3 minutes ago, prauxim said:Yeah they did that in 1.04
A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase
I meant a clearer definition. We already had that, but the whole discussion was about whether the "revealed maneuver" was modified.
Now they've explicitly equated it to the printed value, which solves that problem but raises others.
9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:I meant a clearer definition. We already had that, but the whole discussion was about whether the "revealed maneuver" was modified.
Now they've explicitly equated it to the printed value, which solves that problem but raises others.
This was the added text that clarified that. It uses present tense "is selected" so regardless of it was modified, it refers to the currently selected maneuver.
What is left unclear?
3 minutes ago, prauxim said:This was the added text that clarified that. It uses present tense "is selected" so regardless of it was modified, it refers to the currently selected maneuver.
What is left unclear?
The fact that the newest FAQ says that it's the printed, unmodified maneuver.
11 minutes ago, JJ48 said:The fact that the newest FAQ says that it's the printed, unmodified maneuver.
Now we need a definition of modified. There’s r4 and there’s Navigator. Are those both covered by “modified”?
Well, I think Hera/Nien partially works. For example, if you have Hera's 3 bank dialed in that's blue due to Nien, you couldn't change it to the other 3 bank or 1 banks since it's not blue on the base dial.
Edited by MegaSilverNein and Hera still work.
With nein crew, hera must still physically reveal a blue maneuver (not a white bank). Nein reduces difficulty of banks to make them blue, so hera can now change to a blue bank. If she revealed a white bank, nein reduces its difficulty to be blue, but she cannot change to any other blue maneuver, because she REVEALED a white maneuver.
6 minutes ago, wurms said:Nein and Hera still work.
With nein crew, hera must still physically reveal a blue maneuver (not a white bank). Nein reduces difficulty of banks to make them blue, so hera can now change to a blue bank. If she revealed a white bank, nein reduces its difficulty to be blue, but she cannot change to any other blue maneuver, because she REVEALED a white maneuver.
So basically just dial in a blue 1 straight all the time with Hera, then it can change to any blue, including Nien'd banks, right?
neat. Me happy again.
25 minutes ago, JJ48 said:The fact that the newest FAQ says that it's the printed, unmodified maneuver.
A revealed maneuver now refers to the selected maneuver as printed, but that doesn't mean you can't modify the selection
Revealed maneuver = The one currently (right now) selected on the dial, as printed
If an ability say "treat maneuver as..." that doesn't affect the revealed maneuver. If an ability says "change dial" then is does.
Seem clear as far as I can tell
1 minute ago, prauxim said:A revealed maneuver now refers to the selected maneuver as printed, but that doesn't mean you can't modify the selection
Revealed maneuver = The one currently (right now) selected on the dial, as printed
If an ability say "treat maneuver as..." that doesn't affect the revealed maneuver. If an ability says "change dial" then is does.
Seem clear as far as I can tell
Right, but the rules for activation say, "Execute the maneuver selected on the revealed dial" so does R4 Astromech ("decrease the difficulty...") have any effect?
If it does, then what's "revealed" includes modifications, and the FAQ is wrong. If not, then the upgrade is obviously useless.
Granted, someone could argue that "maneuver selected on the revealed dial" isn't exactly "revealed maneuver", but this would just mean that we have even more ill-defined terms.
4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Right, but the rules for activation say, "Execute the maneuver selected on the revealed dial" so does R4 Astromech ("decrease the difficulty...") have any effect?
If it does, then what's "revealed" includes modifications, and the FAQ is wrong. If not, then the upgrade is obviously useless.
Granted, someone could argue that "maneuver selected on the revealed dial" isn't exactly "revealed maneuver", but this would just mean that we have even more ill-defined terms.
I like it when people who are smarter than me about the game put my questions and would be arguments concisely into what my brain wants to say, but my passion for deliberate choice of technical vocabulary leaves wanting.
JJ48 when do I get to start the thread about R4 being useless? I can't wait to prematurely screw up that dialogue.
Edited by Cloaker13 minutes ago, prauxim said:If an ability say "treat maneuver as..." that doesn't affect the revealed maneuver. If an ability says "change dial" then is does.
So... Saese and R4 is now much less interesting?
2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:So... Saese and R4 is now much less interesting?
From what I can tell yes.
51 minutes ago, wurms said:Nein and Hera still work.
With nein crew, hera must still physically reveal a blue maneuver (not a white bank). Nein reduces difficulty of banks to make them blue, so hera can now change to a blue bank. If she revealed a white bank, nein reduces its difficulty to be blue, but she cannot change to any other blue maneuver, because she REVEALED a white maneuver.
this is how I interpret the rules change as well.
25 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Right, but the rules for activation say, "Execute the maneuver selected on the revealed dial" so does R4 Astromech ("decrease the difficulty...") have any effect?
If it does, then what's "revealed" includes modifications, and the FAQ is wrong. If not, then the upgrade is obviously useless.
Granted, someone could argue that "maneuver selected on the revealed dial" isn't exactly "revealed maneuver", but this would just mean that we have even more ill-defined terms.
"maneuver selected on the revealed dial" isn't exactly "revealed maneuver"
"Revealed maneuver" is a key phrase that has a specific, not necessarily intuitive definition, much like "while attacking". That's just something we have to live with.
But the real issue, is that now we have a precedent for "printed" overriding "treat". Can SF now not use hotshot on missile attacks since their ability only allows treating missile arc like a turret arc?
5 minutes ago, prauxim said:"maneuver selected on the revealed dial" isn't exactly "revealed maneuver"
"Revealed maneuver" is a key phrase that has a specific, not necessarily intuitive definition, much like "while attacking". That's just something we have to live with.
But the real issue, is that now we have a precedent for "printed" overriding "treat". Can SF now not use hotshot on missile attacks since their ability only allows treating missile arc like a turret arc?
Am I wrong in thinking that simply saying "printed maneuver" when they wanted the unmodified selection would have been much clearer? It seems to work in several card games.
34 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:So... Saese and R4 is now much less interesting?
34 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:From what I can tell yes.
Saesee doesn't reference "revealed maneuver" only a maneuver of the same difficulty, R4 still reduces difficulty. Just because "revelaed difficulty" now explicitly means printed difficulty it doesn't mean you always reference printed difficulty.
9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Am I wrong in thinking that simply saying "printed maneuver" when they wanted the unmodified selection would have been much clearer? It seems to work in several card games.
Technically they would need to say "selected printed maneuver" which is a bit of a mouthful. Also they likely decided what they wanted it to mean after printing 🤣
Edited by prauximWhile a ship is not executing a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle (after resolving its move, if applicable):
Is this referring to things like Temmin boosting into them to trigger composure or simple resolving tractor beams?
13 minutes ago, prauxim said:Saesee doesn't reference "revealed maneuver" only a maneuver of the same difficulty, R4 still reduces difficulty. Just because "revelaed difficulty" now explicitly means printed difficulty it doesn't mean you always reference printed difficulty.
To give 2 examples to check my understanding:
Still works: initially set dial to blue 2bank or straight, change to any other basic 2 speed maneuver. (No sloops obviously...)
Doesn't work anymore: initially set dial to pseudo-blue 2 hard. Can't change to anything else because nothing else is white, which is the revealed maneuver color.
yes?
Edited by GreenDragoonSo wait, I just thought of another weird Cova + R4 interaction. Let’s say that she starts the turn stressed and reveals a red maneuver. This causes her to execute a white 2 straight. But her “revealed maneuver” is still red for purposes of her effect, right? And in this situation, does R4 cause the maneuver she executes to become blue, this clearing her stress?
9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:To give 2 examples to check my understanding:
Still works: initially set dial to blue 2bank or straight, change to any other 2 speed maneuver.
Doesn't work anymore: initially set dial to pseudo-blue 2 hard. Can't change to anything else because nothing else is white, which is the revealed maneuver color.
yes?
No its all still works as per my current understanding. You use printed difficulty when the pre-defined key term "Revealed maneuver" is referenced, such as Cova Nell, where as Saesee just references difficulty, which has been changed by R4
Edited by prauxim9 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:So wait, I just thought of another weird Cova + R4 interaction. Let’s say that she starts the turn stressed and reveals a red maneuver. This causes her to execute a white 2 straight. But her “revealed maneuver” is still red for purposes of her effect, right? And in this situation, does R4 cause the maneuver she executes to become blue, this clearing her stress?
R4 makes it white so you do it and keep the stress. 2 straight white would only be if you actually tried to execute a red maneuver. But the "revealed maneuver" is red so her ability activates
Edited by prauximI'm bummed I can't BB barrel roll out of somebody's ion trap anymore.
That always caught people by surprise.
Oh well....
1 hour ago, prauxim said:R4 makes it white so you do it and keep the stress. 2 straight white would only be if you actually tried to execute a red maneuver. But the "revealed maneuver" is red so her ability activates
Ah, I didn’t make the question specific enough. What I mean is more like: what if, while stressed, she reveals a maneuver that R4 can’t influence, such as a red 0 stop. In that case she would get stuck executing the white 2 straight. But then does R4 turn that into a blue 2 straight?
22 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:Ah, I didn’t make the question specific enough. What I mean is more like: what if, while stressed, she reveals a maneuver that R4 can’t influence, such as a red 0 stop. In that case she would get stuck executing the white 2 straight. But then does R4 turn that into a blue 2 straight?
Good question. Now that we know R4 is distinct from simply having a different dial, it seems like he is this persistent difficulty reducing effect, so leaning yes? Not sure though
