2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:I've seen numerous comments about them being frustrating or NPE, but has anyone actually claimed they're OP yet?
I'm testing now. Can confirm frustrating, trying to confirm OP. Specifically looking at counterplay and effectiveness thereof.
So all the whining and complaining in this thread.. Is it because your lists that you usually win with aren't winning anymore and it makes you angry?
Or are you having too much difficulty building a list that will counter it and still be effective?
Perhaps the way you normally fly your list?
Either way, eventually you must realize that there are people out there that will find effective ways of dealing with these ships.
All of this complaining just makes you look like children. I literally picture every whining keyboard warrior in here as 10 year old boys that don't have the attention span to spend time thinking and strategizing and instead crying to the high heavens when they get destroyed by something they never came prepared for.
The ship's been out for a week.
A week!
Chill!
6 minutes ago, executor said:So all the whining and complaining in this thread.. Is it because your lists that you usually win with aren't winning anymore and it makes you angry?
Or are you having too much difficulty building a list that will counter it and still be effective?
Perhaps the way you normally fly your list?
Either way, eventually you must realize that there are people out there that will find effective ways of dealing with these ships.
All of this complaining just makes you look like children. I literally picture every whining keyboard warrior in here as 10 year old boys that don't have the attention span to spend time thinking and strategizing and instead crying to the high heavens when they get destroyed by something they never came prepared for.
The ship's been out for a week.
A week!
Chill!
3 hours ago, heychadwick said:I disagree that every ship's weakness is being at R2-3. Look at a B-wing. It can tank all day long and wants to just Trade shots with someone. Some ships can take being shot at and some suffer more for it.
The Nantex suffers under sustained fire. You get enough shots at it and its rolling green dice like everyone else and only had 1 action to help it. It's just a Tie Fighter with Hull Upgrade. Spread out your ships and you can kill a Nantex in one round (or seriously cripple it).
The Nantex does big things when it gets in close against other ships. If you are flying in formation or with just a few ships, it will be hard to get a shot on it. If you spread out your ships and try to get greater arcs of fire, you can beat it. If you only have 3 High Aces, you will have a hard time, which is OK in my book.
You missed the point. I didn’t say every ship’s weakness is getting shot at Range 2-3. X is a variable in the original statement, because the reality is every ship is weak to getting shot at. Saying “shoot them at range -X-“ isn’t a helpful comment, because it can be applied universally with different range-bands and should is a no-brainer. Of course it’s best to attempt to deal with a quick knife-fighter at a distance, that is rudimentary.
Ditto to your second part, which is summed up as “just focus fire it”, or saying “it’s a tie fighter with a hull upgrade. Because yes, focus firing and drowning something like a Tie Interceptor in a multitude of 2-dice attacks works. And besides that, if Tie Fighters had an extra talent slot, and could take a 10 to 24 point talent that allowed them to tractor a Range 1 opposing ship while some other element of the game is making them skip their Action during that Activation, people would really hate playing against those as well.
10 minutes ago, executor said:So all the whining and complaining in this thread.. Is it because your lists that you usually win with aren't winning anymore and it makes you angry?
Or are you having too much difficulty building a list that will counter it and still be effective?
Perhaps the way you normally fly your list?
Either way, eventually you must realize that there are people out there that will find effective ways of dealing with these ships.
All of this complaining just makes you look like children. I literally picture every whining keyboard warrior in here as 10 year old boys that don't have the attention span to spend time thinking and strategizing and instead crying to the high heavens when they get destroyed by something they never came prepared for.
The ship's been out for a week.
A week!
Chill!
Did...did you even read any of the posts? It doesn't appear to me that people are complaining about it being unbeatable or OP; they're saying they don't find it fun to play against, which is a perfectly valid complaint. You don't have to agree with their assessment, but to dismiss it as people whining about a loss demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of the discussion.
Edited by JJ481 minute ago, JJ48 said:Did...did you even read any of the posts? It doesn't appear to me that people are complaining about it being unbeatable or OP; they're saying they don't find it fun to play against, which is a perfectly valid complaint. You don't have to agree with their assessment, but dismiss it as people whining about a loss demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of people's arguments.
I don't see anyone posting their lists, discussing effective strategies and list theory crafting to counter it. Instead i read complaint after complaint, whoa is me, ffg needs to nerf.. Blah blah blah
1 hour ago, Archangelspiv said:I cannot wait to hear what people say about Vonreggs TIE/ba, it flies in a much different way than normal ships, it requires a fair amount of pre planning. Try it out on @Sandrem 's fly casual app. Makes you think. Vonregg can make you easier to hit, or less potent when you shoot. Cannot wait for the moaning at Christmas time...
AMEN! If a Jedi gets into a sticky situation, it's a 5 straight, boost away, focus, then regen with R2 and spend a turn or 2 regenning force, ready to re engage . Jedi can be painful, but there has been a lot less moaning about them.
1) ... Not really? Fine-tuned thrusters isn't terribly different from autothrusters. It triggers after you complete a maneuver without bumping. It has a somewhat different economy, but that's nothing compared to the Nantex getting to ignore bumping and obstacles when repositioning with the tractor array.
As for Vonregg vs. Ensnare... It's one pilot with a much more stringent trigger and a weaker debuff vs. a talent available to an entire ship. Not a great comparison IMO.
2) It's not 1:1, but I'm seeing a lot of the same people who have been expressing concern or frustration about the Delta-7 criticizing the Nantex. They do seem to be going after the Nantex more harshly, though. If I had to guess, it's a combination of tapping into existing frustrations combined with the Nantex doing more to affect the opponent directly instead of the jedi primarily buffing themselves.
Look, I'm reserving final judgement on the Nantex until I get to play against it. But it is setting off a lot of warning flags.
______________________________________
Couple of thoughts on the Nantex that didn't really fit into the above response
1) While the rule of 11 is definitely going to be an important strategy against Nantexes, with a fantastic dial, higher initiative, and stressless-repositioning not tied to their action, the Nantex has a lot more range control than a Jumpmaster or Quadjumper. In particular, stopping them from getting to range 1 is going to be a lot harder than the jump from range 4 to range 1 that was used against jumpmasters. On the other hand, the nantex is a lot frailer than either of the above, which will make punishing mistakes easier.
2) ARCs actually seem like a pretty good counter to the Nantex on first pass. It takes 2 tractor tokens to move one ARC, the ARC has the raw HP and firepower to win a slugging match with the Nantex even debuffed, and the back arc allows for some unconventional killboxes. Just food for thought.
3) How does the Large base vs. Nantex fight go? Does the bullseye give the Nantex enough firepower to compete, or can something like the Ghost just plow through them?
Just a thought, but creating rock free zones to lessen the impact of PTA may well just play into the hands of the droids accompanying said PTA.
Also, whether you think the Nantex is a sledgehammer or a toothpick, declaring each other's opinions invalid at this stage is just not decent behaviour.
6 minutes ago, executor said:I don't see anyone posting their lists, discussing effective strategies and list theory crafting to counter it.
Which should have been a clue that the problem wasn't that it can't be beaten, but that people don't consider it fun regardless of whether they beat it or not.
27 minutes ago, executor said:So all the whining and complaining in this thread.. Is it because your lists that you usually win with aren't winning anymore and it makes you angry?
It’s because I tend to be of the viewpoint that if your ship gets blocked, you shouldn’t get an action that activation unless something with a significant drawback allowed you to take an action prior to maneuvering. Or in the extremely rare case, a specific pilot ability allows a ship to do so.
Supernatural Reflexes breaks that tremendously, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth... But at an extremely high scaling price tag, and an availability limited to already extremely expensive pilots. Meanwhile Advanced Sensors and Precog have their own limitations, namely in that you get that one (and only one) action during the activation, regardless of linked actions or other card effects such as Afterburners. The Nantex is the only ship in the game without access to Force or Sensors, and that can ignore bumping and indeed reposition itself and tractor a nearby opposing ship, despite not completing a maneuver and losing it’s action.
With Ensnare it’s effectively an unstoppable Range 1, front 270 rotating arc, tractor beam, applied at end of activation (via a tractor token that gets removed).
Edited by It’s One Of Ours6 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:It’s because I tend to be of the viewpoint that if your ship gets blocked, you shouldn’t get an action that activation unless something with a significant drawback allowed you to take an action prior to maneuvering.
Supernatural Reflexes breaks that tremendously, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth... But at an extremely high scaling price tag, and an availability limited to already extremely expensive pilots. Meanwhile Advanced Sensors and Precog have their own limitations, namely in that you get that one (and only one) action during the activation, regardless of linked actions or other card effects such as Afterburners. The Nantex is the only ship in the game without access to Force or Sensors, and that can ignore bumping and indeed reposition itself and tractor a nearby opposing ship, despite not completing a maneuver and losing it’s action. With Ensnare it’s effectively an unstoppable Range 1, front 270 rotating arc, tractor beam, applied at end of activation (via a tractor token that gets removed).
What if Ensnare worked like Passive Sensors?
44 minutes ago, executor said:So all the whining and complaining in this thread.. Is it because your lists that you usually win with aren't winning anymore and it makes you angry?
Or are you having too much difficulty building a list that will counter it and still be effective?
Perhaps the way you normally fly your list?
Either way, eventually you must realize that there are people out there that will find effective ways of dealing with these ships.
All of this complaining just makes you look like children. I literally picture every whining keyboard warrior in here as 10 year old boys that don't have the attention span to spend time thinking and strategizing and instead crying to the high heavens when they get destroyed by something they never came prepared for.
The ship's been out for a week.
A week!
Chill!
If I put this comment into a post about phantoms the week they first dropped it would fit right in.
36 minutes ago, executor said:I don't see anyone posting their lists, discussing effective strategies and list theory crafting to counter it. Instead i read complaint after complaint, whoa is me, ffg needs to nerf.. Blah blah blah
“Don’t fly small ships anymore. And especially don’t fly aces” is a restriction most of us don’t think is good for the game.
Edited by TasteTheRainbow28 minutes ago, Squark said:Couple of thoughts on the Nantex that didn't really fit into the above response
1) While the rule of 11 is definitely going to be an important strategy against Nantexes, with a fantastic dial, higher initiative, and stressless-repositioning not tied to their action, the Nantex has a lot more range control than a Jumpmaster or Quadjumper. In particular, stopping them from getting to range 1 is going to be a lot harder than the jump from range 4 to range 1 that was used against jumpmasters. On the other hand, the nantex is a lot frailer than either of the above, which will make punishing mistakes easier.
2) ARCs actually seem like a pretty good counter to the Nantex on first pass. It takes 2 tractor tokens to move one ARC, the ARC has the raw HP and firepower to win a slugging match with the Nantex even debuffed, and the back arc allows for some unconventional killboxes. Just food for thought.
3) How does the Large base vs. Nantex fight go? Does the bullseye give the Nantex enough firepower to compete, or can something like the Ghost just plow through them?
27 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:declaring each other's opinions invalid at this stage is just not decent behaviour.
....Much as I'd like to agree, have you spent much time on the internet? Unsupported opinion slinging is basically what it's for , these days.
* EDIT: My apologies. The Attack Shuttle also can. But two of it's turn speeds are red.
This ship is exactly the kind of experience I love about X-Wing. It makes me reevaluate how to fly my ships to counter what my opponent is doing. I don't find these ships any more irritating than flying against jedi. The biggest complaint seems to be that someone else is modifying your ship's position. I get that people want to have full control over their ship and not let the other player have any say in what it does. The thing is these ships only get at most a single reposition, the other reposition ability is one of your ships (only if it is small). If you have more than one ship pointed at the Nantex it can only get one of your ships out of the way. You still have the rest of your fleet to burn it down. These things do not like to joust, they want to be strafing from the sidelines. The best strategy against these is to joust it down first. Much like a Quadjumper, if it doesn't die first it will seriously mess up your list. They are not powerful ships, just a nuisance that can easily be swatted if you don't ignore them
Well, new RRG just nerfed tractor shenanigans multiple times...that was fast
Recap of changes that affect Nantex
:
1. Timing change means you can't do Nantex hot potato and toss a single tractor across multiple ships (they wouldn't meet the prerequisites to go in the ability queue now)
2. Ship only moves the first time it's tractored each round so you can't ditch your token, then get another one from a buddy to move again
3. You only lose a die when you're "Tractored", not just by having a tractor token on you
4. Change to Ion precludes using ship ability while ioned because you cannot perform the necessary rotate action.
Edited by MasterShake2The more I "head-sim" this out, I wonder if giving the I6 Sun Fac initiative is the best way to deal with them, assuming you have the bid to do so. If they move before my I6, then they are going to need to be pretty good to hit me with the tractor token. (I also think disengaging is a tactic that few players use when faced with an I6 or Sun Fac - you can't tractor a ship that isn't there)
41 minutes ago, JJ48 said:What if Ensnare worked like Passive Sensors?
Transfer the tractor token if something ends within range 1, and if not you get a calculate (or focus)? Ensnare is what make’s the self-tractoring to rotate turret despite being blocked, into a problem. Ensare’s only real issue is possibly cost.
3 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:Transfer the tractor token if something ends within range 1, and if not you get a calculate (or focus)? Ensnare is what make’s the self-tractoring to rotate turret despite being blocked, into a problem. Ensare’s only real issue is possibly cost.
I was thinking of the bit about requiring an action to set it up.
42 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:
- ...Very few ships have every speed of bank and turn available. I can't think of any other than the Nantex can also fire sideways*.
....
* EDIT: My apologies. The Attack Shuttle also can. But two of it's turn speeds are red.
Dash says hi.
Dash then immediately begins uncontrollably sobbing once again at being the single most overpriced ship in the entire game at the moment.
Not trying to shoot down your point, in fact, it strengthens it, since clearly the YT-2400 pays through the nose for that flexibility.
Edited by FatherTurin52 minutes ago, JJ48 said:I was thinking of the bit about requiring an action to set it up.
Ah, I’m following you now. Yeah, that would work. But with the card printed, that’d be a very hefty errata.
2 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:You missed the point. I didn’t say every ship’s weakness is getting shot at Range 2-3. X is a variable in the original statement, because the reality is every ship is weak to getting shot at. Saying “shoot them at range -X-“ isn’t a helpful comment, because it can be applied universally with different range-bands and should is a no-brainer. Of course it’s best to attempt to deal with a quick knife-fighter at a distance, that is rudimentary.
Ditto to your second part, which is summed up as “just focus fire it”, or saying “it’s a tie fighter with a hull upgrade. Because yes, focus firing and drowning something like a Tie Interceptor in a multitude of 2-dice attacks works. And besides that, if Tie Fighters had an extra talent slot, and could take a 10 to 24 point talent that allowed them to tractor a Range 1 opposing ship while some other element of the game is making them skip their Action during that Activation, people would really hate playing against those as well.
Those aren't helpful comments? Try to engage at at distance. Don't clump all your ships together. Spread your ships out to try to get a wide birth of firing arcs. Try to be smart on the engagement and remember the Rule of 11. Do your best to blast the ship at a further range.
The ship only has 3 Agility and 4 Hull. It has one action a turn that is either a Focus or an Evade. Multiple shots will put a hurt on it, if not kill it outright.
This is how you deal with it. What's so hard to understand? If you want even more in depth see my other comments in the same thread.
1 hour ago, dunhop said:...
These things do not like to joust, they want to be strafing from the sidelines. The best strategy against these is to joust it down first. Much like a Quadjumper, if it doesn't die first it will seriously mess up your list. They are not powerful ships, just a nuisance that can easily be swatted if you don't ignore them
I’d say the Nantex is more like the Quadjumper’s meth-addicted cousin who seems to be better and faster at doing everything the Quadjumper does. Well, except scooting backwards. Who also doesn’t have to joust.
To be clear, my issues with the Nantex is not in flying against them. When I joke and say “Mistakes were made”, they really were... It is far easier for me to list what I don’t own, than it is to list what I do and how many of each. My viewpoint on the Nantex’s PTA needing to be a full complete maneuver comes from someone who will be definitely be running these, and throwing enemy ships onto buzzdroid swarms for a laugh. If I get skillfully blocked while flying Sum Facker, I expect him to die in a glorious fireball... Not dance merrily out of the way and tractor his blocker.
I feel like the new rules reference has made the last 7 pages moot. Tractor and the Nantex, especially multiple Nantex, have had a number of their NPE aspects nerfed.
If you haven't read it already, please do so.
6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Those aren't helpful comments? Try to engage at at distance. Don't clump all your ships together. Spread your ships out to try to get a wide birth of firing arcs. Try to be smart on the engagement and remember the Rule of 11. Do your best to blast the ship at a further range.
The ship only has 3 Agility and 4 Hull. It has one action a turn that is either a Focus or an Evade. Multiple shots will put a hurt on it, if not kill it outright.
This is how you deal with it. What's so hard to understand? If you want even more in depth see my other comments in the same thread.
With all respect, thos are only helpful comments to someone still learning the fine details of this game. It’s a nice way of saying “Git Gud”. We already know it’s a beast of a knife-fighter, and has 3 Agility on a platform with less than 5 total health.