Obviously only up until it triggers, because if you measure and it's in you obviously have to fire.

Still, it seems ripe for abuse?

I mean, technically, I guess.

Practically speaking? I would only measure if it appears close. Like, if it’s first turn, clearly they aren’t in range 2 yet (outside of something like one of odd deployment ships) so don’t be a jerk. I would check for bullseye first, then see if they are in range.

Ultimately though, I don’t see it as being super abusive. It may help someone judge if a boost will get them to an r1 shot, but really, it’s a bit of a catch 22. If someone is playing at a high enough level where the information they would get from measuring would give them an advantage, then they are playing at a level where they don’t need that information.

Ultimately, I would always err on the side of “only measure if you actually think you are close.” Anything else is at best annoying in a casual setting, and at worst gaming the system or a violation of one of the more undefined tournament regulations.

Yes, snapshot and foresight let's you check the range each time any enemy ship executes a maneuver. No, it's not cheating, both players get the same information anyway. Yes, you can use that to make better informed decisions when moving. I mean, the talent is 7 points, it better be usefull right?

Did no one here play warmachine in it's second edition and remember the infamous rule of checking command range? It was basically the same thing for an another system, and was used all the time in more competitive settings to set up super precise turn and was definitely part of being a good player. It was so important that when the game transitioned to V3, they made it into an ''official'' rule and let you check range at all time to each object when you activate.

36 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Did no one here play warmachine in it's second edition and remember the infamous rule of checking command range? It was basically the same thing for an another system, and was used all the time in more competitive settings to set up super precise turn and was definitely part of being a good player. It was so important that when the game transitioned to V3, they made it into an ''official'' rule and let you check range at all time to each object when you activate.

That's fascinating. I've never so much as touched a war machine model, but I did play X-wing 1.0.

In that game, high level players constantly checked for target locks in order to get range information.

I don't want to get into whether or not it was considered to be in good form, there are arguments back in the forums if anyone wants to investigate.

But I do seem to recall most people thinking that such uses of the locking mechanic are part of why we now have failed actions and the requirement to lock a rock.

57 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Yes, snapshot and foresight let's you check the range each time any enemy ship executes a maneuver. No, it's not cheating, both players get the same information anyway. Yes, you can use that to make better informed decisions when moving. I mean, the talent is 7 points, it better be usefull right?

Are you advocating measuring for range or bullseye when you know range and bullseye aren't achieved?

If so, that's abuse of the rules, which is a violation, and don't be surprised if TOs call you on it. This sort of thing was absurdly prevalent in 1E ... but TOs are waking up to it in 2E.

Yeah, X-Wing is moving away from allowing players to game this sort of information gathering; compared to Warmachine which said "F it, pre-measure at any time from now on", X-Wing added in failing declared actions and targeting rocks so that you can't really game taking a Lock or re-position anymore.

I would expect a TO to issue a warning to knock it off, and then penalize for repeated abuse of it.

22 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Are you advocating measuring for range or bullseye when you know range and bullseye aren't achieved?

If so, that's abuse of the rules, which is a violation, and don't be surprised if TOs call you on it. This sort of thing was absurdly prevalent in 1E ... but TOs are waking up to it in 2E.

Where is the line where you can say ''I KNOW it's in / not in bulleyes?'' Like, sometime another player will be like '' I want to check if I have bulleyes'' even if, from my point of view, he really obviously doesn't have bulleye. Should I call a TO on that? And this is in violation of which rule, exactly?

All i'm saying is, both players get the same info out of it, and in the case of snapshot, usually at a timing that the moving player can react to it, not the player using snapshot.

The failling action and lock, to me, sounds more like the problem is that players didn't have to commit to a particular set of action. They could game multiple options and try them all to find the most advantageous to them. While snapshot only let you check range, and you can still only snapshot once with the talent.

It's probably a difference in perspective, but I really don't see a problem with using snapshot to check range. It's the same thing as TL first round when you know you don't have range to guess where you'll end up next turn, or using a ship that's shooting first to confirm a certain range for another ship before you commit to engaging with it.

19 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Where is the line where you can say ''I KNOW it's in / not in bulleyes?'' Like, sometime another player will be like '' I want to check if I have bulleyes'' even if, from my point of view, he really obviously doesn't have bulleye. Should I call a TO on that?

Oh, come on. You know. Don’t play that game.

It’s a gut thing/judgment call by its nature. Sure, that’s not as satisfying as a bright line rule, but bright line rules tend to get abused more.

Measuring for a lock or Snap Shot when enemy ships are 2ft away to gain manoeuvring info is clearly bollocks.

I may as well just check my 2 bank template is still the right shape and hasn't suddenly heat warped, by holding it up in front on my face and examining it's dimensions, during the planning phase.

Or maybe I just extend my fingers exactly this far to pick up that piece of invisible fluff next to my ship while I contemplate my action.

Measuring for either when it may trigger and thereby gaining useful extra info is merely fortuitous.

Everybody knows when they are gaming something. Take happy accidents, sure. You want to game the system for extra info, sure, be that way, but don't pretend you aren't dropping some bollocks into the mix.

Personally, I take huge satisfaction in estimating millimetres correctly and would feel like I'd stepped in something unpleasant, if I were to sneak around that part of the game.

I fully accept that I am a purist and other people simply like to find a way to win. I will not judge if a 'gamer' is honest about what they are doing.

But I might call one.....

I think there's a point where excessive Snap Shot/Foresight measurement could be grounds for unsporting conduct or delay of game.

• Foresight ship beaming a laser line along their Bullseye constantly without interrupting play? I kinda don't mind.
• Doing a Snap Shot range-check if, say, you're almost surely at Range 3 and a little out of arc, but if it's very fast in terms of time (like, you just wave the range 2 ruler near your ship), and not every time? Eh, ok.
• Checking everything (range 5-6 stuff, ships clearly behind), being meticulous and not fast-paced? Yeah, a TO should be called, and that's unsporting behavior.

Step 1.) Laser pointer for arc if necessary

Step 2.) Then maybe measure range instead of wasting game time

13 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Step 1.) Laser pointer for arc if necessary

Step 2.) Then maybe measure range instead of wasting game time

Fickle's point #2 does bring in the aspect of slow-play abuse to the range check. If you are doing it EVERY round (even when you know it isn't close) you could run into a situation where your opponent calls you out for slow-play. They have every right to do this (planning out your dial is technically "legal" as well, but it can also be abused).

Please make sure you are getting all 7 points out of your upgrade, but PLEASE also remember that we have stricter floor rules that give the judges a lot more power to punish people for being a total D!ck.