancing things in a point-based system is actually quite difficult. And the players tend to take even the slightest change to the extreme, considering a miniscule point increase to be the end of the word for that unit/tank/ship/character/etc.

X-Wing being a living point-system makes things A LOT better than other systems where you’re waiting years for any kind of a point adjustment. And if “Ork” was in the name of the faction you chose, often times it was half a decade or more (and a few editions, too!). Indeed a simple glance towards the grimderp shows that it is STILL nothing but super dudes in armor, and the space elves that troll them.

Kyle Juopperi just won a Hyperspace in my area with Scum. There was only 35 people, but the Krayts were in attendance (I believe).

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Kyle Juopperi just won a Hyperspace in my area with Scum. There was only 35 people, but the Krayts were in attendance (I believe).

Do you remember (or know) what he fielded?

31 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

You’d think it’s not that hard... But from my experiences with wargaming, which goes beyond GW and X-Wing and includes historical, balancing things in a point-based system is actually quite difficult. And the players tend to take even the slightest change to the extreme, considering a miniscule point increase to be the end of the word for that unit/tank/ship/character/etc.

X-Wing being a living point-system makes things A LOT better than other systems where you’re waiting years for any kind of a point adjustment. And if “Ork” was in the name of the faction you chose, often times it was half a decade or more (and a few editions, too!). Indeed a simple glance towards the grimderp shows that it is STILL nothing but super dudes in armor, and the space elves that troll them.

I wonder if a major problem the scum generics face is the "+1 ship" threshold. A generic may not be worth fielding at its current point level, but if FFG drops the points any more, then certain specific fleets become viable and awful to fight. Stuff like 5 double-tapping y-wings etc, Drea swarms, etc. FFG may not be looking at the ship in isolation and saying "oh well this ship needs help"; they could be looking at the ship and saying "what happens if we reduce these ships by 1 or 2 points? What becomes the objectively-correct fleet and do we want that?".

But the main problem scum faces IMO is being in FFG's blind spot. They're focused on Separatists and Republic mainly, followed perhaps by FO and Resistance. The core 3 get nerfs when too strong, and occasional buffs if they're rebel or empire. It's scum's turn to be neglected (and has been for some time), and that needs to change.

It's worth noting that this fleet got 4th at the Intermountain Cup (36 players):

Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighter (38)
Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighter (38)
Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighter (38)
Drea Renthal BTL-A4 Y-wing (54)
Ion Cannon Turret
Jakku Gunrunner Quadrijet Transfer Spacetug (32)

So it was nice seeing a scum fleet listed so high ( see rest on TTT ). SOS was only .44 though so take that with a grain of salt. But I was very happy to see Kihraxz and Quadrijets on the table and doing really well. I considered flying that one myself, but didn't think it would be strong enough against the meta. I guess I was wrong, or else that player had a mix of lots of practice and luck to push him into the top four. (I tend to give people credit for their skill; saying they succeeded on dumb luck isn't very respectful of the time and effort they put into preparing)

Given that lots of my favorite jank is in scum, I'm hoping they get lots of attention in the next update.

I also want to agree with past statements that Jedi lists feel like a partial return to the 1.0 days of Expertise, PTL, and Autothrusters. Force + lock is a powerful blast at range 1, and they usually can afford to spend on defense too. They dodge arcs easily so they're usually not short on force with their hit&run tactics. They are extremely efficient ships. Particularly with republic, FFG is edging closer and closer toward the passive mods of first edition and I'm not encouraged by this development. But unlike in 1.0, at any time they can points-adjust or errata a fix in so it's not so dominant. So I am still optimistic: at any time the meta can change, and at any time they could remember to give attention to neglected factions.

Though the concern needs to be on FFG's radar in the first place. @Hiemfire has demonstrated an ability to generate change with questions; I say we pull some strings to get them into another Q&A section.

17 minutes ago, Wazat said:

...

But the main problem scum faces IMO is being in FFG's blind spot. They're focused on Separatists and Republic mainly, followed perhaps by FO and Resistance. The core 3 get nerfs when too strong, and occasional buffs if they're rebel or empire. It's scum's turn to be neglected (and has been for some time), and that needs to change.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s easy to say that a ship (or unit) that is underperforming or unpopular is too expensive in points. And at a glance it may certainly appear that way. But ofte times there are far more factors being considered than just the points cost. Tie Fighters are the gold-standard for point costs in this game, followed by X-Wings. And at heart, the maximum is (and always has been) 8 Ties - 4 X-Wings. So the cheapest Tie is 23pts; X-Wing is 41pts; Mining Guild Tie is 24pts; B-Wing is 41. It’s easy to say the Bounty Hunter Firespray is too expensive at 64pts, compared to the 104th Battalion ARC-170. But do we REALLY want to see it dropped to the point where you could run 4, like with the 104th? Even if it’s knocked down to just a bit more than 50pts, keeping the maximum at 3 in a list, the Bounty Hunter would be almost absurdly inexpensive. In that comparison, and based upon the Rebel ARCs, it’s probably more accurate to say the Republic 104th Battalion ARC is probably a bit too cheap at 42pts.

2 minutes ago, Wazat said:

@Hiemfire has demonstrated an ability to generate change with questions;

I'd rather my results not be emulated... Ask a question on steam about the application of a current ability interaction, watch the developers get "oh ****" looks on their faces and then have the current interaction neutered... Ya... Ain't a masochist and that sucked...

Something else I just thought of, some ships might overlap more than they would in other factions

Obviously there are noticable differences between like the g1-a, Kimo, and SCURRG, but they're also incredibly similar too.

Or like a khirax basically being a bigger, better Z. Or the MGT making the Z superfluous. Scyk suffered similarly, except it's extra uncertain about its identity (apart from Seri; Seri is neat)

Maybe the ion buff helped scyks out? Dunno.

Anyway, lotta ships in scum seem to step on each other's toes Ito roles (heh rhyme)

Only big thing that sticks out to me is that ffg nailed the republic arc pricing...but didn't match other low agi medium bases to it?

Especially noticable on the Kim and reaper, maybe because I've played those two a lot 😛

24 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I'd rather my results not be emulated... Ask a question on steam about the application of a current ability interaction, watch the developers get "oh ****" looks on their faces and then have the current interaction neutered... Ya... Ain't a masochist and that sucked...

I was just teasing ya. Hopefully it wasn't in bad taste.

Though I wonder how FFG would react if someone asked them "Hey, so should Scum players just leave the game since they're clearly not important and their faction is not getting any help or attention, even though it's been under-performing for a while now?". Puts that "oh ****" look on the right scenario, hah!

(would probably end in disaster, I know)

3 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I was just teasing ya. Hopefully it wasn't in bad taste.

Bad taste no, me missing the humor due to proximity yes. No worries on that.

On 9/18/2019 at 2:49 PM, Hiemfire said:

Side note, Dace got buffed. What ever that might be worth.

I kinda want to try out Dace + IG-88s B and C with Ion Cannons. He can stack focus tokens with Moldy Crow, and between Engine Upgrade and IG-88 D, he'll have an Evade when he boosts.

I'm sure it's not an overly impressive list, but I still want to give it a go.

On 9/20/2019 at 5:43 PM, Matanui3 said:

Wow, and it's not like anybody was using him to do that after the novelty wore off in the first place. Now he really has no use.

If no one was using him to do that, then why is it a big deal that he can't anymore?

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Do you remember (or know) what he fielded?

I believe it was Frost (Firespray), Fenn Rau, and....a generic Fang???

my memory isn't quite what it used to be so feel free to correct any of these points... [some edits already made thanks to @theBitterFig ]

This makes for sobering reading for a scum player. The 1st points adjustment really sucked the air out of scums sails. 5-6pt cost increases will do that.

Over 12 months ago ... Scum resigns supreme. Jakku Gunruuners cost 28pts and Boba/Marauder title/Han Gunner is prominent (paired with Kavil Han Gunner is also a powerhouse thanks to proton torps being cheap). Drea is also quite a powerhouse with cheap and tanky generics such as kimogila. Escape craft is cheap and efficient coordinate ship and is found in many top scum squads. Double tap Lok's with Drea emerges as scums best performing squad. 4-LOM with advanced sensors is awesome (my favourite scum pilot from this era).

1st points adjustment ... Scum nerfs begin... Jakku Gunrunners go up 2pts to 32. Han Gunner (goes from 4 to 12pts!) and marauder title and boba go up in points. Drea goes up to 42pts Dorsal Turret and Veteran Tuffet Gunner gets cheaper . Moldy Crow title goes up from 12 to 18pts. Escape craft goes up and tactical officer jumps up in price from 2 to 6pts. Trickshot in scum falcon and or Boba is pretty good and is cheap (started at 1pt and then goes up to 2pts?). Advanced sensors goes up to 10pts (4-LOM will miss using adv sensors).

2nd points adjustment ... scum is mostly ignored... Drea goes up AGAIN, this time to 49pts so does generic loks and veteran turret gunner (this effectively kills the Drea Lok squad... not a bad thing really but Drea is now out of the picture in any squad I'd say). Maul crew goes from 11 to 12pts . trick shot goes to 4pts mentioned here because it appeared on Han scum falcon and also Boba helping these ships punch a little harder with some careful flying and asteroid placement. Thanks to gas clouds this is no longer an effective way to trigger extra damage dice. Shadowcaster title drops from 6 to 3pts. Contraband Cybernetics drops from 6 to 3pts. Cartel Marauders drop to 38pts making them the cheapest 3 attack dice ship scum can field in numbers.

1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

my memory isn't quite what it used to be so feel free to correct any of these points...

This makes for sobering reading for a scum player. The 1st points adjustment really sucked the air out of scums sails. 5-6pt cost increases will do that.

Over 12 months ago ... Scum resigns supreme. Jakku Gunruuners cost 28pts and Boba/Marauder title/Han Gunner is prominent (paired with Kavil Han Gunner is also a powerhouse thanks to proton torps being cheap). Drea is also quite a powerhouse with cheap and tanky generics such as kimogila. Escape craft is cheap and efficient coordinate ship and is found in many top scum squads. Double tap Lok's with Drea emerges as scums best performing squad. 4-LOM with advanced sensors is awesome (my favourite scum pilot from this era).

1st points adjustment ... Scum nerfs begin... Jakku Gunrunners go up 2pts to 32. Han Gunner (goes from 4 to 12pts!) and marauder title and boba go up in points. Drea goes up so does generic loks and veteran turret gunner. Moldy Crow title goes up from 12 to 18pts. Escape craft goes up and tactical officer jumps up in price from 2 to 6pts. Trickshot in scum falcon and or Boba is pretty good and is cheap (started at 1pt and then goes up to 2pts?). Maul crew goes from 11 to 12pts. Advanced sensors goes up to 10pts (4-LOM will miss using adv sensors).

2nd points adjustment ... scum is mostly ignored... trick shot goes to 4pts mentioned here because it appeared on Han scum falcon and also Boba helping these ships punch a little harder with some careful flying and asteroid placement. Thanks gas clouds this is no longer an effective way to trigger extra damage dice. Shadowcaster title drops from 6 to 3pts. Contraband Cybernetics drops from 6 to 3pts. Cartel Marauders drop to 38pts making them the cheapest 3 attack dice ship scum can field in numbers.

Not an inaccuracy, but the 12 months ago doesn't really mention how widespread the HWK, particular Palob Godalhi, was. It wasn't just Moldy Crow, but also Palob and Torkil Mux going up in price, too. Only 2 points on their own, but that's on top of the +6 increase on the title, for +8 total. Although, Torkil did tick back one down this last update.

Drea/Lok's didn't happen a year ago, but the 1st Adjustment, while nudging up Drea a little (40 to 42), also made Dorsal and Veteran Turret Gunner a lot cheaper. 2nd Adjustment was where Dorsal and VTG went up, and Drea went up even more (42 to 49).

Maul to 12 wasn't until the 2nd points adjustment. 0-0-0 going up from 3 to 5 in the 1st Adjustment also seems important. He showed up in a tonne of lists, and while 2 points isn't too much in isolation, it came in combination with everything else.

//

The impact of Gas/Trick Shot seems like it matters. Han pilot wasn't super common, but he really depended on Trick Shot. Boba can be pricey, and Trick Shot seemed really handy to stay ahead in the damage curve. I've never been a good Trick Shot player so I tend to discount it, but despite Boba getting a hair cheaper with the 2nd points adjustment, he doesn't really seem to have come back much. Perhaps that's because Trick Shot went up by more than Boba went down.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Not an inaccuracy, but the 12 months ago doesn't really mention how widespread the HWK, particular Palob Godalhi, was. It wasn't just Moldy Crow, but also Palob and Torkil Mux going up in price, too. Only 2 points on their own, but that's on top of the +6 increase on the title, for +8 total. Although, Torkil did tick back one down this last update.

Drea/Lok's didn't happen a year ago, but the 1st Adjustment, while nudging up Drea a little (40 to 42), also made Dorsal and Veteran Turret Gunner a lot cheaper. 2nd Adjustment was where Dorsal and VTG went up, and Drea went up even more (42 to 49).

Maul to 12 wasn't until the 2nd points adjustment. 0-0-0 going up from 3 to 5 in the 1st Adjustment also seems important. He showed up in a tonne of lists, and while 2 points isn't too much in isolation, it came in combination with everything else.

//

The impact of Gas/Trick Shot seems like it matters. Han pilot wasn't super common, but he really depended on Trick Shot. Boba can be pricey, and Trick Shot seemed really handy to stay ahead in the damage curve. I've never been a good Trick Shot player so I tend to discount it, but despite Boba getting a hair cheaper with the 2nd points adjustment, he doesn't really seem to have come back much. Perhaps that's because Trick Shot went up by more than Boba went down.

Thanks @theBitterFig , I knew I was a little hazy on the timings of some of these details [made a few edits to my original post]. what's interesting is some of the upgrade nerfs have had a big influence on scum overall. Advanced sensors and trickshot are the ones that standout for me. advanced sensors hits guri and starvipers. Then there is tactical officer. its a double whammy for the scape craft which also has gotten more expensive meaning you are paying a real premium for a white coordinate. not a big deal? well in a faction like scum that has taken some heavy body blows in nerfs that has a significant impact. escape craft is still very playable, even without the tactical officer but its nowhere near as good imo.

gas clouds (aka auto thruster obstacles) play nicely into the Jedi era of the game making them even harder to damage through the course of a game. they hit and run better than any ship since Soontir. once mods for republic and empire in particular are a pain in the ***** to deal with. Scum actually has the tools to spoil their party so all hope is not lost, its just that these tools (tractor effects like Ketsu/shadowcaster or space tug), stress dealing (4-LOM) and to a lesser extent disruption from Captain Seevor can cause some challenges for ace reliant lists but even then id say the fight is 50/50 and very reliant on player skill and I wonder if all that ace hate will hurt you in other matchups.

Tac Officer was third adjustment. It got nerfed along the other components of Rebel beef.

Having narrowly missed a top 8 at a very competitive hyperspace trial with Boba Fenn I’m pretty happy with my Scum. And since we got two Scum players in the cut, and only 4 out of 42 players were Scum, I’m pretty happy.

That said I’d love to get my Hawks into hyperspace. Extended? Can’t comment. Haven’t played extended since the UKSO.

Scum need to be the weakest faction. Unlike the other six, they are not a cohesive galaxy-wide organization. Furthermore, they have as many options as the Rebs and Imperials, but unlike those "basically complete" OG factions it's been hinted that Scum will continue to get new ships at a pretty consistent rate, which will ultimately mean they have more ships and more upgrade options than any of the other six factions in the game.

Also, I've found it's often a good thing for a competitive game to have one or more "challenge" factions that are not as straightforwardly powerful as the others, to give veteran players a new challenge or a way to handicap themselves against new players.

21 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

And if “Ork” was in the name of the faction you chose, often times it was half a decade or more (and a few editions, too!). Indeed a simple glance towards the grimderp shows that it is STILL nothing but super dudes in armor, and the space elves that troll them.

Spikey-(ostensibly emo)-space elves raise you a full decade and something like 2-3 editions

As for Scum, I've got a very minimal sample size of one player in my local group (there are ~6 of us so it's not exactly a big group) but it definitely feels like he's had to pull out silly levels of jank. 7 homing missile, DMS Z95s, or HLC spam M3-A's to really enjoy things, and we play super casual 4 player, king of the hill or wing leader kill type games. It did seem like there were a lot of fun tricks in Scum, like the YV-666 flying off the board and the Starviper in general, so you've got lots of interesting and useful ships and abilities in isolation, but limited ability to make a squad from those many disparate abilities.