47 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Which is only outlined as such in the FAQ involving Cova and nowhere else. That ruling contradicts R4 astro...

32 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

<sigh> Yes, until FFG explicitly ruled in the FAQ that the card ability doesn't take precedence. R4 Astromech says it changes the difficulty of moves. FFG ruled that it sometimes does, and sometimes doesn't. Specifically, it doesn't when referencing the maneuver selected on the ship's dial (the literal definition, from the rules reference, of "revealed maneuver"). Given that activation executes the maneuver selected on the ship's dial, and then checks the difficulty of the executed maneuver (which, you will recall, was the maneuver selected on the ship's dial), at what point is R4 Astromech allowed to actually "take precedence" and do what it says it does? And why?

Which of these are faulty

1. All RR instructions without "cannot" effectively have an inherit "unless a card says otherwise" at the end
2. R4 issues a statement for you reduce difficulty of certain maneuvers, but does not reduce the difficulty of the revealed maneuver (which is now explicitly defined to be "as printed")
3. Cova's ability works because R4 does not alter the revealed maneuver
4. Substituting revealed maneuver in as you want, the rules for activation effectively says "Execute revealed maneuver on a dial unless a card says otherwise" and R4 says otherwise, allowing you to do something different from what is said

8 hours ago, JJ48 said:

That's good thinking, and was how I interpreted it prior to this Rules Reference. However, this most recent FAQ explicitly clarifies that "revealed maneuver" is not affected by R4 or cards worded like it.

True. When cards reference ypur revealed manouevre, they are looking at the printed dial and it is not affected by R4 etc. That is clear.

However, when you execute your revealed manoeuvre, you may use R4 etc to treat it differently. There is nothing in the RR that says you may not do that.

Now, however you treat the revealed manoeuvre, it doesn't change the actual colour of the revealed manoeuvre, as per the update.

The revealed manoeuvre is red, you treated as blue, but it is red if you want to reference the revealed dial.

What this actually says to me, thinking more about it, is that Leia and R4 might not stack.

Reveal a red 1 hard, R4 says reduce that. Ok, now I have executed it as if it was white.

Leia says reduce it. Refer to dial. It's still red. Ok, now it's double white.....

32 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

However, when you execute your revealed manoeuvre, you may use R4 etc to treat it differently. There is nothing in the RR that says you may not do that.

R4 Astromech doesn't have a "may" ability...

"Use of "May," "Can," and "Must"

The word "may" is used to mean "has the option to." For example, an ability that says "At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may perform a action," means that the ship has the option to perform the action, but can also decline.

The word "can" is used to mean "has the capacity to." For example, an ability that says "While you boost or barrel roll, you can move through and overlap obstacles" means when a ship with this ability boosts or barrel rolls, it ignores the rules that prevents them from overlapping or moving through obstacles. The ship always applies this effect as the effect is not optional but instead an expanded capability.

The word "must" is used to mean "is required to." Although all effects that are not "may" effects are mandatory, the inclusion of "must" is used to reiterate a mandatory effect that could provide a drawback to the ship with the effect."

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

R4 Astromech doesn't have a "may" ability...

Yeah sure, its def not optional, but the point is that R4 works because he modifies the "execute your revealed maneuver" instruction to mean "execute your revealed maneuver with applied ability modifications: reduced difficulty"

Some people just want to see the world burn...

1 minute ago, PsychoCC said:

Some people just want to see the world burn...

And a lot of them work on X-wing at FFG, apparently.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

R4 Astromech doesn't have a "may" ability...

Well yes, of course, but that's kind of tangential

4 hours ago, prauxim said:

Which of these are faulty

1. All RR instructions without "cannot" effectively have an inherit "unless a card says otherwise" at the end
2. R4 issues a statement for you reduce difficulty of certain maneuvers, but does not reduce the difficulty of the revealed maneuver (which is now explicitly defined to be "as printed")
3. Cova's ability works because R4 does not alter the revealed maneuver
4. Substituting revealed maneuver in as you want, the rules for activation effectively says "Execute revealed maneuver on a dial unless a card says otherwise" and R4 says otherwise, allowing you to do something different from what is said

You're trying to have it both ways. If every instruction has an implicit "unless a card says otherwise" at the end, then we can also say, "A ship's revealed maneuver is the printed maneuver selected on that ship's dial, unless a card says otherwise." R4 does say otherwise, but FFG has already explicitly said he doesn't work on the revealed maneuver . If he can't modify the revealed maneuver for Cova, there's no reason why he should be able to modify the revealed maneuver for Activation.

Again, I'm not saying the rules don't work in general; I'm saying that if FFG wants this particular FAQ entry to work, they need to update the rules to match .

3 hours ago, prauxim said:

Yeah sure, its def not optional, but the point is that R4 works because he modifies the "execute your revealed maneuver" instruction to mean "execute your revealed maneuver with applied ability modifications: reduced difficulty"

No, he modifies the maneuver itself, and FFG has decided that revealed maneuvers ignore modifications. Therefore, if you "execute your revealed maneuver ", then per FFG's current rules, modifications are ignored.

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

"R4 does say otherwise"

Actually it does not. It says: "Decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers" It does not say : "Decrease the printed difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers." R4 is formulated in a rather vague way, making your argument quite a stretch.

2 minutes ago, N'Kata said:

Actually it does not. It says: "Decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers" It does not say : "Decrease the printed difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers." R4 is formulated in a rather vague way, making your argument quite a stretch.

Of course it doesn't say "Decrease your printed difficulty..." What would that even mean? Every time you include it you have to send your dial back to FFG to be reprinted?

R4 doesn't change the printed maneuver; he changes the maneuver to be something other than the printed maneuver.

So just to ask the really dumb question, would all of this be resolved with something along the lines of

"Unless otherwise noted, if a talent/upgrade/pilot ability/magical McGuffin affects the difficultly of the revealed maneuver it only does so during the Activation Phase."

Does this clarify any issues with R4, Nien, and the L3-37s? What else does this break?

31 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

So just to ask the really dumb question, would all of this be resolved with something along the lines of

"Unless otherwise noted, if a talent/upgrade/pilot ability/magical McGuffin affects the difficultly of the revealed maneuver it only does so during the Activation Phase."

Does this clarify any issues with R4, Nien, and the L3-37s? What else does this break?

Not with Activation Phase, since that includes revealing the dial, but if the rules said that it only affected it while executing the maneuver, that might work.

18 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

So just to ask the really dumb question, would all of this be resolved with something along the lines of

"Unless otherwise noted, if a talent/upgrade/pilot ability/magical McGuffin affects the difficultly of the revealed maneuver it only does so during the Activation Phase."

Does this clarify any issues with R4, Nien, and the L3-37s? What else does this break?

Maybe? It does get at the essential issue here which is that Nien and R4 Astromech and L3-37 do not really have a specific timing now with the new Rules Reference. They were "always on." They were understood to change the maneuver choice that was revealed. With these new rulings regarding the "revealed maneuver" always being what is printed on the dial we do not know when these abilities turn on.

My opinion is this is a result of not having properly determined when effects that change the difficulty of a maneuver work at the outset. It is a result of having not properly delineated what is and is not allowed by effects that change the difficulty of a maneuver. These things caused all sorts of confusion and arguments and cognitive dissonance in 1st Edition and they didn't nut up and fix it for second. Then they compounded the problem with "revealed maneuver" mechanics. Now they've blown the entire thing up and left us to sort it out.

Back when they were previewing 2nd Edition. Some game blogger did a video with a designer going over the new version. The bloggers asked the sort of rules question that comes up all the time. The designer replied with a derisive, "What are you? The X-wing forum." I remember asking myself if I had been the blogger would I have called the contemptuous designer out. I remember it as the blogger being taken aback a bit and at a bit of a loss as though he too were thinking that shouldn't be let go. Every since this new Rule Reference was released I haven't been able to get that comment out of my head.

He was referring to the kind of people who deliberately and abusively get rules wrong. We all know those guys, even if they are more rare in X-Wing.

13 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

He was referring to the kind of people who deliberately and abusively get rules wrong. We all know those guys, even if they are more rare in X-Wing.

It was out of line for a person in his position and in such circumstance. Especially since it wasn't an unreasonable question. The man was out of line. Had I been his boss I'd have torn him a new one for that. Even "those guys" are your customers. You do not ever express contempt in public forums for your customers.

Actually, I felt they all took it as the joke it was intended to be. Reading this thread, it feels like quite a poignant one to make.

The oh so much loved SOTL has summed up, and cleared up, the confusion quite nicely in his blog.

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2019/09/deal-altering-rules-reference-v105-and.html?_sm_au_=i5VmR15vHHt6SWfP&m=1

15 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It was out of line for a person in his position and in such circumstance. Especially since it wasn't an unreasonable question. The man was out of line. Had I been his boss I'd have torn him a new one for that. Even "those guys" are your customers. You do not ever express contempt in public forums for your customers.

Customers today have been ruined by this attitude.

karen

I now remember why I stopped coming to this forum...oh well. Time to disappear for 3 more months while people argue the merit of a revealed and executed manuver.

First, forget everything you knew about maneuvers. Our understanding of rules that have been in place since 1.0 has to change. It requires stretching your brain to understand the new rules but everything still works, albeit a little differently.

R4, Nien, L3-37 say nothing about "revealed maneuvers". They reduce the difficulty of "maneuvers". Can we agree that before "revealed maneuver" became a thing everybody just thought of everything related to maneuvering a ship as a maneuver - what was on the dial, what the ship attempted, etc? This mode of thought required less thinking than is now required. Now that FFG has defined "revealed maneuver", and clarified that Cova/R4 works in all regards concerning both cards, we have to look at "maneuvers" and "revealed maneuvers" as two separate things. And that means that we have it both ways when we have to think about maneuvers in general. FFG said so.

With that in mind we have to forget what we previously thought and look at the situation differently: As FFG has said, "revealed maneuver" is what is printed on the dial, color/difficulty and all. As such, we need to think of "maneuver" as being what the ship does. In fact,"a maneuver is a type of move a ship can execute", color/difficulty and all. It doesn't say a maneuver is what is on a dial, that is what a revealed maneuver is. So when Cova has R4 and her dial has a revealed maneuver of red 1 hard, she isn't doing a red 1 hard "treating it as white" a la Ello Asty, she is doing a white maneuver even though her revealed maneuver is red because R4 has reduced the difficulty of the maneuver she is executing.

Hera and Nien still work. Hera says when you reveal a blue or red maneuver you can change to another maneuver of the same difficulty . Nien reduces difficulty. With Nien, Hera can still dial one of her 4 blues on her dial and change to 1- or 3- banks because their difficulty has changed. Yes, they are still white on the dial but the difficulty of those maneuvers that Hera can execute is blue. Notice, Hera doesn't say you can change to a maneuver of the same color . As such, you can't dial a 1- or 3-bank and change to another blue/easy maneuver because the trigger for Hera is revealing a blue or red.

As a side note zero cards in the game say the word "color". I found that interesting.

On 9/18/2019 at 10:41 AM, Innese said:

With the new rulings on Revealed Maneuvers...

If a Stressed Resistance Transport with R4 reveals a Hard-1, does it perform the maneuver, or a 2-straight as it revealed a Red while stressed?

Regarding stress and "revealed maneuvers": The Stress section in the RR isn't concerned with "revealed maneuvers" when the determination needs to be made whether or not the pilot is forced to do a white 2-straight. It again talks only about maneuvers (a move a ship can execute) and when a red maneuver is attempted. So, a stressed Cova (or any other ship with R4 or some other ability that reduces maneuver difficulty) will not have to do a white 2-straight if the revealed maneuver is red but the difficulty of the maneuver is less than red. Rebel Leia is another example of this. Yes, the revealed maneuver may be red but the maneuver the ship is attempting is no longer red.

Regarding Seasoned Navigator and "revealed maneuvers": Seasoned Navigator says nothing about "revealed maneuvers" it talks about when you reveal your dial you can select a non-red maneuver (a move a ship can execute), not a non-red revealed maneuver (what is on the dial). It can be red on the dial but can still be a maneuver you can select if you are using R4, Nien, or L3-37 and the maneuver that the ship would execute is non-red.

Moral of the story - difficulty of the revealed maneuver/maneuver on the dial DOES NOT EQUAL the difficulty of the maneuver the ship is trying to execute. They are two different things that each have a definition.

4 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

Moral of the story - difficulty of the revealed maneuver/maneuver on the dial DOES NOT EQUAL the difficulty of the maneuver the ship is trying to execute. They are two different things that each have a definition.

They are defined as being the same thing.

55 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They are defined as being the same thing.

Can you show me please. I have gone through the rules reference and rule book 2 times searching for "maneuver" and "revealed maneuver" and I'm not seeing anywhere that they are defined as the same thing. I see a lot of paragraphs that talk about both and so connections can easily be made that they are the same thing. They were the same thing because previously the term "revealed maneuver" wasn't actually defined and didn't exist as a component affecting the game outside of everyone understanding that one reveals their maneuver in order to perform it. Maneuver is used a lot with regards to setting and revealing dials but I'm not seeing anything saying "maneuver", a "move a ship can execute" is the same as "revealed maneuver".

Even under the maneuver section it states "A card effect can cause a ship to execute a maneuver that does not appear on its dial" which would suggest that "revealed maneuver" and "maneuver" (in the sense of moving a ship) are different.

And this is my point. It is such an abstract idea. We have to separate ourselves from continuing to think that the maneuver on the dial is the same as what the ship performs. A red hard 1 on Cova's dial will never actually physically be a white hard 1 - the R4 upgrade doesn't physically, IRL, paint white over red. But it is white when it comes to moving with R4. And it isn't when it comes to Cova's ability.

The only other way I can think to explain my understanding of the new rule so it doesn't completely break some other components of the game is this: we have three different color template sets - blue, white, and red. We select the maneuver on our dial and use the corresponding template. Cards will affect the template we use but they don't affect the dial.

That's all I've got. Looking at it this way makes more sense to me than the fact that defining the term "revealed maneuver" breaks other aspects of the game.

1 minute ago, Skitch_ said:

Can you show me please. I have gone through the rules reference and rule book 2 times searching for "maneuver" and "revealed maneuver" and I'm not seeing anywhere that they are defined as the same thing. I see a lot of paragraphs that talk about both and so connections can easily be made that they are the same thing. They were the same thing because previously the term "revealed maneuver" didn't exist as a component of affecting the game outside of moving a ship. Maneuver is used a lot with regards to setting and revealing dials but I'm not seeing anything saying the maneuver a ship performs - a "move a ship can execute" - is the same as the revealed maneuver.

Even under the maneuver section it states "A card effect can cause a ship to execute a maneuver that does not appear on its dial" which would suggest that "revealed maneuver" and "maneuver" (in the sense of moving a ship) are different.

And this is my point. It is such an abstract idea. We have to separate ourselves from continuing to think that the maneuver on the dial is the same as what the ship performs. A red hard 1 on Cova's dial will never actually physically be a white hard 1 - the R4 upgrade doesn't physically, IRL, paint white over red. But it is white when it comes to moving with R4. And it isn't when it comes to Cova's ability.

The only other way I can think to explain my understanding of the new rule so it doesn't completely break some components of the game is this: we have three different color template sets - blue, white, and red. We select the maneuver on our dial and use the corresponding template. Cards will affect the template we use but they don't affect the dial.

That's all I've got. Looking at it this way makes more sense to me than the fact that defining the term "revealed maneuver" breaks other aspects of the game.

Formatting added to indicate direct connections:

From Activation Phase:

1. <Reveal Dial>: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it faceup
and then placing it next to its ship card.

2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the <revealed dial>.

From Maneuvers:

• Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that
ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on
its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next
Planning Phase.

31 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Formatting added to indicate direct connections:

From Activation Phase:

1. <Reveal Dial>: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it faceup
and then placing it next to its ship card.

2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the <revealed dial>.

From Maneuvers:

• Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that
ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on
its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next
Planning Phase.

I think part of the issue is that an FAQ is supposed to be clarification. So when the FAQ says something, it's supposed to be clarification of how the rules work, not a brand new rule (otherwise the main Rule should be updated as well). So, the official definition of "revealed maneuver" is "the maneuver selected on <the ship's> dial". The FAQ clarifies this to say it's talking about the printed maneuver, and thus establishes that "the maneuver selected on <the ship's> dial" is a phrase that refers to the printed maneuver. So, when that same phrase shows up under which Activation Phase, for which maneuver a ship executes...

44 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think part of the issue is that an FAQ is supposed to be clarification. So when the FAQ says something, it's supposed to be clarification of how the rules work, not a brand new rule (otherwise the main Rule should be updated as well). So, the official definition of "revealed maneuver" is "the maneuver selected on <the ship's> dial". The FAQ clarifies this to say it's talking about the printed maneuver, and thus establishes that "the maneuver selected on <the ship's> dial" is a phrase that refers to the printed maneuver. So, when that same phrase shows up under which Activation Phase, for which maneuver a ship executes...

… Abilities that affect maneuvers and don't have a timing (IE R4 astro, Nien crew, and L3-37, all of which are mandatory as defined by what it means to not be a "may" ability) end up not having a window to apply their effect since they are no longer applied continually. Everything with a timing (IE Resistance Leia from the FAQ question) is unchanged. The Judges and Players will play them anyway, and apply them when they think they work, but the rules need to be adjusted to make it legal under them to do so.

4 hours ago, Skitch_ said:

The only other way I can think to explain my understanding of the new rule so it doesn't completely break some other components of the game is this: we have three different color template sets - blue, white, and red. We select the maneuver on our dial and use the corresponding template . Cards will affect the template we use but they don't affect the dial.

This does make sense.

Thank you.