9 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

I've used kamikaze-95 lists and they suck. Period.

The kamikaze Z is decent against a swarm, but they really struggle against ships with decent mobility (both small and large based). Back when most aces had 3-4 HP and could be blocked, like soontir or Fenn, the exploding Z was a credible threat, but it still had to work very very hard to not just get sniped at long range. Now, a lot of aces have 5+ base health and regen, or can tractor the Z away so it explodes on friendly ships when it dies.

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

some ideas for illicit buffs...

OPTION 1. All illicit upgrades get a 1 point cost reduction. Scum only. Might make Contraband too cheap at 2pts.

OPTION 2. Make Deadman's Switch free for scum only. Might see some kamikaze Z-95's about as filler ships then.

OPTION 3. Make Inertial Dampeners cost 1 or free for scum only. ID was only abused by rebel Han right?

OPTION 4. Give scum its own series of Scum Only illicit upgrades. Why not?

OPTION 5. Scum illicit upgrades do not count towards your squad points for calculating initiative. Scum only. Probably too game altering an not sustainable over time as new content is released.

OPTION 6. Errata Jabba Crew so that all illicit upgrades in the same squad are free. Right now illicit are hardly worth the investment in points. This should give rise to some thematic scum squads and encourage the more use of both the customised YT-1300 and YV-666.

thoughts?

@gadwag @Hiemfire @Cuz05 @svelok @Ikka @Scum4Life @Oldpara @theBitterFig @Kleeg005

3 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

some ideas for illicit buffs...

OPTION 4. Give scum its own series of Scum Only illicit upgrades. Why not?

thoughts?

@gadwag @Hiemfire @Cuz05 @svelok @Ikka @Scum4Life @Oldpara @theBitterFig @Kleeg005

This one I like. The others not so much.

Removal of the 1 point slot tax (instead of reducing the costs of Illicits across the board) would also go a fair way towards fixing things.

ID on Boba can be almost as nasty as it was on Rebel Han pilot. I understand why they adjusted it and Seasoned Nav in the way they did (frankly surprised Slave 1 title didn't get the same or similar treatment).

Personally I lean towards the inclusion of non-jedi/sith force talents as limited Illicit upgrades (1 or 2 pip) to the pilot and Illicit refits that affect what the primary attack does.

29 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

This one I like. The others not so much.

Removal of the 1 point slot tax (instead of reducing the costs of Illicits across the board) would also go a fair way towards fixing things.

ID on Boba can be almost as nasty as it was on Rebel Han pilot. I understand why they adjusted it and Seasoned Nav in the way they did (frankly surprised Slave 1 title didn't get the same or similar treatment).

Personally I lean towards the inclusion of non-jedi/sith force talents as limited Illicit upgrades (1 or 2 pip) to the pilot and Illicit refits that affect what the primary attack does.

Yeah, this is on my wish list for future card packs, more than new pilots I think scum really needs new illicit that promote building new squads with what they already have. It makes a lot of sense. Give scum its own upgrades. I've given up on the pipe dream of scum getting a force using pilot/ace in a small ship. Not going to happen. So lets work with scums strength or what should be their strength, illicit upgrades that give them a real point of difference from the other 6 factions.

1 minute ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Yeah, this is on my wish list for the card packs, more than new pilots I think scum really needs new illicit that promote building new squads with what they already have. It makes a lot of sense. Give scum its own upgrades. I've given up on the pipe dream of scum getting a force using pilot/ace in a small ship. Not going to happen. So lets work with scums strength or what should be their strength, illicit upgrades that give them a real point of difference from the other 6 factions.

Also thinking that an Illicit which adds an Astromech slot with the restriction of the ship not already having the Astro slot would be nice.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

Also thinking that an Illicit which adds an Astromech slot with the restriction of the ship not already having the Astro slot would be nice.

good call, this would help out the terrible dial on the jump master as well.

44 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

some ideas for illicit buffs...

OPTION 1. All illicit upgrades get a 1 point cost reduction. Scum only. Might make Contraband too cheap at 2pts.

OPTION 2. Make Deadman's Switch free for scum only. Might see some kamikaze Z-95's about as filler ships then.

OPTION 3. Make Inertial Dampeners cost 1 or free for scum only. ID was only abused by rebel Han right?

OPTION 4. Give scum its own series of Scum Only illicit upgrades. Why not?

OPTION 5. Scum illicit upgrades do not count towards your squad points for calculating initiative. Scum only. Probably too game altering an not sustainable over time as new content is released.

OPTION 6. Errata Jabba Crew so that all illicit upgrades in the same squad are free. Right now illicit are hardly worth the investment in points. This should give rise to some thematic scum squads and encourage the more use of both the customised YT-1300 and YV-666.

thoughts?

@gadwag @Hiemfire @Cuz05 @svelok @Ikka @Scum4Life @Oldpara @theBitterFig @Kleeg005

Dampeners wasn't played (to my knowledge) before the nerf, except on Han. I think it was 100% fine at 1.

I don't know if 2 is too cheap for Cybernetics. It is once per game, after all, and it doesn't deal with the stress, so if you k-turn while stressed... good luck in following turns. Add to that having to pay per ship, and it's probably fine.

I don't think most of the illicits should be free (maybe Deadman's because it is technically also a drawback), since they're all upgrades that do helpful things. We just need more ships that want to do those things and more illicits that actually are helpful. If only Cloaking Device and Rigged Cargo didn't have the ship size restrictions...

8 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

good call, this would help out the terrible dial on the jump master as well.

Not really. R4 Astromech is small ship only.

8 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

good call, this would help out the terrible dial on the jump master as well.

Actually, it wouldn't. The Jumpmaster already gets the astromech slot with Punishing One. The problem is, R4 is Small Ship only.

1 hour ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

@gadwag @Hiemfire @Cuz05 @svelok @Ikka @Scum4Life @Oldpara @theBitterFig @Kleeg005

I see sometimes Cloaking Device, Contraband Cibernetics, Deadman's Switch and Rigged Cargo. All are fairly good, but little bit overcosted.

-1 pts on everything would be useful for sure.

I think more Illicit will come with new ships.

One problem with illicits is, in addition to being overcosted, they're almost all severely limited in use... yet some are priced like they're not. All but a few have 1 or 2 charges and that's it. Dampeners use shields and are useless once those are spent, so by the time you might want to use them, your shields are gone (am I the only one who would prefer even a single charge?). Feedback Array and Coaxium Hyperfuel damage you, making them still limited, but in much more interesting ways. Perhaps there need to be a few more illicits like those. Or if they must be so limited, don't charge us like we're equipping a lasting passive bonus.

And as we've hashed over already, most illicits should be priced separately for scum; if Rebels want illicits they can pay a premium, but scum get each one cheap because it's their god-d@mned faction feature.

I'd like to see some really inventive scum-only illicits: illegal cybernetics or ship's computer enhancements that change how the ship moves, enhance its attack or defense, or give it quirky abilities and behaviors... until they fry, leaving you with a slight debuff (they were illegal for a reason). Along those lines, C1-10P kinda feels like a scum upgrade, but it went to Republic; I guess it pays to be FFG's new girlfriend, haha! Perhaps bring back Attanni Mindlink as an illicit but give it the 2.0 treatment to bring it in line (assuming you can bring that back in any form without it being OP or nerfed garbage). Add an illicit that will hack a ship to make them perform a bonus attack on their ally, or take a hit for you. Mess with their maneuver speed. Black-market slicer them unless they remove a token (or take a stress?). Ram them with a large ship to tractor or ionize them. Create illicits that are conceptually brutal, crazy, or just quirky.

Scum is the bonkers faction that breaks rules and mores, stops at nothing to bag their bounty or take down a target, comes at their opponent sideways. Right now the faction feels so... pedestrian. The price increases, nerfs, and Nantex really took the wind from their sails, but some new faction-locked illicits, mods, titles, etc would go a long way toward restoring their identity.

Or if all else fails... reduce. the. cost.

Scum-only illicits are probably unlikely, as the devs prefer to release upgrades that are more widely usable (at least, that's what they claimed in their AMA). There are very few other ships with illicit slots anyway (renegade X-Wing, renegade U-Wing, Resistance falcon, I think that's it).

I agree that paying a 1pt tax for the illicit slot on scum ships is pretty rude, especially on the Z-95. Ships should pay a slot tax to some degree, but it definitely puts the Z behind the curve because the 1pt tax is a relatively large percentage of the ship's total. More importantly, the Mining TIE comes in a point cheaper than the Z, obsoleting the ship entirely. Note that the scum Y avoids this tax by trading a point of initiative for an illicit slot - not an unreasonable trade.

A lot of scum ships suffer from being 1.0 designs with not a lot of funky tricks, meaning that they rely on either efficiency or pilot abilities to remain relevant. In extended, scum have plenty of good pilot abilities (torkil, 4-lom, sol sixxa) and efficient ships (kimogila, cartel marauder, scurrg) as well as quite a few very useful crew.

Scum will also always seem kinda bad because they have so many ships with overlapping roles. If a ship type becomes less useful, then that invalidates multiple scum ships.

The scum hyperspace offering is considerably weaker, and scum arguably have the largest gap between their hyperspace and extended capability. While scum do have a number of very strong hyperspace ships (starviper, fang, seevor, firespray) they are not particularly well placed in the current meta.

I don't think scum need any magical changes to become a competitive faction. The firespray is already a good ship, it's just a bit awkward finding wingmen for it with the right point costs in hyperspace. The viper and fang are phenomenal, but are weak to the currently-popular nantex (unless they move last, and Phil GC's guri fenn list seems fine for fighting nantexes and precog jedi). Seevor is still great. I think scum could do with a few (small) point tweaks, but for the most part they just need their better ships in hyperspace.

I'm sure we will get plenty of nice toys from The Mandalorian in late 2020.

7 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

@Cuz05

What they said^^^^

Lots of nice ideas.

New tools and tricks are always good to have, but I think they dont solve the problem so much as just add new ways around it.

The problem, as I see it, is just that the available ships at the current prices make it extremely difficult to get a good squad balance.

Select and surgical price reductions would do an awful lot. Room for an extra couple of clutch tools or bid. I mostly find I have to leave key slots empty or I'm a half dozen points short of getting the combo I want in a list.

There are many good ships and pilots in Scum that can do work at top tables, they're just really hard to blend together into a cohesive whole without making major sacrifices atm.

I also play Rep and Imp, largely off meta combos, I simply don't have the same issues there. I can always find room to get the pieces I want and the key upgrades in, one way or another. With Scum, I normally end up having to cut something that is integral to the list, thus rendering the whole build pointless.

Saying that, I still don't feel any sense of emergency aid is needed. It's just really hard work to get where you want to be with a list. It's easier to just throw another faction together rather than slave at some off-kilter combo with Scum for weeks. It's a commitment thing, which I'm sort of ok with, I like having a freaky side dish that no one else will touch.

Would be nice if it was a bit easier though

19 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

And your opponent just doesn't kill it?

I've used kamikaze-95 lists and they suck. Period. Your opponent controls whether they pop or not, you are also forced to keep your own ships at range 2+ of your kamikazes which screws up your approach and follow through.

I think deadmans switch could be 0 points and Unlike jamming beam it would not be an auto include at all.

There is very limited synergy with R5-TK but it isn't free as it still affects how you fly.

There is some worth to chain-reacting them with multiple Deadman's Switch triggers.

One thing that still bugs me about the Scum faction is that we have a lot of pilots or upgrades that are simply not worth bringing to the table because they simply do not work against multiple popular archetypes:

- Genesis Red: First of he’s initiative 4, so that’s horrible to acquire a target lock. And then it won’t work against the Force (which will initially just want to take a target lock) and calculate tokens.

- Palob: without the title, he is a hindrance. With the title, 58 points is a lot for something that might not work against the Force or calculate tokens.

- Kimogila Dalan Oberos: the timing of his ability is horrible. If it was “Before you engage” then his ability might be a useful deterrent for opponents to attack him. As it is, the fact that all conditions must be met to activate his ability makes it almost impossible to trigger before being destroyed or the opponent losing the shields you want to steal.

- Ketsu Onyo (crew): not sure how to make use of her with the current tractor beam rule set.

- Etc.

Many card and abilities were originally designed and priced when both the force and calculate tokens were relatively rare / new. Now that they are more widespread, points could either use a tweak or abilities altered so that they take it into account.

10 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Seems like scums illicit upgrades need an incentive to take them... only contraband cybernetics is seeing regular play. Or are you seeing some other illicits getting to the table?

some ideas for illicit buffs...

thoughts?

Illicits not counting towards opening bid seems like a major headache. Strange Jabba errata seems drastic.*

Making most Illicit upgrades cheaper probably is a decent-enough idea, but I'd skip the scum-only part of it. There aren't many non-Scum illicit ships, and most of them can use some love, too. Folks putting more of Saw's X-Wings on the table would be kinda neat. To that end, it's really a shame that the wonderful plastic Cavern Angel Zealot alt-art from last year's store championships was 1e only...

But mostly, I'd just make a decent amount of Scum styff cheaper. Mostly unplayed stuff like the YV-666 ticks down a little, partial un-nerfs on stuff like Quadjumpers and Han Gunner and Boba Fett and Drea. Does Jabba need to be 6 points? He's a lot more limited than his 1e version, only granting one extra charge per turn. Ketsu crew probably doesn't need to cost 5 points. List probably goes on.

//

Something else which might help: reduce the cost on Expert Handling. Yeah. That'd be great overall.

1 point small, 2 points medium, 3 points large. Probably few Z-95s take it, but it'd be a lot less expensive of an option. Kimogilas might like it, since they've got their bullseye ability. It'd be cool to toss it onto ARCs. Dash Rendar would probably do quite well with it.

//

Something else I've been thinking: the abilities on R4 and R4-P should have been switched. I wouldn't expect FFG to do it now, but I think it would have been a better design. The astromech open to everyone should have been the one where you spend a charge to reduce the difficulty of any basic maneuver. That would have given stuff like the Kimogila and Jumpmaster a nice tool to consider. Meanwhile, the game-warping nature of permanently reduced difficulties could have been faction-locked, and a lot easier to plan around.

* Bonus Jabba build idea: Bossk (Jabba, BT-1, Contraband Cybernetics) 75 points. Basically, once you start to Contraband, you can keep using Jabba to refresh it each turn, and have 5 turns when you can ignore stress. You'll be ****ed afterwards, but if Bossk lives through those 5 turns, well... you've probably won the game otherwise. Could also be a Trandoshan skipping BT-1 for 63 points of... well... party bus doesn't seem the right term, since Jabba on there alone, but still.

I've had some fun with this list. I am not sure however that it would be competitive to the worlds level, but it's a nice one to play:

1 minute ago, dotswarlock said:

One thing that still bugs me about the Scum faction is that we have a lot of pilots or upgrades that are simply not worth bringing to the table because they simply do not work against multiple popular archetypes:

- Genesis Red: First of he’s initiative 4, so that’s horrible to acquire a target lock. And then it won’t work against the Force (which will initially just want to take a target lock) and calculate tokens.

- Palob: without the title, he is a hindrance. With the title, 58 points is a lot for something that might not work against the Force or calculate tokens.

- Kimogila Dalan Oberos: the timing of his ability is horrible. If it was “Before you engage” then his ability might be a useful deterrent for opponents to attack him. As it is, the fact that all conditions must be met to activate his ability makes it almost impossible to trigger before being destroyed or the opponent losing the shields you want to steal.

- Ketsu Onyo (crew): not sure how to make use of her with the current tractor beam rule set.

- Etc.

Many card and abilities were originally designed and priced when both the force and calculate tokens were relatively rare / new. Now that they are more widespread, points could either use a tweak or abilities altered so that they take it into account.

Genesis Red doesn't really pay a lot for his ability. 2 points more than the Init 3 talent generic, for an Init 4 with an ability which--when it works--can be really strong.

Palob, like most of the first wave of Scum nerfs, was probably a bit over-nerfed. The prices can come back down a little.

Kimogila Dalan Oberos had a cool build just starting up when the Han/Inertial Dampeners nerf killed it. When ID was 1 point, Dalan could stall early in combat, spend that shield, then steal one back. With the massive price increase on ID, that kind of lost any appeal.

Ketsu Crew is probably a bit overpriced, but I can kind of see a use for her. Given that Tractors really need to build up on medium and large base ships to get an effect, she'll make that possible. She's also got potential use against Nantex. If they're unable to offload their Tractor token with Ensnare, you can prevent them from repositioning the next round.

5 hours ago, gadwag said:

(renegade X-Wing, renegade U-Wing, Resistance falcon, I think that's it)

The Fireball coming in Wave 6.

Probably brought this up before, but since illicits are so eh I've seen 2nd Ed scum as the "gaggle of cool individuals" faction

I.e defined almost entirely by the gimmicks of their unique pilots and ship titles

The only consistent theme I've seen is that Scum has a lot of great bomb pilots (Emon, sol, nym; zuvio to a far lesser extent). Problem, every bomb pilot overpays for abilities that are worthless without further points investments

So fixing that would help

Most Illicits feel grossly overcosted, especially compared to other upgrades of similar power. We all know how Inertial Dampeners is just plain stoopid, and Contraband Cybernetics feels almost okay - although note that Electronic Baffle is only two points for as many uses as you can stomach. And the story of Coaxium Hyperfuel is just a gigantic "UP YOURS, Scumboy."

But Feedback Array is four points - you spend a decent whack of points to hurt yourself three different ways to super-situationally damage one ship and maybe two if you get lucky, whereas the super-situational Talents (Crack Shot, Marksmanship, Predator) tend to cost just one or two points. ****, Intimidation is three points for the exact same trigger and *zero* negative consequences. See also Electronic Baffle: two points for a single negative effect and an easily triggered and high-utility positive effect. A one-point Feedback Array might see use.

Rigged Cargo Chute and Cloaking Device almost feel okay, excepting that RCC costs you an action in the face of so many extraordinarily action-efficient ships in other factions. And *my* Cloaking Devices never don't break, ha ha. A reduction of at least one point would nearly make them attractive. As they stand now, they feel costly enough to feel like something you have to build your list around, and they aren't sufficiently powerful to make that work.

Actually, the longer I muse on it, apart from a couple costing issues, Illicits aren't terrible. Except that they don't come close to compensating for the synergies and Force available to other factions. And there certainly could be a bit more variety - a Pop-up Blaster would be most welcome, as would a two-pip Atanni Mindlink. And more Crew that affect the slot - the nerf to Cikatro was another big, egregious F-U, and it's rare that any ship in 2.0 survives long enough to justify fielding Jabba. I don't know what any other crew would look like, but still. Something, anything almost. But given that Scum is apparently meant to be a faction of soloists, they just plain need a **** of a lot more help facing up against the other, more team-driven factions.

I agree with all of you that the illicit slot and all upgrades are currently over-costed. Bringing all illicit upgrades down 1 point still wont make them all see more play, but it might help. A wider variety of upgrades would be a very welcome addition. I've enjoyed the multiple threads out there that bring up ideas for more illicit upgrades, maybe we should make those one of the top threads to grab the developer's eyes. Another idea I've been having is that Scum is a bunch of individuals flying the uniquely modified ships. I like how the Firespray has 3 titles, and each makes the ship fly differently. There should be a lot more titles for scum ships to show how unique they all are. New titles could upgrade some of the old 1e abilities that don't function as well in 2e.

21 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Actually, the longer I muse on it, apart from a couple costing issues, Illicits aren't terrible.

I think this.

They are simply, for the most part, too expensive to be worth the negatives. Particularly when compared to similar things in other factions.

There is a lot of cool, niche uses for almost everything that has been mentioned. But the costing on Scum squads tends to weaken the list built around the trick too much to make it viable. So normally, out goes the trick and in comes some plain efficiency. And not enough bid/tricks.

So basically everything just needs to come down a bit.

That will be a real awkward thing to pull off without unleashing some OTT NPE Scum nonsense. It's a tough faction to balance without breaking something, so I understand FFGs caution.

At the same time, I still do play plenty of Scum, both with and against. There's no shortage of joy and variety there, and they can be strong at every level, it only gets extremely narrow at the very top end.

So it's not too bad. I've seen worse....

15 minutes ago, dunhop said:

There should be a lot more titles for scum ships to show how unique they all are. New titles could upgrade some of the old 1e abilities that don't function as well in 2e.

Personally not a fan of titles (with some exceptions I prefer to avoid limited upgrade, even with my ideas for new ones) though I can see what you're saying. Maybe they can throw in an increased variety of configs for more ships while they're at it.

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

* Bonus Jabba build idea: Bossk (Jabba, BT-1, Contraband Cybernetics) 75 points. Basically, once you start to Contraband, you can keep using Jabba to refresh it each turn, and have 5 turns when you can ignore stress. You'll be ****ed afterwards, but if Bossk lives through those 5 turns, well... you've probably won the game otherwise. Could also be a Trandoshan skipping BT-1 for 63 points of... well... party bus doesn't seem the right term, since Jabba on there alone, but still.

Add Han Gunner and you've got a stew going.

More seriously, I think a big reason the YV isn't played is that its role overlaps with the drastically more efficient cartel executioner. A cartel with r5-p8 is efficient, tanky, well modded and more maneuverable than the old bus.

One YV that I did have fun with was latts razzi, since she brings a tractor beam ability, making her a dangerous brawler. I flew @Dalli's list, which featured IG-88D on koshka, cybernetics 4-lom, the nashtah pup, and latts razzi with unkar plutt and 000. Unkar plutt was 100% the MVP on the YV-666, especially with the knowledge that I had a pup ready to deploy when it finally died.