5 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:I feel like the new rules reference has made the last 7 pages moot. Tractor and the Nantex, especially multiple Nantex, have had a number of their NPE aspects nerfed.
If you haven't read it already, please do so.
Has it, though? They don't affect medium/large bases so easily, and they can't chain-tractor. These were mentioned, but neither struck me as the main NPE elements that people dislike. Were there other nerfs that I missed?
14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Has it, though? They don't affect medium/large bases so easily, and they can't chain-tractor. These were mentioned, but neither struck me as the main NPE elements that people dislike. Were there other nerfs that I missed?
I’m not seeing any... I think he was under the impression that people were stacking tractor tokens to debuff the **** out of a single ship’s agility, or moving a ship more than once via tractor tokens.
There are a lot of other interesting changes, however. The Device upgrade is now called a Payload. And an ionized ship can only take a focus action (no linking allowed).
18 minutes ago, JJ48 said:Has it, though? They don't affect medium/large bases so easily, and they can't chain-tractor. These were mentioned, but neither struck me as the main NPE elements that people dislike. Were there other nerfs that I missed?
Larger ships don't subtract one agility until their fully tractored. They can't use Ensnare to move each other around. They can only be moved the first time they're tractored each round. Ions also hinder them; they can't perform a Rotate action when ionized, so they can't give themselves a tractor token.
1 minute ago, PhantomFO said:Larger ships don't subtract one agility until their fully tractored. They can't use Ensnare to move each other around. They can only be moved the first time they're tractored each round. Ions also hinder them; they can't perform a Rotate action when ionized, so they can't give themselves a tractor token.
And those are all good changes, but I don't think they address the biggest complaints about the ship.
I am having a lot of difficulty remaining civil while reading the current threads related to the Nantex. I've written and deleted this response three times now, trying and failing to keep a civil tone.
**** it.
Anything that challenges the supremacy of Aces is perfectly fine in my book.
Don't like Nantex? Start bringing a large base or two in your list. Nantex just plain **** themselves when they see them. Problem solved.
Now I'm going to try to figure out how to lock/block this thread, because it's giving me heartburn. I hope y'all have a better day.
2 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:I am having a lot of difficulty remaining civil while reading the current threads related to the Nantex. I've written and deleted this response three times now, trying and failing to keep a civil tone.
**** it.
Anything that challenges the supremacy of Aces is perfectly fine in my book.
Don't like Nantex? Start bringing a large base or two in your list. Nantex just plain **** themselves when they see them. Problem solved.
Now I'm going to try to figure out how to lock/block this thread, because it's giving me heartburn. I hope y'all have a better day.
So your solution is that lists should have hard counters, and people should build to counter their opponents rather than flying what they like?
15 minutes ago, JJ48 said:So your solution is that lists should have hard counters, and people should build to counter their opponents rather than flying what they like?
I mean, sure. Nothing wrong with having to consider matchups when designing a well balanced list instead of just going all in on one archetype of pilot
The problem here is the anti-ace ship is itself an i6 ace...that is curiously resistant to blocking
So , yeah ...
Edited by ficklegreendice22 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:Don't like Nantex? Start bringing a large base or two in your list. Nantex just plain **** themselves when they see them. Problem solved.
The thing I love most about the nantex, namely the strong bullseye primary, helps a good bit against bigger ships.
17 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:I am having a lot of difficulty remaining civil while reading the current threads related to the Nantex. I've written and deleted this response three times now, trying and failing to keep a civil tone.
**** it.
Anything that challenges the supremacy of Aces is perfectly fine in my book.
Don't like Nantex? Start bringing a large base or two in your list. Nantex just plain **** themselves when they see them. Problem solved.
Now I'm going to try to figure out how to lock/block this thread, because it's giving me heartburn. I hope y'all have a better day.
Changing the Nantex’s ship ability to only activate when it has fully completed a maneuver (was not blocked, and/or did not land on an asteroid), does not inhibit it’s ability to challenge aces. It would be a good errata change, and would keep to other “after performing maneuver” ship abilities, such as Full Throttle on the Defender or Naboo hotrod.
Also at 50pts a piece, I’m so going to run a wolfpack of Nantex Arena Aces with Predator and Ensnare, just so I can throw a Batwing onto an asteroid. Repeatedly.
6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:I mean, sure. Nothing wrong with having to consider matchups when designing a well balanced list instead of just going all in on one archetype of pilot
Counters are fine.
Hard counters are bad game design.
Edited by It’s One Of Ours18 minutes ago, JJ48 said:So your solution is that lists should have hard counters, and people should build to counter their opponents rather than flying what they like?
I get your point, but there are already many times in this game where you do have to change your list if you want a better chance to win. I love flying slow, low agility, somewhat heavy hitting ships (yv, kimogila, scurgg). I get absolutey obliterated by force users since they basically get double action (using force tokens on focus results, plus their actual action). This makes them hit as hard as my ships (usually from a TL and using force to change any remaining eye results) and then they take much less damage (again using remaining force to convert focus results to evades). Then since most are in fast ships with added agility (delta for ex) they just fly out of arc from my slow ships for a turn and come back and do it again. Because of this ive started adding higher initiative fragile aces like Fenn Rau even though i dont like flying ships like that. I guess what im saying is i agree with your point, however there are already examples in this game where flying what you like vs winning are to very seperate things, even in 2nd edition.
10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:I mean, sure. Nothing wrong with having to consider matchups when designing a well balanced list instead of just going all in on one archetype of pilot
The problem here is the anti-ace ship is itself an i6 ace...that is curiously resistant to blocking
So , yeah ...
My opposition to the idea isn't considering match-ups or trying to make a balanced list; it's the idea of drastically changing your list to counter a single ship, which you may or may not even face.
3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:My opposition to the idea isn't considering match-ups or trying to make a balanced list; it's the idea of drastically changing your list to counter a single ship, which you may or may not even face.
Also known as the “everyone needs at least PS 7 and Veteran Instincts so I can counter Whisper.”
While I share concern with many above posts, I frankly don't understand why everyone is saying blocking should work against them? Thematically, Pinpoint Tractor Arrays work precisely by getting right up next to another ship and swinging themselves around relative to them. The closer the range, the more powerful the ability. You don't block these things. If there's going to be one ship type in the game that blocking doesn't do much against, it should be this one.
That said, every ship needs reasonable (not far-fetched or matchup-dependent) counterplay in order to be considered fair. What you're bringing in your list doesn't count as counterplay because it's not something you're doing in-game. Typically aces are susceptible to bumping. Okay, so if this one isn't (for thematic reasons), then what is its weakness? I haven't heard any yet.
Without ensnare, these things are priced like TIE Interceptors, but with an extra hull, an extra talent, an extra (mobile) arc, 3 actions per turn, and no stress, at the cost of one die of each color. Maybe that's a fair trade? With ensnare, they're priced like Starvipers, but without the shield or stress, and gaining the evade action, an extra arc, and better action economy AND gaining an unprecedented number of perfect-information positioning options.
It seems to me like at least 85-90% of the problem is specifically the "Ensnare" talent, which is possibly as underpriced as SR was on release. Properly priced and scaled (Say a loaded Sun Fac is around 100 points), would it still be such a problem?
Not having played against them at all yet, it's hard for me to grasp exactly what they can do. Assuming you have 2 X-Wings against Sun Fac, your goal is to land your two ships about R2 from each other, facing him at about R4. If he moves fast, he still can't catch you. If he moves slow or turns he might be able to tractor himself out of your arcs completely, so you can do it again. Honestly it seems a lot like fighting Fenn: You want to catch him at R2 or beyond, but it's tricky because of his positioning ability, except they have more of it.
Hmmm. I need to see a heat map. I feel like these are pretty susceptible to being accurately predicted , not in the sense of blocking them, but in the sense of getting the range control you want, since if you do catch them beyond R1, they basically can't/don't want to reposition at all.
Edited by ClassicalMoser28 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:Counters are fine.
Hard counters are bad game design.
Well it's not really a "hard counter" as he equally ****s over every small based ship
That's really a combination of issues rather than just Ensnare, biggest one being that the Nantex is perhaps THE biggest beneficiary of moving after and shooting before the opponent
15 minutes ago, JJ48 said:My opposition to the idea isn't considering match-ups or trying to make a balanced list; it's the idea of drastically changing your list to counter a single ship, which you may or may not even face.
The thing is, the Nantex pilot is having to do that as well. They need to have a plan for the inevitable match against Chiraneau or Han if they want to see consistent play.
24 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:While I share concern with many above posts, I frankly don't understand why everyone is saying blocking should work against them? Thematically, Pinpoint Tractor Arrays work precisely by getting right up next to another ship and swinging themselves around relative to them. The closer the range, the more powerful the ability. You don't block these things. If there's going to be one ship type in the game that blocking doesn't do much against, it should be this one.
........
At their fastest, the Nantex moves at the 5-speed straight of a Tie Interceptor or A-Wing that is boosting. Except with the added benefit of being able to do so while flying through an asteroid. If that lands them within Range 1, the at the end of the activation they can dump the tractor token onto their happess victim .
I totally get that thematically the ship has a unique tractor array that allows it to pull crazy maneuvers and do weird ****. But getting blocked and bumping into a ship to me has always represented a misjudgement or unexpected development of the battlefied that the pilot wasn’t ready for. And as a result, they lose their action and don’t complete their maneuver because they’re too damned busy trying to not die. Self preservation tends to be an automatic response that takes over all other concerns in the moment.
The Nantex still would be a crazy, quirky ship if getting blocked stopped it’s PTA. If anything it would only add to the skill and fun (for me), because you’d now have to run a knife-edge of getting close, but not too close. Ensnare is why PTA not having to fully complete a maneuver is a problem... But the easiest fix would be to adjust PTA itself.
Edited by It’s One Of Ours15 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:The thing is, the Nantex pilot is having to do that as well. They need to have a plan for the inevitable match against Chiraneau or Han if they want to see consistent play.
Hence where it goes from 1 Nantex in a list, to a wolfpack of 3. Fum Sac and 2 Arena Aces, can all take Ensnare and Predator for a nice even 180pts, and still have enough room for an I-1 Vulture and a 1pt bid.
1 minute ago, It’s One Of Ours said:Hence where it goes from 1 Nantex in a list, to a wolfpack of 3. Fum Sac and 2 Arena Aces, can all take Ensnare and Predator for a nice even 180pts, and still have enough room for an I-1 Vulture and a 1pt bid.
A standard Chiraneau would still absolutely destroy this list, especially once one member of the wolfpack goes down.
5 minutes ago, executor said:Literally all of you whiners look like this
You use that word, “literally”... yet I do not think you actually know what it means.
In my eyes you do my friend
4 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:A standard Chiraneau would still absolutely destroy this list, especially once one member of the wolfpack goes down.
Probably. I’d still love to try it on him. It’s not every day you get to tractor a large ship onto some obstacles.
Just now, executor said:In my eyes you do my friend
You have to at least buy me dinner first before you can have me in your eyes.
22 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:But getting blocked and bumping into a ship to me has always represented a misjudgement or unexpected development of the battlefied that the pilot wasn’t ready for.
Arvel, Oicunn, Zeb/Hera? Anything with Intimdiation? Kath Scarlett's friends? Feedback Array?
You sure about that bro? This is starting to just sound like whining...
Edited by ClassicalMoser6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:Arvel, Oicunn, Zeb/Hera? Anything with Intimdiation? Kath Scarlett's friends? Feedback Array?
You sure about that bro? This is starting to just sound like whining...
Exception given to some pilots, ruthless pirate queens, and Decimator captains who have a large bulldozer on their prow.
Feedback Array is... well... yeah... It does have some hefty penalties, however.
