7 hours ago, Flurpy said:

Herra + Nien still works you just have to select a naturally blue Herra Manouver. The same way you can select a naturally red Manouver and then execute any Manouver affected by Damaged Engine.

Which is how I played Herra so far anyway. You either dial in 1 straight or a 4K turn and the make the actual choice of where you go at I5.

I think you’re right. I wish ffg would confirm. As bad as the VCX is I’d still fly one if I knew I wouldn’t get constant random rulings because nobody is sure.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Assuming Nien still works with this ruling.

I feel like anyone who says Nien or R4 don't work at all after this ruling is rules layering to an absolute extreme, though.

Obviously FFG didn't deliberately just completely invalidate two entire upgrade cards for the sake of one interaction.

Maybe I get away with it because I don't play OP tournaments, but if anyone tried to tell me my bank with Lando and Nien didn't clear a stress, I'd just leave the game.

I understand the need for precision with game rules, but anyone who tries to genuinely argue that point to their advantage during a game that's supposed to be a way of having fun just isn't worth dealing with.

Obviously Nien still makes Lando's banks blue. We all know it.

2 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I feel like anyone who says Nien or R4 don't work at all after this ruling is rules layering to an absolute extreme, though.

Obviously FFG didn't deliberately just completely invalidate two entire upgrade cards for the sake of one interaction.

Maybe I get away with it because I don't play OP tournaments, but if anyone tried to tell me my bank with Lando and Nien didn't clear a stress, I'd just leave the game.

I understand the need for precision with game rules, but anyone who tries to genuinely argue that point to their advantage during a game that's supposed to be a way of having fun just isn't worth dealing with.

Obviously Nien still makes Lando's banks blue. We all know it.

"Obvious" maybe, but is it correct, given the rules?

Your statement about people abusing inconsistencies during tournaments being no fun to play against is accurate, but that's precisely why we need to bring up the inconsistencies when we find them. FFG needs to fix the brokenness now, before people abuse it in organized play. It's all well and good to say, "I'd walk out," or, "Those guys don't matter," but it doesn't change the fact that they exist, and someone's game was ruined as a result.

I think the terminology has been clear enough.

Revealed maneuver are the printed values of the dial.

Your executed or excutable maneuver and a maneuver ref in general, take into account all the mods you are using. R4, Nien, Leia ect..

Hera + Nien. Hera’s revealed value has to match Nien’s maneuver value for it to work.

Lando’s ability triggers on his executed maneuver so it still works with Nien.

If Cova does a hard one with R4 and PA. His excuted maneuver is hard 1 white so it doesn’t trigger PA. Then his ability checks his revealed maneuver, which is a hard 1 red. Triggers ability.

Seems clear and it was what they intended in the last rules update but folks wanted to argue the concept of a constant state of effects like R4 that changed the printed dial which didn’t exist.

25 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

Seems clear and it was what they intended in the last rules update but folks wanted to argue the concept of a constant state of effects like R4 that changed the printed dial which didn’t exist.

People wanted to claim that R4 actually did what the card says, you mean.

And none of this addresses the issue of whether it's even possible for the executed maneuver and the revealed maneuver to be different, given the rules for Activation.

What @JJ48 is talking about (page 2, Activation Phase):

"2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the
revealed dial."

RAW now R4 and Nien Numb crew do nothing since they do not have a timing and thus are never applied, thanks to the Cova Nell clarification in the FAQ section of the Rules reference (page 28) means the maneuver executed is the one printed on the dial (since it is the maneuver on the "revealed dial").

Cova Ruling

"Q: When an effect checks the difficulty of your revealed maneuver (such as Cova Nell’s pilot ability), do any effects that alter the difficulty of your maneuvers (such as R4 Astromech [Astromech] or Leia Organa [Resistance, double crew] apply?

A: No. The difficulty of a revealed maneuver matches its printed color. The speed and bearing of a revealed maneuver also match their printed value and type, respectively."

Nien crew:

R4 astro:

No timing = never enters the Ability Queue = has no effect on the game... 😠

It also breaks L3-37 crew and Pilot:

37 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

What @JJ48 is talking about (page 2, Activation Phase):

"2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the
revealed dial."

RAW now R4 and Nien Numb crew do nothing since they do not have a timing and thus are never applied, thanks to the Cova Nell clarification in the FAQ section of the Rules reference (page 28) means the maneuver executed is the one printed on the dial (since it is the maneuver on the "revealed dial").

Cova Ruling

"Q: When an effect checks the difficulty of your revealed maneuver (such as Cova Nell’s pilot ability), do any effects that alter the difficulty of your maneuvers (such as R4 Astromech [Astromech] or Leia Organa [Resistance, double crew] apply?

A: No. The difficulty of a revealed maneuver matches its printed color. The speed and bearing of a revealed maneuver also match their printed value and type, respectively."

Nien crew:

R4 astro:

No timing = never enters the Ability Queue = has no effect on the game... 😠

To be clear for people who think I'm simply being pedantic, I'm not saying that the intent of the cards isn't obvious. I think it's perfectly obvious that they cards should work, and that's how I would certainly play them. However, in tournaments, especially, you can't just go off of what's obvious. For example, with whether R4 works on a revealed maneuver , I thought it was obvious that he did based on the fact that there's nothing limiting his ability to a specific time. Others thought it was obvious that his ability only applied to the executed maneuver . When two players (or even two judges) find different and incompatible interpretations to be "obvious", how do we determine which "obvious" ruling to go with?

That is why it troubles me when there are inconsistencies in the rules. In a casual environment, sure, just come to an agreement with your opponent and move on. But in organized play, there needs to be some sort of standard to fall back on that the players can trust and agree to.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

And none of this addresses the issue of whether it's even possible for the executed maneuver and the revealed maneuver to be different, given the rules for Activation.

I've been following these discussions and think that they could have all been avoided by using "difficulty of your executed " for R4 Astromech, Nien, Leia (both crew,) and probably all of the L3-37 versions. This would make "revealed maneuver" agnostic to any abilities.

Seasoned Navigator, Connix, and R4-P Astromech, and Countess Ryad could be worded as replacement effects. Countess Ryad more on the lines of "When you reveal a (Straight) maneuver you may instead increase the difficulty to treat it as a (K-Turn) maneuver." Connix more on the lines of "After you reveal your dial you may set your dial to a basic maneuver of the next higher speed. Instead of the printed difficulty increase that difficulty."

Alternately or in addition they could have made more use of "check difficulty step" in these effects. Nien would be "During the check difficulty step reduce the difficulty of your bank maneuvers."

(This would give them a timing as mentioned in posts made while I was typing.)

It isn't like they shouldn't have seen all this coming after similar effects and the consequent confusion and rules lawyering in 1st Edition. But they tried to shortcut it or lazy their way out of it and made just as much work. "If you don't have time to do it right, you'll need time to do it over."

Made a mess of my edit.

13 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It isn't like they shouldn't have seen all this coming after similar effects and the consequent confusion and rules lawyering in 1st Edition. But they tried to shortcut it or lazy their way out of it and made just as much work. "If you don't have time to do it right, you'll need time to do it over."

The Cova ruling reads like they saw what was done in Europe and went "Hey, that doesn't look overpowered. Let's make it work under the actual rules.", and then didn't bother proof reading or looking at what it would affect. As written R4 + Cova still doesn't work the way people think/thought it does (the 1 hards aren't changed to white now) since R4 astromech is now never applied (nothing in the Maneuver section of the rules that accounts for abilities without timings affecting the difficulty of the maneuvers, Check Difficulty step included).

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

The Cova ruling reads like they saw what was done in Europe and went "Hey, that doesn't look overpowered. Let's make it work under the actual rules.", and then didn't bother proof reading or looking at what it would affect. As written R4 + Cova still doesn't work the way people think/thought it does (the 1 hards aren't changed to white now) since R4 astromech is now never applied (nothing in the Maneuver section of the rules that accounts for abilities with out timings affecting the difficulty of the maneuvers, Check Difficulty step included).

I will personally buy you a beer of choice and deliver it in person if you find me one judge that will rule that R4 now doesn't work. One.

Just now, Flurpy said:

I will personally buy you a beer of choice and deliver it in person if you find me one judge that will rule that R4 now doesn't work. One.

RAW it doesn't because the is now no window for R4 astro, Nien Nunb or L3-37 to be applied. If a judge rules otherwise then the people playing the game they're mediating are no longer playing X-Wing Second Edition...

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

RAW it doesn't because the is now no window for R4 astro, Nien Nunb or L3-37 to be applied. If a judge rules otherwise then the people playing the game they're mediating are no longer playing X-Wing Second Edition...

You do understand that by your own logic, everywhere but Europe wasn't playing X-Wing for the last couple of months since Europe consistently judged Cova+ R4 to work and America and the rest didn't.

And further more. I honestly wonder if the people rules lawyering this hard would due that in person. Would you really insist now that R4 does nothing to a real human being and not be afraid somebody would key your car after the event.

5 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

And further more. I honestly wonder if the people rules lawyering this hard would due that in person. Would you really insist now that R4 does nothing to a real human being and not be afraid somebody would key your car after the event.

🤨 Tells me all I need to know about you, bye...

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Tells me all I need to know about you, bye...

Oh jesus its a figure of speech.

My point is that ruining a person fun at a tournament, flying a card that is anything but NPE on everything but perhaps Cova, just so you could prove to FFG how cool and RAW you are is much worse than people flying that card.

"2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial."

Revealed dial, not revealed maneuver, and "revealed maneuver" is the only thing defined as "revealed printed maneuver" right? I don't mean to nitpick, I'm trying to understand this as well.

This game definitely needs some much more distinct wording for things. I think I'd probably end up making a game like this, but the more I see these debates the more I see the problem.

So long story short, if you value your sanity don't bring nothing mentioned in last 3 pages to tournament

24 minutes ago, Jokubas said:

"2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial."

Revealed dial, not revealed maneuver, and "revealed maneuver" is the only thing defined as "revealed printed maneuver" right? I don't mean to nitpick, I'm trying to understand this as well.

This game definitely needs some much more distinct wording for things. I think I'd probably end up making a game like this, but the more I see these debates the more I see the problem.

Preceding entry in Activation Phase which sets up what a revealed dial is:

1. Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is revealed by flipping it faceup
and then placing it next to its ship card.

From Maneuvers (bolding and underlining added):

• Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that
ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on
its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next
Planning Phase.

So that scrolling is unneeded, the Cova Ruling:

Q: When an effect checks the difficulty of your revealed maneuver (such as Cova Nell’s pilot ability), do any effects that alter the difficulty of your maneuvers (such as R4 Astromech [Astromech] or Leia Organa [Resistance, double crew] apply?

A: No. The difficulty of a revealed maneuver matches its printed color. The speed and bearing of a revealed maneuver also match their printed value and type, respectively.

R4 Astro, Nien Nunb and L3-37 do not have timings so were previously perceived as continuous effects (once unshielded with L3-37. "If you are" isn't a Timing condition so she never enters the queue). With the Cova ruling this breaks since the "revealed maneuver" is the maneuver selected on the dial which step 2 of "Activation Phase" requires you execute and it is now further clarified as matching the printed color, speed and bearing. No timing specified on the abilities I've referenced so they never enter the Ability Queue. They are no longer continual effects since they do not affect the maneuvers on the dial from list building. Result: they have 0 effect other than being a blank points sink.

57 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

You do understand that by your own logic, everywhere but Europe wasn't playing X-Wing for the last couple of months since Europe consistently judged Cova+ R4 to work and America and the rest didn't.

And further more. I honestly wonder if the people rules lawyering this hard would due that in person. Would you really insist now that R4 does nothing to a real human being and not be afraid somebody would key your car after the event.

You do understand that no one in this thread is seriously suggesting playing as if R4 does nothing, right? There is ambiguity and/or conflict in the rules, and therefore, the rules need to be fixed. It's saying FFG needs to fix their rules, not that players need to spoil the game.

Though, it's also a recognition that if the rules aren't fixed, there will be players who do spoil the game, hence why the rules need to be fixed.

You guys are making it unnecessarily complicated, and violating the golden rule "never add rules"

Revealed Maneuver is now a key phrase has a specific definition. You don't back hack that definition anywhere you see the word revealed

The instructions for neither activating nor executing a maneuver specify "revealed maneuver", so of course R4/Nien work

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They are no longer continual effects since they do not affect the maneuvers on the dial from list building. Result: they have 0 effect other than being a blank points sink.

No, they continuously affect maneuver, they never affect Revealed Maneuver

You execute the maneuver on the revealed dial. To me that maneuver is the revealed maneuver on the revealed dial + mods. R4, Nien.. ect

2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

You guys are making it unnecessarily complicated, and violating the golden rule "never add rules"

1. We're not adding rules; we're showing the logical consequences of the rules already there.

2. That's not even a Golden Rule (so would you be breaking it by claiming it's one?) From page 2:
GOLDEN RULES
If a rule in this guide contradicts the Rulebook, the rule in this guide takes precedence.
If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.
If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.
During an attack or while otherwise resolving an effect involving dice, each die cannot be rerolled more than once.

On the plus side, this means Damaged Engine may as well be blank, too.

3 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

You execute the maneuver on the revealed dial. To me that maneuver is the revealed maneuver on the revealed dial + mods. R4, Nien.. ect

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the rules as written don't agree with us.

I think this might add some context to the Cova ruling:

In page 13 of the RR, under Maneuver:

"Some abilities reference a ship’s revealed maneuver outside of that
ship’s activation . A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on
its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next
Planning Phase