My Dace build is 59pts of Captain Ahab levels of insanity, don’t tell me he can’t Ion. It consists of:

Intimidation / or Daredevil

Engine Upgrade

Static Discharge Veins

Feedback Array

4-L0M

Connor Net

He’s not at all competitve, however.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Dace's ability works with ion (which 4-L0M gives him and Static discharge does pass one token to someone else for a stress), not tractor. Ion doesn't deny tokens except to droids (the Focus action is still permitted).

I'm aware of that. I just accidentally said Tractor instead of Ion.

But notably, it cuts out all the special actions that medium/large ships/Jedi/Aces etc. want to do: No linked actions. No boost. No Reinforce (Sorry RAC!) even with Tua or Quiz. No autothrusters or fine-tuned thrusters or pinpoint tractor array or or or...

It's not too shabby. 4-LOM leaves you Ionized, but having a 44 point ship Ionized is a small price to pay for having a 120 point ship ionized!

On a serious note... Here’s my take on Scum.

Scum, Empire, and Rebels have the vast majority of ships in the game obviously, and are the factions that (generally speaking) need the least amount of new content. Indeed I think at this point FFG would really have to dig deep to find anything for Rebels or Empire.

Scum however has loads of possible new content, but runs into the problem of being a catch-all faction that currently has the most ships in the game. Being a Catch-All means any faction or organization that is not important enough, organized enough, large enough, or outfitted enough, falls into the Scum faction. Scums current list of sub-factions are the Mandolorians (Scums largest and most premier faction), Tansari Point station, the Black Sun crime syndicate, the various Hutt cartels, the Bounty Hunters, Binayre Pirates, Smugglers, outer rim junkyard, offbeat rogue pilots, and probably a handful of others I’m failing to remember at the moment. All these factions mean Scum as a whole have a plethora of possibility, but can’t be catered to at the moment since they already collectively own the lion’s share of ship options.

So is Scum screwed? Yes and no.

Competitively speaking, Scum are relying only on existing content while newer factions like the Clone Wars are playing catch-up and getting new (questionably balanced) toys. So outside of card packs, point adjustments are about the only way to bring them competitively on par with everyone else. And again, this isn’t something unique only to Scum, as Rebel and Empire are also similarly limited.

Scum is also currently Force lite. The Gand Findsmen and Zuckuss were a missed opportunity, IMO. But more Legends or made up Force users could easily be added to them via card packs or squadron boxes if they do any. **** if the adventures of prequel-Solo and Lando continues, we might see Qi’ra go full Sith-mode. I’d be soooooooo down for that.

And most of all Scum lacks a definitive synergy. One thing FFG could do, is explore the sub-factions Scum has to offer. Maybe give some incentive or perk for buiding a thematic force that consists of one group. Maybe not to the ricdiculous extent a steampunk beatdown game went, but maybe something that just recognizes “Hey, you took a specific Hutt Cartel, so illicit upgrades all have 1 extra charge on them.” Or “by taking only IG-88s, you get to Kill All MEATBAGS and reroll 1 attack die while attacking a ship with a Focus token on it’s action bar.” Or “you’ve got nothing but Mandal Motors ships and Mandolorians, so force users don’t regenerate force if they’re within range 1 of you, because **** them!” But at the same time any perk shouldn’t be gamebreakingly nasty, or so good to the point of discouraging players from taking the ships they want.

I think FFG somewhat painted themselves into a corner with Scum. On the one hand, part of the draw of Scum is the crazy shenanigans a Scum player gets to play with. On the other hand, these shenanigans can easily become OP or NPE if not reigned in. What is FFG to do? If they make these abilities too expensive, Scum players will feel that they're unfairly being pushed out of the game. If the abilities are too cheap, everyone else will feel that Scum are dominating and/or ruining the game.

For example, someone earlier said that the Quadjumper is too expensive to really consider taking in a list anymore. Yet we've already seen it much cheaper, and most people did not much enjoy facing seven of the things. In many cases, doubtless there is a cost that balances both sides, but is this always the case?

I think that they can simply limit the number of particular ships that you can have in one 200 point squad, e.g.: 3(?) Quadjumpers, 2 Upsilons, 4 X/B, 3 Silencers.. Instead of overpricing generics. It would be much simpler.

I do think that the tug boats need to have a points adjustment, one of the best suggestions I have come across is the initiative weighting should be inverted so low initiative ships cost more than high initiative. The justification is that the ship ability is better at low initiative.

Does anyone have any recent experience with the Boba+Fenn+L3-37(/Lando) archetype? How is it holding up to the new stuff?

I like the idea of thematic squads having extra bonuses or synergies.

Black Sun Syndicate. Cost 0 pts. Scum only.

This ship can equip one free modification.

3 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

I think that they can simply limit the number of particular ships that you can have in one 200 point squad, e.g.: 3(?) Quadjumpers, 2 Upsilons, 4 X/B, 3 Silencers.. Instead of overpricing generics. It would be much simpler.

The problem here is that a specific restriction like that for Scum will cause the same outcry as if the ships are too expensive. In addition, it will give an unfair advantage to other factions who have no such restrictions, if things change in a future points update. For me, I think that if FFG were going to be expanding "dotspace" in their design, as is evident from the prequel faction content, (i.e. limited numbers of specific ships such as the Haor Chall Prototype or Naboo Handmaidens), they should have included some on the generics for the re-released Scum stuff in the conversion kits, way back at the start. A three-dot limit on Jakku Gunrunner, for example, would have solved the problem before it even came up.

12 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

**** if the adventures of prequel-Solo and Lando continues, we might see Qi’ra go full Sith-mode. I’d be soooooooo down for that.

And most of all Scum lacks a definitive synergy. One thing FFG could do, is explore the sub-factions Scum has to offer. Maybe give some incentive or perk for buiding a thematic force that consists of one group. Maybe not to the ricdiculous extent a steampunk beatdown game went, but maybe something that just recognizes “Hey, you took a specific Hutt Cartel, so illicit upgrades all have 1 extra charge on them.” Or “by taking only IG-88s, you get to Kill All MEATBAGS and reroll 1 attack die while attacking a ship with a Focus token on it’s action bar.” Or “you’ve got nothing but Mandal Motors ships and Mandolorians, so force users don’t regenerate force if they’re within range 1 of you, because **** them!” But at the same time any perk shouldn’t be gamebreakingly nasty, or so good to the point of discouraging players from taking the ships they want.

Qi'ra isn't Force-sensitive; she just works with Maul and has advanced combat training. I do like the idea of thematic building, though. That could be easily added - give something like the Kimogila or M-3A a configuration slot and release a card pack that contains specific configurations like "Desilijic Enforcer" or "Car'das Interceptor".

1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Black Sun Syndicate. Cost 0 pts. Scum only.

This ship can equip one free modification.

That seems like overdoing it. If you have 4 ships, you can give them a 6pt mod for free? 24pt for free in a 200pt game... yeah right.

On 9/18/2019 at 2:02 PM, Cazar said:

Now that FFG have weakened the factions strongest archetype, only 15th on metawing, as part of the latest rules reference update. Scum are no longer competitive. Discuss...

I assume you mean in Hyperspace, right? The Kihraxz is the ship that makes Scum work in my mind. It's an excellent and cheap ship with a great dial (both 1 hard and 1 bank). 3 Cartel Marauders are the meat of most lists I fly. My best record with a 2nd Ed list is Scum. I have not tried it with Jedi, though.

2 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

I like the idea of thematic squads having extra bonuses or synergies.

I have played a lot of games with this mechanic.

I have never played a game where it didn't feel wildly imbalanced...

Four Black Sun Assassins, all with Crack shot, is about as much fun as I've had flying any list.

6 hours ago, Yearfire said:

Does anyone have any recent experience with the Boba+Fenn+L3-37(/Lando) archetype? How is it holding up to the new stuff?

April... Old experience only sry

4 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

That seems like overdoing it. If you have 4 ships, you can give them a 6pt mod for free? 24pt for free in a 200pt game... yeah right.

I wouldn’t recommend any free upgrades, unless it’s something specific like Deadman’s Switch. But a small perk such as reducing the cost of all mods by 1pt in the thematic squadron wouldn’t be too much.

4 hours ago, svelok said:

I have played a lot of games with this mechanic.

I have never played a game where it didn't feel wildly imbalanced...

That would be the challenge to implementing it. Without calling out the games by name, I know what you’re talking about. Especially in the most recent editions where it has become impossible to keep track of or remember all the massive perks they receive.

I’m thinking something kept deliberately as a smal perk, that doesn’t add too much. Just a little bit of a nod to the differing factions, and maybe even just going as far as minor discounts in list building or squadron setup (e.g. an extra charge on illicits), or situational bonuses that could easily end up useless in the right situation. If anything, the other mentioned games should be used as cautionary tales, and an example of how much is too much.

8 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

I think that they can simply limit the number of particular ships that you can have in one 200 point squad, e.g.: 3(?) Quadjumpers, 2 Upsilons, 4 X/B, 3 Silencers.. Instead of overpricing generics. It would be much simpler.

Staaaaaaaahp. This is not true, as many times as I keep hearing it.

Either:

a) A ship is not worth its points, so people rarely use it except in certain jank combos that aren't good anyway

b) A ship is worth its points, so people will use it that want to but won't if they don't, and a spam list won't be effective because all spam lists that use only a single ship type (that are appropriately costed) have major blind spots and hard counters

c) A ship is underpriced and it will be in too many lists, whether in spam lists or just as a filler in a lot of meta lists, because its points are too efficient and you can fit too much of it with other stuff.

The only exception is

d) Items with a force-multiplying effect like Howlrunner, Juke, etc. These should either be Unique, extremely expensive, or some combination of the above. Juke was ubiquitous because it was cheap and not limited. Now it's balanced. Howl is still ubiquitous because she's grossly underpriced (she needs a 5-6 point hike and then it would balance out; they could decrease the others by a point and we'd see more diversity). I could potentially see a case for Ensnare or Quadjumpers being a force-multiplying effect, which would make a reasonable case for limiting the chassis, but raising the price just a little makes more sense and prevents comboing with alternative platforms that grant similar effects for too cheap (limit the quads to 3 and people just take it with Ketsu for example).

Other than that, there's no specific reason to limit a ship's chassis; be it a Jumpmaster, a TIE Interceptor, or an X-Wing, if it's not worth its points, it won't get taken enough. If it's worth more than its points, it will get taken too much (in singles or spam). If it's priced right, it will be taken enough but not too much; people who like it will play it, but the spam list won't be broken because spam lists aren't good unless the chassis is underpriced.

Case study: The Cartel Marauder. At release, they were 40 points, making 5 cartel marauders possible. Coming off the tail end of 2.0 where 5 X-Wings were wrecking everything, many people were worried that 5 Cartel Marauders would be too strong. As it turns out, they weren't that good because they're too easily out-aced or initiative-killed, and they've since been decreased by 2 points. At this point, the Cartel Marauder itself is doing quite well as filler in diverse lists. But the 5x DMS Cartel Marauder spam list still isn't good for the same reasons as before.

In short, costing is everything. Don't worry too much about spam thresholds; spam will always be jank unless the chassis is underpriced in other contexts as well. Focus more on the value-per-point that a ship brings to the table. If that's right, the rest just falls in.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But the 5x DMS Cartel Marauder spam list still isn't good for the same reasons as before.

...except it is good.

25 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

...except it is good.

https://meta.listfortress.com/ship_combos?

Meta wing disagrees, k spam isn't making waves in the cut.

It is a solid list but isn't competitive, Torkill + k's is better in my opinion.

On 9/18/2019 at 4:19 PM, It’s One Of Ours said:

A ship isn’t “Tractored” until it has equal tractor tokens to it’s size (1 - Small, 2 - Medium, 3 - Large). In order to have a debuff to Agility, a ship needs to be Tractored. And in order to move a ship with a Tractor token, it must be Tractored. So a single tractor token doesn’t have an affect on a large ship, until the larger ship has accumulated enough tokens to affect it that turn. I’m not sure what else exactly...

Just a clarification: A ship has always only been "tractored" when it had enough tokens based on ship size. The differences now are that a ship only moves on the first time it is tractored each round, and it has to be tractored to have reduced agility.

22 minutes ago, Cazar said:

https://meta.listfortress.com/ship_combos?

Meta wing disagrees, k spam isn't making waves in the cut.

It is a solid list but isn't competitive, Torkill + k's is better in my opinion.

The thing about spam lists, is that they attempt to capitalize on the strengths of a specific ship, while adding redundancy. The problem to spam lists, is they also capitalize on the problems the specific ship has.

For something like a Tie fighter, their main problem is low hit points, no target locks, and 2 attack dice. Howl augments that with a really nice force multiplier for them. But spamming Khyrraxs is different... It’s a snub-fighter filling a similar role as the X-Wing, just cheaper and not quite the same level of quality. And it lacks an ace with a force multiplier. It’s a great filler ship, but the benefits of running it in a spam swarm are purely for redundancy and having 3 attack dice per ship. The downsides to the K-swarm is that it’s more susceptible to crit effects than it’s counterparts, has no 3 turns or 1-straight, and highly maneuverable aces will treat them much the same as they would treat a swarm of Ties, just fewer of them, individually slightly more durable, and more lethal if caught in their front arc(s). Also they Tallon Roll.

Personally I would offset the K-swarm with something else to add in there. Such as swapping two of them out for Ion Scyks with Hull Upgrades, and spending 6 remaining points on... something.

1 hour ago, Cazar said:

https://meta.listfortress.com/ship_combos?

Meta wing disagrees, k spam isn't making waves in the cut.

It is a solid list but isn't competitive, Torkill + k's is better in my opinion.

Can't find it on my phone. Will have to check later. I don't always trust who takes what to tournaments as the be all, end all. It can be a bit of an echo chamber with few people of skill trying things.

I do agree that a mixed list is better. My best list is 3 K's, Scyk with Tractor, and Misthunter.

Did someone say something happened to Cikatro Vizago? What rule did they change there?

8 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

That seems like overdoing it. If you have 4 ships, you can give them a 6pt mod for free? 24pt for free in a 200pt game... yeah right.

Could limit it to just black sun starviper generics and z.95 black sun generics. Increase the base cost to 3 and its about right. Cybernetics costa 3 now and previously Leia crew was 2? And she was essentially a cybernetics for all 4 ships. That was silly and obviously OP but ffg let it happen.