2 minutes ago, dunhop said:

I love the quirky design of this ship, but I give it only a few months until only the die-hards are still flying this ship. It is very high skill level, high risk ship. Those don't tend to stick around in the meta for long and are generally only seen during casual play. Bumping means you're throwing completely un-modded dice (and if you're anything like me, that means I will completely miss a Decimator at range 1 with Sun Fac), but getting that tractor beam off is very satisfying.

...the enemy being -1 die and you getting +1 die is not "unmodded". Also it took exactly 1 game for me to be permanently attached to predator on non-Chertek ships because when you're just ramming people, you R1 bullseye a lot.

On 9/16/2019 at 2:20 PM, Naerytar said:

Wedges ability is unavoidable.
Locks via Jendon are unavoidable.
Finn shenanigans is unavoidable.
The game is full of unavoidable effects.

But in this case the opponent does something with YOUR ships, which somehow "isn't allowed". It's an irrational psychological reflex, nothing more. Reminds me of blue being hated in Magic the Gathering.
I doubt it's even strong enough to see top tier tournament play.

Besides that: It's not even that unavoidable. You can try to stay out of R1.

To a certain extent, control elements are an expected and even necessary part of games like this. However, it is certainly possible for control elements to become too much, and personally, I dislike games where entire decks can be devoted to only control. I've not played Magic, but I've encountered other games where you can't really do anything because the opponent's entire deck is devoted to preventing or canceling everything you attempt. It's simply not fun when the entire game comes down to, "If your deck isn't specifically designed to counter control, you lose."

Now, I have neither played nor fought the Nantex, so I can't say whether it crosses the line (though my own suspicion is that it does not), but I'm just pointing out that justifying some control elements doesn't automatically justify all control elements.

36 minutes ago, dunhop said:

I love the quirky design of this ship, but I give it only a few months until only the die-hards are still flying this ship. It is very high skill level, high risk ship. Those don't tend to stick around in the meta for long and are generally only seen during casual play. Bumping means you're throwing completely un-modded dice (and if you're anything like me, that means I will completely miss a Decimator at range 1 with Sun Fac), but getting that tractor beam off is very satisfying.

You’re probably right, but Soontir is a pretty ready example of high skill high risk sticking around in the meta. If the reward is good enough they’ll stick around.

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

To a certain extent, control elements are an expected and even necessary part of games like this. However, it is certainly possible for control elements to become too much, and personally, I dislike games where entire decks can be devoted to only control. I've not played Magic, but I've encountered other games where you can't really do anything because the opponent's entire deck is devoted to preventing or canceling everything you attempt. It's simply not fun when the entire game comes down to, "If your deck isn't specifically designed to counter control, you lose."

I played Magic early on, and on occasion over the years. Mono-Blue decks were basically “No-Fun Zones”. Pain in the *** the play against, no matter what you were running. Blue mixed in equally with other colors was more tolerable, and less irritating. And Blue “splashed” into a deck was there as an “oh ****” defense.

Friends didn’t let friends play mono-blue. Unless they had a deck or two filled with uncounterables.

7 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

You’re probably right, but Soontir is a pretty ready example of high skill high risk sticking around in the meta. If the reward is good enough they’ll stick around.

He’s also an example of an Ace that can (and should) be blocked. Block him, and he melts. The chalenge is in knowing his plethora of maneuver options, and correctly figuring where he’ll go.

Sum Facker practically ignores being blocked. All it does is keep him from getting a focus or evade, but does noting to stop him tractor-repositioning, rotating his turret, shrugging the tractor off onto someone else and repositioning them, and getting +1 dice against a tractored opponent, all in the same turn.

Even the Quad TugThumpers need an action to be obnoxious.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I really do think that the route FFG will go with this ship is to simply errata the Pinpoint Tractor Array to require the ship to complete a maneuver. Thus opening it up to being blocked. I really don’t see anything else specifically wrong with it, except Entangle maybe needing a few more points tacked on.

This is definitely a sensible solution if it gets out of hand. I haven't had an opportunity to go up against the nantex yet.

I also would add that people might be interpreting the rotate action incorrectly and assuming they can rotate to their current arc its never really came up before.

15 minutes ago, reqent said:

This is definitely a sensible solution if it gets out of hand. I haven't had an opportunity to go up against the nantex yet.

I also would add that people might be interpreting the rotate action incorrectly and assuming they can rotate to their current arc its never really came up before.

Wasn't there some pilot or gunner who let you rotate your arc and fire again, or something? It should already be clarified.

43 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

He’s also an example of an Ace that can (and should) be blocked. Block him, and he melts. The chalenge is in knowing his plethora of maneuver options, and correctly figuring where he’ll go.

Sum Facker practically ignores being blocked. All it does is keep him from getting a focus or evade, but does noting to stop him tractor-repositioning, rotating his turret, shrugging the tractor off onto someone else and repositioning them, and getting +1 dice against a tractored opponent, all in the same turn.

Even the Quad TugThumpers need an action to be obnoxious.

Soontir Fel has the weakness of "block him". The Nantex has a similar weakness. It's called "shoot him at R2-3". If the Nantex is not within R1 of an enemy, it gets 1 Boost or BR and can't pass off the Tractor token. He will be at 2-3 green dice with a single Focus token.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Wasn't there some pilot or gunner who let you rotate your arc and fire again, or something? It should already be clarified.

If I'm catching your reference correctly that would be a Starfortress with both Paige Gunner and Vet Tur Gunner.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

If I'm catching your reference correctly that would be a Starfortress with both Paige Gunner and Vet Tur Gunner.

That's probably it. I just recall a discussion that covered the "can't rotate to effectively same arc (including 180 on a bow tie)" ruling not too many months ago.

Did the same people playing the nantex play that turreted ship? I had to check the rules reference before I posted because it was never relevant to me before.

When you see some posters implying it's the worst thing to happen to game while others thinks it's just okay, theres a discrepancy somewhere.

13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Soontir Fel has the weakness of "block him". The Nantex has a similar weakness. It's called "shoot him at R2-3". If the Nantex is not within R1 of an enemy, it gets 1 Boost or BR and can't pass off the Tractor token. He will be at 2-3 green dice with a single Focus token.

That’s if it’s eager to reposition while out in open space. The more likely event is that (like most turreted ships) it won’t try to tractor-reposition or rotate turret because the turret is positioned for initial engagement. And it’s not going to be in R1. So it Focuses or Evades, and just uses it’s raw dial speed until it can lunge forward (with a 5-straight).

Hence we’re looking 3 to 4 green dice, with a Focus or Evade token. Probably Evade.

Addendum: Also “shoot them at range -X-” isn’t really a weakness, because that’s every ship’s weakness in this game. That’s like saying a B-Wing’s weakness is that it has hull points and can be blowed up.

It sounds to me like the major complaint is with Ensnare, not so much with the Nantex itself. I'd be fine with seeing Ensnare priced like Delta 7B; it really does change the chassis that much.

It's kind of similar to Handbrake Han: No one's saying it's easy to play or hard to play against, strictly. The problem is that if the ace player doesn't make a mistake, there's very little that you actually can do against them, making it super fun for the ace player but super frustrating for their opponent.

If Ensnare went up by 50% (15-15-15-15-24-32), would it still be such a problem? 86 points for Ensnare Sun puts him at a higher price than Rebel Han Solo, and I doubt he could solo a Decimator, YT, a precognitive Kylo, or two TIE/sfs with the gunner...

The amount of positioning power they have with Ensnare really is pretty ridiculous. I saw the price of Ensnare and my knee-jerk reaction was that it's just too cheap.

6 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

That’s if it’s eager to reposition while out in open space. The more likely event is that (like most turreted ships) it won’t try to tractor-reposition or rotate turret because the turret is positioned for initial engagement.

That's assuming the Nantex player has no idea how their ship works... You pretty much never want to shoot out the same arc twice in a row, and with all their white turns and their bonus bullseye arc they really shouldn't have to. When you engage, you start with your arc pointing the definite wrong way so that when the time comes, you can choose which right way you want to put it.

Also one thing I do want to note to be fair with this ship; no one's saying the dial doesn't matter. As many shenanigans as it can pull theoretically, it doesn't help much if their opponent gets in behind them or if they just land way short and are stuck outside range 1. They have to plan well to make it work out.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

...the enemy being -1 die and you getting +1 die is not "unmodded". Also it took exactly 1 game for me to be permanently attached to predator on non-Chertek ships because when you're just ramming people, you R1 bullseye a lot.

4 red dice without tokens vs 2 green dice without tokens: 1.332 expected hits
3 red dice with focus vs 3 green dice without tokens: 1.217 expected hits

So a T-70 with focus shooting at R2 deals pretty much the same amout of damage as a blocked Sun Fac without bullseye against a tractored Soontir.

I think, Sun Fac will be a prime example of theorycrafting clashing with reality. He sounds great, when you craft "the dream" in your head. You tractor yourself and roll out of everyones arc. Then you tractor Soontir. Then you got bullseye. Oh and Soontir is now on a rock!
How often will you get that perfect combo off in actual gameplay? Probably not that often.

And even if you manage to live the dream, he doesn't do more damage than things that are already in the game.

It's all just the psychological effect of being tractored, in my opinion. We'll see how well Sun Fac does in tournaments, but I think, he won't see much play after the initial hype.

7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That's assuming the Nantex player has no idea how their ship works... You pretty much never want to shoot out the same arc twice in a row, and with all their white turns and their bonus bullseye arc they really shouldn't have to. When you engage, you start with your arc pointing the definite wrong way so that when the time comes, you can choose which right way you want to put it.

I never said the turret started in a useful position. I’m saying the Nantex really doesn’t need to rotate its turret during opening engagement until it’s most advantageous to do so. E.G. Straight 5 > Tractor-Boost > Rotate towads enemy > be a Sum Facker with board state knowledge and at Range 1.

5 minutes ago, Naerytar said:

4 red dice without tokens vs 2 green dice without tokens: 1.332 expected hits
3 red dice with focus vs 3 green dice without tokens: 1.217 expected hits

So a T-70 with focus shooting at R2 deals pretty much the same amout of damage as a blocked Sun Fac without bullseye against a tractored Soontir.

I think, Sun Fac will be a prime example of theorycrafting clashing with reality. He sounds great, when you craft "the dream" in your head. You tractor yourself and roll out of everyones arc. Then you tractor Soontir. Then you got bullseye. Oh and Soontir is now on a rock!
How often will you get that perfect combo off in actual gameplay? Probably not that often.

And even if you manage to live the dream, he doesn't do more damage than things that are already in the game.

It's all just the psychological effect of being tractored, in my opinion. We'll see how well Sun Fac does in tournaments, but I think, he won't see much play after the initial hype.

...5 dice while you're -1 die DOES do more damage than anything in the game. Also, Soontir isn't blocking you, Soontir is getting blocked by you, in which case you have mods, or you're moving after him in which case he's dead.

20 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Hot take after a few games. (..) Chertek is also very dumb, in fact possibly dumber because of his lower price point. (..)Overall, the ship is pretty dumb, Chertek is probably undercosted...maybe Fac too even at 78.

Not surprised at all, I called that one immediately.

I wonder how Nantex would fare against a wide net of Tractor beam and Autoblaster Scyks.

But with that gorgeous dial and the Scyk's not good dial the money is probably on the Nantex.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It sounds to me like the major complaint is with Ensnare, not so much with the Nantex itself. I'd be fine with seeing Ensnare priced like Delta 7B; it really does change the chassis that much.

It's kind of similar to Handbrake Han: No one's saying it's easy to play or hard to play against, strictly. The problem is that if the ace player doesn't make a mistake, there's very little that you actually can do against them, making it super fun for the ace player but super frustrating for their opponent.

If Ensnare went up by 50% (15-15-15-15-24-32), would it still be such a problem? 86 points for Ensnare Sun puts him at a higher price than Rebel Han Solo, and I doubt he could solo a Decimator, YT, a precognitive Kylo, or two TIE/sfs with the gunner...

The amount of positioning power they have with Ensnare really is pretty ridiculous. I saw the price of Ensnare and my knee-jerk reaction was that it's just too cheap.

THIS is my major beef with ******* Jedi. Double reposition with mods at high initiative. *IF* you can even get them in arc, *MAYBE* you can hit them. Meanwhile, the other ships in the list are ******* you up from those perfect flanking positions. You don't like Sun Fac with Ensnare? Nowhere near as bad as Jedi. Sun Fac can be one-shotted, just like any other four-hull ship. You ain't touching a ******* Jedi.

#triggered Sorry. Sorry.

10 minutes ago, Naerytar said:

4 red dice without tokens vs 2 green dice without tokens: 1.332 expected hits
3 red dice with focus vs 3 green dice without tokens: 1.217 expected hits

So a T-70 with focus shooting at R2 deals pretty much the same amout of damage as a blocked Sun Fac without bullseye against a tractored Soontir.

I think, Sun Fac will be a prime example of theorycrafting clashing with reality. He sounds great, when you craft "the dream" in your head. You tractor yourself and roll out of everyones arc. Then you tractor Soontir. Then you got bullseye. Oh and Soontir is now on a rock!
How often will you get that perfect combo off in actual gameplay? Probably not that often.

And even if you manage to live the dream, he doesn't do more damage than things that are already in the game.

It's all just the psychological effect of being tractored, in my opinion. We'll see how well Sun Fac does in tournaments, but I think, he won't see much play after the initial hype.

K. Now do Sum Fack at R1 with Predator, bullseye 5 red dice against a tractored T-70/T-65. Or ****, a Y-Wing that gets to swipe its Tindr matches while any damage you roll just gets shoveled through. The rock is situational.

Yes, bumping into Fel, throwing him on a rock, and hoping he blanks out his 2 greens with turtled token support is the “perfect storm” scenario. That’s not really the point. The point is that getting blocked should be a penalty unless you’re a suicidal Z with a Feedback Array. And even then, its not like that Z will do anything beyond 1 damage.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

...5 dice while you're -1 die DOES do more damage than anything in the game. Also, Soontir isn't blocking you, Soontir is getting blocked by you, in which case you have mods, or you're moving after him in which case he's dead.

Not even close without a focus token. And you need bullseye. Getting close to "the dream"... And a double modded Fenn Rau still deals more damage.
I also like how you just casually block Soontir. You know, he's in big trouble against any list, if he is getting blocked, right? If it would be so easy, he wouldn't be so popular.
How about this scenario: You move first, tractor yourself close to Soontir, he does an unexpected move, boost + br out of R1 of Sun Fac. You've accomplished nothing and tractored yourself.

54 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

K. Now do Sum Fack at R1 with Predator, bullseye 5 red dice against a tractored T-70/T-65. Or ****, a Y-Wing that gets to swipe its Tindr matches while any damage you roll just gets shoveled through. The rock is situational.

Yes, bumping into Fel, throwing him on a rock, and hoping he blanks out his 2 greens with turtled token support is the “perfect storm” scenario. That’s not really the point. The point is that getting blocked should be a penalty unless you’re a suicidal Z with a Feedback Array. And even then, its not like that Z will do anything beyond 1 damage.

You can do those calculations yourself

And this "he can't get blocked" thing. That's just an attitude thing. Sun Fac needs different counterplay than other aces. Why would you try to block a ship, that's not blockable? He needs a different aproach. But just because something breaks the usual rules, doesn't mean it's op or even good. It's just new and different.

Is it just me or do these feel like the Scummiest ships in the game right now? And they aren't even in Scum. Whenever I open my app I keep wanting to go to Scum first to look them up but then remember they are in CIS which seems like it has more scummy shenanigans than Scum.

Also, why is Gravitic Deflection a talent? It seems like it should be a modification. Did the Geonosians have some sort of gravity manipulating abilities inherent to the species or something? (I haven't seen Clone Wars so I'm not up on the fluff when it comes to this faction). Maybe FFG just didn't want the Nantex to have a mod slot.

24 minutes ago, Naerytar said:

Not even close without a focus token. And you need bullseye. Getting close to "the dream"... And a double modded Fenn Rau still deals more damage.

What if he has Focus and Predator? Passive reroll, focus mod and enemy -1 die isn't one of the hardest hitting ships in the game? If that's your opinion...I dunno, it's wrong. You keep saying he doesn't have mods, but that's completely wrong, Sun Fac has them more often than he doesn't, the entire point of the bumping discussion it that, unlike Fenn Rau or Soontir or Vader who just bumps and is stuck where they're at, Sun Fac can bump and still arc dodge and still manipulate the position of an enemy...AND still has a turret so when he's dodging past he can still chuck 4 dice while you're -1 die.

Screw it, wait for worlds and tell me your thoughts after that on Sun Fac. I'm calling at least 1, probably 2 or more in the top 16.

6 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

Also, why is Gravitic Deflection a talent? It seems like it should be a modification. Did the Geonosians have some sort of gravity manipulating abilities inherent to the species or something? (I haven't seen Clone Wars so I'm not up on the fluff when it comes to this faction). Maybe FFG just didn't want the Nantex to have a mod slot.

I have wondered about this as well. My only thought is that these are pilot talents because the pilots are using the ship's natural ability in creative ways.

I agree these feel far scummier than most Scum ships, but that might be why I play both Scum and CIS. They both have the same tricky shenanigans that are usually more expensive than they're worth, but hilarious when it works.

1 hour ago, Naerytar said:

You can do those calculations yourself

And this "he can't get blocked" thing. That's just an attitude thing. Sun Fac needs different counterplay than other aces. Why would you try to block a ship, that's not blockable? He needs a different aproach. But just because something breaks the usual rules, doesn't mean it's op or even good. It's just new and different.

I’m already well aware of the calculations. It was a rhetorical request. And you severely underestimate the ability to pull a bullseye when you have a tractor reposition and can tractor reposition your target ship.

No, the issue with blocking is not an “attitude thing”. It’s not even that he can’t be blocked, because in reality he can be. The issue is that it doesn’t penalize him at all, and he can still reposition and throw a tractor at the ship he hit, while getting benefits to do so.

People hate seeing several quad jumpers for a reason (or at least used to), but they need an action to tractor something that had to be in their front arc, at range 1. Ensnare allows the Nantex to tractor something in any of it’s side or front arcs, regardless of whether it can take an action or not, after it repositioned itself via tractor. And it’s more survivable, faster, has a better dial, arguably better attack dice situation, and higher intiative (34 pts for an I3 with talent vs 32 for a Jakku Gunrunner).

Bluntly put, the damned thing shouldn’t be able to take a tractor token and rotate it’s arc if it didn’t fully compete a maneuver. It’s not about “hurr it requires different strategy to play against”, because playing against it would still be interesting and different without hurting the overall performance of the ship.