32 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Add Han Gunner and you've got a stew going.

More seriously, I think a big reason the YV isn't played is that its role overlaps with the drastically more efficient cartel executioner. A cartel with r5-p8 is efficient, tanky, well modded and more maneuverable than the old bus.

One YV that I did have fun with was latts razzi, since she brings a tractor beam ability, making her a dangerous brawler. I flew @Dalli's list, which featured IG-88D on koshka, cybernetics 4-lom, the nashtah pup, and latts razzi with unkar plutt and 000. Unkar plutt was 100% the MVP on the YV-666, especially with the knowledge that I had a pup ready to deploy when it finally died.

Say... Han Gunner would work.

Bossk gets 5 turns of double-mods (Focus and either Reinforce or Lock) and a fully open dial. Costs 85 points, which is a lot. Trandoshan Shaver would come in at 75, which is a bit cheaper.

I love how bait-y this thread is.

There ya go... Ya got me!!

_____

No, I actually think Scum is secretly the best faction right now.

Boba is still S-tier in almost any configuration in my book.

Loaded Guri is S-tier.

Resistance can't really say the same for Poe... He has to pay 18 points for BB8 Primed just to pretend to be Guri for two turns.

Scum and Empire and maybe then Seps tied with Jedi are the only factions with S-tier squads right now.

That's my hot take.

@theBitterFig I'd go the slaver, since you're unlikely to get 10pts worth of value from Bossk's ability, and being lower init isn't so important on a ship that wants to die after 5 turns.

If you feel like flying bossk, I'd consider building him real lightweight with just hounds tooth, nashtah pup, greedo, and perhaps one or two cheap crew.

3 minutes ago, gadwag said:

@theBitterFig I'd go the slaver, since you're unlikely to get 10pts worth of value from Bossk's ability, and being lower init isn't so important on a ship that wants to die after 5 turns.

If you feel like flying bossk, I'd consider building him real lightweight with just hounds tooth, nashtah pup, greedo, and perhaps one or two cheap crew.

Yeah, probably. BT-1 Bossk might have a place in the right list with 4-LOM, maybe a cheap Koshka Frost with 0-0-0, but for the full-on Jabba/Han (Carbonite build YV-666?), he's probably not the right pilot.

But there may also be a use for Moralo Eval. Considering how well this build can stall, being able to place him somewhere nice early could be a handy ability.

33 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But there may also be a use for Moralo Eval. Considering how well this build can stall, being able to place him somewhere nice early could be a handy ability.

Possibly, but you're already spending a lot of points on a 5-turn ship, especially when the r5-p8 cartel executioner is so cheap and does a lot of the same stuff.

I think I'm going to try a budget greedo bossk and then if I'm feeling really silly I might try moralo with a docked Z.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Say... Han Gunner would work.

Bossk gets 5 turns of double-mods (Focus and either Reinforce or Lock) and a fully open dial. Costs 85 points, which is a lot. Trandoshan Shaver would come in at 75, which is a bit cheaper.

Oh my gosh.

I don't even know the full context of this conversation, and I'm thinking that 85 point Bossk with a 180 arc is a monster.

Another S-tier?

Hey, were on a roll here, guys.

Keep 'em coming...

im liking the fight scum players have here. its giving me some inspiration to revamp some scum lists iv previously played with a few tweaks here and there.

Dengar is better than most people think. Just with title he's a real threat.

Bossk is solid, even without the title he can dish out the hurt. Greedo works well on him too. Sometimes I feel like I want Greedo on Dengar and Bossk in the same list

Kavil hits hard and is def worth the points.

Captain Seevor seems to be the best filler ship scum has at 30pts and feels like he's picked up the slack in the 30pts ship range that was left when the escape shuttle got a bit too pricey.

Black Sun Assassin's are no longer the secret sauce they once were. I slept on the for the longest time. 2-4 of these buggers are pains in the rear... I'm liking the idea of pairing two of em with a higher initiative guy... Firespray name pilot seems good... maybe even guri leaving a bid of 15-19pts could work nicely.

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:41 PM, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

some ideas for illicit buffs...

OPTION 1. All illicit upgrades get a 1 point cost reduction. Scum only. Might make Contraband too cheap at 2pts.

OPTION 2. Make Deadman's Switch free for scum only. Might see some kamikaze Z-95's about as filler ships then.

OPTION 3. Make Inertial Dampeners cost 1 or free for scum only. ID was only abused by rebel Han right?

OPTION 4. Give scum its own series of Scum Only illicit upgrades. Why not?

OPTION 5. Scum illicit upgrades do not count towards your squad points for calculating initiative. Scum only. Probably too game altering an not sustainable over time as new content is released.

OPTION 6. Errata Jabba Crew so that all illicit upgrades in the same squad are free. Right now illicit are hardly worth the investment in points. This should give rise to some thematic scum squads and encourage the more use of both the customised YT-1300 and YV-666.

thoughts?

@gadwag @Hiemfire @Cuz05 @svelok @Ikka @Scum4Life @Oldpara @theBitterFig @Kleeg005

I like 1 and 4- Contraband is a one-shot, so I don't think 2 points is too little for it and none of the others are really worthwhile. Scum should have its own Illicits, stuff that is too illegal or morally questionable for Rebels or "freedom fighters" to use.

2 minutes ago, Ikka said:

Scum should have its own Illicits, stuff that is too illegal or morally questionable for Rebels or "freedom fighters" to use.

Agree! ffg have left scum in limbo with the illicit being so-so and barely playable for their points...them reducing contraband from 6pts to 3pts was a good start. but c'mon lets give scum something to work with here! You want to play x-wing on hard mode? play scum versus tried and tested competitive lists from another faction... the struggle is real.

11 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Agree! ffg have left scum in limbo with the illicit being so-so and barely playable for their points...them reducing contraband from 6pts to 3pts was a good start. but c'mon lets give scum something to work with here! You want to play x-wing on hard mode? play scum versus tried and tested competitive lists from another faction... the struggle is real.

True. I would like to see something like Glitterstim back, having drugs influence your pilot is a very scummy thing to do. Maybe some more cybernetic augmentations, one that swaps out an Evade token for two Calculate tokens or the like. Having more unique, and uniquely Scum, Illicits would go a long way to making Scum a faction with some really interesting options.

5 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Boba is still S-tier in almost any configuration in my book.

Loaded Guri is S-tier.

That is one squad/two ships. There are a few decent pilots in Scum, there is no question about that, but the main problem Scum has is that there are very few good lists. Trying to fit in an "S-tier" Scum ship into a list leads to compromises on the amount of other ships/pilots you have- Scum is supposed to be about tricks but when you don't have the option to put in one of the great pilots with a decent selection of other mid-level pilots but rather have to balance out your list with generic filler ships it makes playing the faction very frustrating.

On 10/9/2019 at 4:41 AM, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

some ideas for illicit buffs...

OPTION 1. All illicit upgrades get a 1 point cost reduction. Scum only. Might make Contraband too cheap at 2pts.

OPTION 2. Make Deadman's Switch free for scum only. Might see some kamikaze Z-95's about as filler ships then.

OPTION 3. Make Inertial Dampeners cost 1 or free for scum only. ID was only abused by rebel Han right?

OPTION 4. Give scum its own series of Scum Only illicit upgrades. Why not?

OPTION 5. Scum illicit upgrades do not count towards your squad points for calculating initiative. Scum only. Probably too game altering an not sustainable over time as new content is released.

OPTION 6. Errata Jabba Crew so that all illicit upgrades in the same squad are free. Right now illicit are hardly worth the investment in points. This should give rise to some thematic scum squads and encourage the more use of both the customised YT-1300 and YV-666.

1) Not all. But some are clearly too expensive (or other stuff is undercosted).

The most egregious one: Compare Rebel Leia to Contraband Cybernetics. Leia 6pts for potential 3times use, NOT generating stress, for ALL ships in your squad. CC is 3 points, one time use, one single ship, and stress is kept. That is just not fair.

If Quinn Jast (and only he) could equip Illicits, then we would have more than one use.

4) I would love to see some weaker version of 1ed Lightning reflexes as a Cybernetics upgrade in the Illicit slot. That was so fun to unexpectedly and sudenly turn your bricks of Kihraxes etc around.

5) too much.

6) Might be too much of a reduction, but Jabba, as well as the now even more nerfed Cikatro have problems fitting within 200pts and being able to win their points back in 75mins. So some reduction would be nice.

17 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

One thing that still bugs me about the Scum faction is that we have a lot of pilots or upgrades that are simply not worth bringing to the table because they simply do not work against multiple popular archetypes:

- Genesis Red: First of he’s initiative 4, so that’s horrible to acquire a target lock. And then it won’t work against the Force (which will initially just want to take a target lock) and calculate tokens.

- Palob: without the title, he is a hindrance. With the title, 58 points is a lot for something that might not work against the Force or calculate tokens.

- Kimogila Dalan Oberos: the timing of his ability is horrible. If it was “Before you engage” then his ability might be a useful deterrent for opponents to attack him. As it is, the fact that all conditions must be met to activate his ability makes it almost impossible to trigger before being destroyed or the opponent losing the shields you want to steal.

- Ketsu Onyo (crew): not sure how to make use of her with the current tractor beam rule set.

- Etc.

Many card and abilities were originally designed and priced when both the force and calculate tokens were relatively rare / new. Now that they are more widespread, points could either use a tweak or abilities altered so that they take it into account.

This so much. I played Genesis a lot in the begining of 2nd edition. He had also a side effect of people taking rather TLs than focus or evade if he was near, making their defense against my other ships weaker.

Nowadays, with force users and tactical relays running rampage, he is just not worth it. Same problem for Palob and partly Old Teroch (he removes at least calculates, but against force he is equally powerless).

Dalan is imho a trap. He costs 3pts more than Cartel Executioner, but is really difficult to get to effect. He does nothing against unshielded opponents, and he has as outlined above the problem, that he either is still at full shields, or next rounds until he has a chance to get bullseye again, he is either dead, or the intended target is shieldless as well. I rather took 2 Executioners in my squad.

5 minutes ago, Ikka said:

True. I would like to see something like Glitterstim back, having drugs influence your pilot is a very scummy thing to do. Maybe some more cybernetic augmentations, one that swaps out an Evade token for two Calculate tokens or the like. Having more unique, and uniquely Scum, Illicits would go a long way to making Scum a faction with some really interesting options.

Glitterstim was really thematic, and on the ships with few blues (greens) balanced.

Your last suggestion sounds interesting. It might very well be something the presumable robotic new Scyk pilot from Hotshots and Aces could have.

17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

* Bonus Jabba build idea: Bossk (Jabba, BT-1, Contraband Cybernetics) 75 points. Basically, once you start to Contraband, you can keep using Jabba to refresh it each turn, and have 5 turns when you can ignore stress. You'll be ****ed afterwards, but if Bossk lives through those 5 turns, well... you've probably won the game otherwise. Could also be a Trandoshan skipping BT-1 for 63 points of... well... party bus doesn't seem the right term, since Jabba on there alone, but still.

The 63pt version is of course called

Jabba on the dais

1 hour ago, Ikka said:

I would like to see something like Glitterstim back

In terms of the effect, we've already got Maul

54 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

The 63pt version is of course called

Jabba on the dais

If you have Jabba and Han on the same ship, the name is "Han mah boogie!"

9 minutes ago, gadwag said:

In terms of the effect, we've already got Maul

As a crew, for a very high point cost. I would much rather have a one-shot Illicit that can go on any Scum ship rather than just a ship that can run with crew slots.

54 minutes ago, Ikka said:

As a crew, for a very high point cost. I would much rather have a one-shot Illicit that can go on any Scum ship rather than just a ship that can run with crew slots.

Honestly, glitterstim was pretty bonkers and I don't want to see it back in 2.0. Even if it did come back, it wouldn't help many of the struggling ships and pilots.

Glitterstim
At the start of the combat phase, you may spend 1 charge and gain a stress token. If you do, gain 1 calculate token.
[1 charge, non-recurring]

That's a very heavily nerfed version of 1.0 glitterstim, but it still makes it easy to get double mods if you have high enough init to take a target lock. That means that low-init pilots won't take it, and it will be best suited to the pilots that are already seeing play (like boba). Once you look at it as "this card gives you double mods for one turn" it becomes a raw efficiency card, so either it costs too much (and no one takes it) or it's too cheap (and it's stapled to every scum ship). There's no nuance or interesting play in the card, it's just a free calculate. It's also very similar to Han Gunner. Sure, it's single use, but the first engagement is the most important part of the game anyway.

I do think FFG can (and should) print some more interesting new illicits at some stage. I don't think they will be the saving grace of scum though - you don't want to make (almost) every scum ship take the same illicit.

To me it seems that for the beginner Scum seem to be easy, they look good on paper because most of their ships are quite good themselves, they do not really need coordinate flying and have a lot of shenanigans, but competitively they have high skill cap to be successful and there are many more consistent and easier to fly lists in the meta. Similar situation seems to be with the First Order, on paper they look good but high skill cap is required.

19 hours ago, dunhop said:

I agree with all of you that the illicit slot and all upgrades are currently over-costed. Bringing all illicit upgrades down 1 point still wont make them all see more play, but it might help. A wider variety of upgrades would be a very welcome addition. I've enjoyed the multiple threads out there that bring up ideas for more illicit upgrades, maybe we should make those one of the top threads to grab the developer's eyes. Another idea I've been having is that Scum is a bunch of individuals flying the uniquely modified ships. I like how the Firespray has 3 titles, and each makes the ship fly differently. There should be a lot more titles for scum ships to show how unique they all are. New titles could upgrade some of the old 1e abilities that don't function as well in 2e.

I really like this idea. Perhaps it could be tackled in a future card pack and breath some new life into exciting ships. Some could even be pilot specific if people are worrisome about Combo-wing

I threw down a naked Fenn and four HLC-totes last night in a three-way against a BYXX and a 2xFO/3xSF. It's an extremely high variance list, even if you fly perfectly. Even in such a target-rich environment, I think I only managed six or seven HLC shots, two of which were devastating and one of which was a total whiff. Fenn only managed three Range 1 shots (but that's more due to my perhaps over-cautious flying) and two Range 1 defenses - which shots one whiffed and two erased opponents's damaged ships. On the flip side, Fenn only survived due to low variance on the other side - my green dice weren't terribly present, and Fenn at Range 1 with Concordia Faceoff active still managed to get ionized. And one of the Scyks was one-shotted due to a crit-cascade and zero evades rolled. It was reasonably fun to fly, though. I've been feeling the need to learn to fly Ace-like pilots, but as I don't do Imperial or Jedi I'm sort of stuck with Fenn - especially as I expect Sun Fac to get nuked pretty soon here - and he's...not easy mode. And I wanted to get all four of my Scyks on the table at the same time.

And the First Order, jeez. TIE/fo is two points cheaper than the Scyk for the same i1 base model: same stat line, same action bar, but with a significantly better dial and swapping the cannon slot for a tech slot. WTF? But we've been over this.

Embrace variance: fly Scum! On casual night, at least.

9 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

im liking the fight scum players have here. its giving me some inspiration to revamp some scum lists iv previously played with a few tweaks here and there.

Dengar is better than most people think. Just with title he's a real threat.

Bossk is solid, even without the title he can dish out the hurt. Greedo works well on him too. Sometimes I feel like I want Greedo on Dengar and Bossk in the same list - So build it!!!

Kavil hits hard and is def worth the points.

Captain Seevor seems to be the best filler ship scum has at 30pts and feels like he's picked up the slack in the 30pts ship range that was left when the escape shuttle got a bit too pricey.

Black Sun Assassin's are no longer the secret sauce they once were. I slept on the for the longest time. 2-4 of these buggers are pains in the rear... I'm liking the idea of pairing two of em with a higher initiative guy... Firespray name pilot seems good... maybe even guri leaving a bid of 15-19pts could work nicely.

Good to hear!

5 hours ago, gadwag said:

Honestly, glitterstim was pretty bonkers and I don't want to see it back in 2.0. Even if it did come back, it wouldn't help many of the struggling ships and pilots.

Glitterstim
At the start of the combat phase, you may spend 1 charge and gain a stress token. If you do, gain 1 calculate token.
[1 charge, non-recurring]

That's a very heavily nerfed version of 1.0 glitterstim, but it still makes it easy to get double mods if you have high enough init to take a target lock. That means that low-init pilots won't take it, and it will be best suited to the pilots that are already seeing play (like boba). Once you look at it as "this card gives you double mods for one turn" it becomes a raw efficiency card, so either it costs too much (and no one takes it) or it's too cheap (and it's stapled to every scum ship). There's no nuance or interesting play in the card, it's just a free calculate. It's also very similar to Han Gunner. Sure, it's single use, but the first engagement is the most important part of the game anyway.

I do think FFG can (and should) print some more interesting new illicits at some stage. I don't think they will be the saving grace of scum though - you don't want to make (almost) every scum ship take the same illicit.

Interesting take - I don't know about the Calculate, though. Focus would be more thematically appropriate, and allow a great many more Scum ships access to a Han-Gunner like ability. Cost it out at 7 - 10 points, and you've got a winner! Alternatively, I could see something like this:

Glitterstim

At the start of the Combat phase, you may spend 1 charge. Change one [Focus] result to a [Hit] or [Evade] result. That die cannot be further modified this round.

[2 charges, non-recurring]

This would be a more fun ability, I think, and give the Scum a non-Force soft mod that has a Force-like ability, while remaining thematic. I'd probably cost it at about 7 or 8.

43 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

Interesting take - I don't know about the Calculate, though. Focus would be more thematically appropriate, and allow a great many more Scum ships access to a Han-Gunner like ability. Cost it out at 7 - 10 points, and you've got a winner! Alternatively, I could see something like this:

Glitterstim

At the start of the Combat phase, you may spend 1 charge. Change one [Focus] result to a [Hit] or [Evade] result. That die cannot be further modified this round.

[2 charges, non-recurring]

This would be a more fun ability, I think, and give the Scum a non-Force soft mod that has a Force-like ability, while remaining thematic. I'd probably cost it at about 7 or 8.

Do not want. This is just spending points for zero-effort mods - the least interesting type of upgrade.

My Glitterstim would be 1 charge, 1 stress, 1 eye to hit-or-evade. That's it. One face change once per game. "While you defend or perform an attack, you may spend one charge to... etc etc."

I think it'd still be quite good, particularly since it could be cheap... 2-3 points?

8 hours ago, gadwag said:

If you have Jabba and Han on the same ship, the name is "Han mah boogie!"

I still like Carbonite.

12 hours ago, gadwag said:

Possibly, but you're already spending a lot of points on a 5-turn ship, especially when the r5-p8 cartel executioner is so cheap and does a lot of the same stuff.

I think I'm going to try a budget greedo bossk and then if I'm feeling really silly I might try moralo with a docked Z.

Run both?

But the R5-P8 Executioner doesn't appear anywhere along a map edge to ensure good position. Also, Moralo has the 180 firing arc. Moralo's mobility just seems worth trying out, mostly.

1 hour ago, gadwag said:

Do not want. This is just spending points for zero-effort mods - the least interesting type of upgrade.

Fair enough. It's not like we have any faction that can do that anyway *cough* Republic *cough*

15 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I love how bait-y this thread is.

There ya go... Ya got me!!

_____

No, I actually think Scum is secretly the best faction right now.

Boba is still S-tier in almost any configuration in my book.

Loaded Guri is S-tier.

Resistance can't really say the same for Poe... He has to pay 18 points for BB8 Primed just to pretend to be Guri for two turns.

Scum and Empire and maybe then Seps tied with Jedi are the only factions with S-tier squads right now.

That's my hot take.

I’m not a fan of the whole “tier” rating idea for X-Wing. Or most games, for that matter. Tier ratings largely spawned from uber-competitive e-sports gaming, and always ends up being mostly conjecture with heaping amounts of personal bias.

In X-Wing, it can be difficult to gauge a pilot (or build’s) worth because everyone tends to focus more on Initiative. If they’re not at least a 5, then they automatically get dumped to “Tier Fail”. Board-state knowledge for repositioning is great and all, but there are so many awesome pilots that get overlooked simply because they don’t fill a lot of someone’s theory of “it needs at least I-5 or it dies.” I could mention Jek Porkins until I’m blue in the fingers, but I’ll keep it on topic and instead mention names like Dalan Oberos (Starviper), Quin “I have unlimited Afterburners” Jast, just about everyone who flies a Mining Tie, and **** I even made Manaroo work with IG-88D on board and IG-88A. Think about that last one for a second... and pair the two off with someone like Guri or 4-Lom. The calculate-sharing shenanigans you can pull are on par with CIS.

I don’t disagree that Boba Fett and Guri are the faction powerhouses, or that a few others could be held in equal regard (*cough* Fen Rau or Old Teroch). But rating things by Tiers is on the EA-tier of tabletop gaming (near the ******* bottom).

8 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I’m not a fan of the whole “tier” rating idea for X-Wing. Or most games, for that matter. Tier ratings largely spawned from uber-competitive e-sports gaming, and always ends up being mostly conjecture with heaping amounts of personal bias.

I am. It helps me see who has their head up their ***, how far it is stuck up there and what faction or archetype they think should be the best. Depending on the attitude of the post it also helps me assess if they qualify for the ignore list.

10 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I could mention Jek Porkins until I’m blue in the fingers, but I’ll keep it on topic and instead mention names like Dalan Oberos (Starviper), Quin “I have unlimited Afterburners” Jast, just about everyone who flies a Mining Tie, and **** I even made Manaroo work with IG-88D on board and IG-88A. Think about that last one for a second... and pair the two off with someone like Guri or 4-Lom. The calculate-sharing shenanigans you can pull are on par with CIS.

Zuvio is also good and fun (to stay in faction, my addition to your out of faction list is Ved, I agree Jek is good). Pointing out several single ships and one combo doesn't = the faction is good as a whole though...

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I am. It helps me see who has their head up their ***, how far it is stuck up there and what faction or archetype they think should be the best. Depending on the attitude of the post it also helps me assess if they qualify for the ignore list.

Zuvio is also good and fun (to stay in faction, my addition to your out of faction list is Ved, I agree Jek is good). Pointing out several single ships and one combo doesn't = the faction is good as a whole though...

I can see using the tier ratings as a way to gauge the person who came up with the tier list. But only in that way. And it does make me question what other games they have played, especially tabletop.

Zuvio is indeed criminally overlooked, in no small part because of how ubiquitous and cheap a Jakku Gunrunner can be. And I absolutely agree that a few good pilots and combos don’t suddenly make a faction on par with the others. I think Scum’s biggest issue is it’s thematic lack of synergy. CIS and Republic synergize disturbingly well. And they’re so new that players aren’t used to them, and the devs haven’t had much opportunity to truly reign in some of their more egregious issues. Rebels, Resistance, Empire, and First Order have varying levels of synergy that fits with their style and theme. But Scum have much less in the way of working together, outside of specific pilots like the IGs, or Serissu. And I feel overall it limits them on coordinate actions.

Also being the faction with the least amount of force users is a problem, as well.

When I consider "S-tier" in Xwing, I think of things that win hard against a majority of matchups.

Ranking individual pilots on tiers could definitely be an overstep.

Ranking builds for an individual pilot against each other is much better.

Ranking a squad is ranking the combinations of higher ranked pieces when put together.

One could argue labels, but piece and squad rankings are what metas are made of.

Just because something isn't "S-tier", doesn't mean it's not good.

It might just be unproven in a larger event or whatever.