2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

If you can keep him from stuttering and jumping to r1, it's a game, otherwise, he one-shots a droid every turn, so you're on a finite clock.

I wouldn’t even feel comfortable taking Sum Facker on with a Deadman’s Z swarm... And that’s been my most Stalinesque of lists. Guri or Dalan, sure... but the Starviper is my jam and peanutbutter, and it’s going to be a long drawn-out fight of dodginess and struggling to get into Range 1 only on my terms.

I can hear the power calling...

How long do I get to abuse the crap outta 4 of these until the next points balance? $40 has never looked tastier for short-sighted fun.

11 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

That’s super neato, but he will in fact get an action in the form of taking a tractor and have the ability to take a rotate turret action. He may not get to do a Focus or Evade despite shifting himself off of a bump, but for 42pts you can get a “Glorious Squad Leader” Hive Guard that will let him do it beforehand.

Yes, but the key thing is the Rotate is compulsory if you want to reposition. @PhantomFO is quite right that the chassis is phantom-esque in needing a bit more pre-planning than " I've got supernatural reflexes and autothrusters so today I feel like being over here facing this way ", because you need to plan in where your arc currently is as you need to be in range 1 in not-that-arc; which is a lot less easy than it sounds when your free boost (which I acknowledge is great) won't let you turn like a 'proper' boost.

2 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

but the Starviper is my jam and peanutbutter, and it’s going to be a long drawn-out fight of dodginess and struggling to get into Range 1 only on my terms.

I can't wait to see a well flown Nantex squad engaging a well flown Starviper squad. I feel like it'd be a case of " yes, we both set dials but to be honest they're just guidelines ".

I think there is an attitude that high Init Aces is the height of game play. If you are so good, you can defeat anyone. Many people think this is the way it should be. Anything that does something to the aces that they can't avoid is seen as unfair. I'm thinking dropping Devices on them before they can move and TLT's that they can't really avoid. Anything that can effect The Aces without them avoiding it goes against this belief in how the game should be.

The Nantex messes with that style of play as a hard counter. It is all new and people are trying to figure out how to counter the Nantex. If people don't develop a strategy against it fir the high init aces, I fear we will see a nerf. This is because they will screech loud enough and they have the ear of FFG.

At the moment, I don't have a problem with the Nantex. It still takes skill and isn't an auto win. Fly bad and you will still lose. Also, I don't subscribe to the mentality of the High Aces....that they should be able to win win win as long as they don't make a mistake. I feel as if Xwing is a game where crazy things happen and crazy things can happen to your High Ace. Sometimes you lose based on things your opponent does, not just on if you make a mistake. Sometimes archetypes have a hard counter. I'm OK with there being one for High Aces. Other list types will beat Nantex.

9 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

If you can keep him from stuttering and jumping to r1, it's a game, otherwise, he one-shots a droid every turn, so you're on a finite clock.

Fenn Rau will do the same to those droids, so will alot of other ships.

6 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Fenn Rau will do the same to those droids, so will alot of other ships.

Sun Fac is...different. Fenn Rau doesn't scare my droids at all, but Sun Fac does. When Rau moves and gets blocked, he's just there to be shot at with no mods from the R2 shots. When Fac moves and gets blocked, he isn't there anymore and one of your ships is gone.

10 hours ago, DR4CO said:

My kingdom for an angry react...

Buddy, if this were true, we'd be embracing this ship, given we can take the initiative 6 pilot FFG gave it and play our move-last-and-wreck-face ace game with it.

But we're not, because unlike the people apologising for this ship, we're not idiots blinded by the sugar-high of how invincible it makes you feel and can recognise how BS this stupid thing is.

So take your sanctimonious crap and get lost.

Seriously. I want to fly a little with Sun Fac, since I think they look wicked fun.

But not much, because I don't want to lose friends over it.

39 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think there is an attitude that high Init Aces is the height of game play. If you are so good, you can defeat anyone. Many people think this is the way it should be. Anything that does something to the aces that they can't avoid is seen as unfair. I'm thinking dropping Devices on them before they can move and TLT's that they can't really avoid. Anything that can effect The Aces without them avoiding it goes against this belief in how the game should be.

The Nantex messes with that style of play as a hard counter. It is all new and people are trying to figure out how to counter the Nantex. If people don't develop a strategy against it fir the high init aces, I fear we will see a nerf. This is because they will screech loud enough and they have the ear of FFG.

At the moment, I don't have a problem with the Nantex. It still takes skill and isn't an auto win. Fly bad and you will still lose. Also, I don't subscribe to the mentality of the High Aces....that they should be able to win win win as long as they don't make a mistake. I feel as if Xwing is a game where crazy things happen and crazy things can happen to your High Ace. Sometimes you lose based on things your opponent does, not just on if you make a mistake. Sometimes archetypes have a hard counter. I'm OK with there being one for High Aces. Other list types will beat Nantex.

I think you're misunderstanding some of the complaints.

To be very, very clear, the Nantex is itself an Ace. It's a fragile, high initiative ship that relies on mobility. But the Nantex breaks some of the traditional Ace rules; The Nantex can't really be blocked. That's an incredible advantage for an Ace; Blocking is one of the oldest and best strategies against aces. So the complaint is less, "This new ship kills my Aces," and more "This new Ace is fantastic against other Aces, but 4 ship builds and swarms can't counter it the usual way." Hence the complaints from 4 ship builds and swarm players.

Now, it's possible some of the other eccentricities of the ship will balance it out in time. But I think you're mischaracterizing the complaints about the ship.

6 minutes ago, Squark said:

I think you're misunderstanding some of the complaints.

To be very, very clear, the Nantex is itself an Ace. It's a fragile, high initiative ship that relies on mobility. But the Nantex breaks some of the traditional Ace rules; The Nantex can't really be blocked. That's an incredible advantage for an Ace; Blocking is one of the oldest and best strategies against aces. So the complaint is less, "This new ship kills my Aces," and more "This new Ace is fantastic against other Aces, but 4 ship builds and swarms can't counter it the usual way." Hence the complaints from 4 ship builds and swarm players.

Now, it's possible some of the other eccentricities of the ship will balance it out in time. But I think you're mischaracterizing the complaints about the ship.

Well, one ship is an Ace. Two if you want to count Berwer. Unlike many of the other Ace ships, I do think the lower Inits have a place on the table.

I do see that Sun Fac is an Ace, but I see him more as an anti-ace. As in.. he is perfect to hunt other Aces. He is a hard counter. I do think other lists can beat him, though. Don't fly in formation and make sure you have shots on a wide range of areas. If you can get shots on him you do have a good chance of doing damage. I think @Biophysical 's recent bkog entry on using loose deployments is the way to handle them. I think it's High Aces that suffer the most vs. the Nantex.

44 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Also, I don't subscribe to the mentality of the High Aces....that they should be able to win win win as long as they don't make a mistake.

I guess it depends what you mean by "don't make a mistake". The thing is, landing in range 1 of where an Ensnare-equipped arc is going to be is a pretty serious mistake... but then, since it's only got a 2-dice primary 'off-bore', trying to fight a Nantex at range 1 was probably a mistake on your part anyway.

4 minutes ago, Squark said:

So the complaint is less, "This new ship kills my Aces," and more "This new Ace is fantastic against other Aces, but 4 ship builds and swarms can't counter it the usual way." Hence the complaints from 4 ship builds and swarm players.

A 4-ship build probably can, though. When you're talking about 4 ships in a loose firing line, you're engaging from range 2-3, I'm not convinced he's any tougher than a generic Fang or TIE interceptor, and he's 80+ points. I'm unconvinced he can take a pair of T-65 X-wings pulling a thatch weave.

20 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Sun Fac is...different. Fenn Rau doesn't scare my droids at all, but Sun Fac does. When Rau moves and gets blocked, he's just there to be shot at with no mods from the R2 shots. When Fac moves and gets blocked, he isn't there anymore and one of your ships is gone.

Right...but it depends what proportion are range 2 shots. Because if Sun Fac uses pinpoint tractor array, he may well not be able to point his arc anywhere useful, and dodging arcs and getting a shot with just a straight boost or barrel roll is probably a bigger ask than you'd think (since if you roll away, amongst other ships the ship you collided with becomes ale to shoot you again if you remain in arc) - a lot of the classic arc dodgers either pull double repositioning or something like the Starviper's banked barrel roll

If he does manage to roll away, tractor someone and kill them, he's also got no mods because the tractor token he wanted to use for Gravetic Deflection exploded with the droid. But he's got no mods against the range 1 shots either, whilst Fenn Rau would pretty much just ignore them.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's not scary. But I would observe that for the same price, you need to compare Gravetic Deflection/Ensnare Sun Fac to (for example) a ridiculously lavishly equipped Soontir*; who whilst he can't squirrel away when blocked uusually gets focus + 4 green dice with a reroll without having to resort to actions, and is cheap enough that palpatine playing dice ju-ju is a credible thing to factor in.

Equally, assuming you're a 'droid down' is rather overstating matters. At range 1 against a tractored target, Sun Fac delivers 4 unmodified dice from a turret shot. That's an average of 2 hits, even assuming your single green die blanks out (and with networked calculation, you've almost certainly got access to a calculate token if you want it, so the odds are good you'll dodge one hit. Sun Fac half-pointing a droid when blocked is feasible. Him totalling one is unlikely.

* Yes, I'm aware no-one would take Soontir with Stealth/Shield/Elusive because the 'industry standard' is predator-and-call-it-a-day. But the point stands that it's a more equivalent pilot

9 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Equally, assuming you're a 'droid down' is rather overstating matters. At range 1 against a tractored target, Sun Fac delivers 4 unmodified dice from a turret shot. That's an average of 2 hits, even assuming your single green die blanks out (and with networked calculation, you've almost certainly got access to a calculate token if you want it, so the odds are good you'll dodge one hit. Sun Fac half-pointing a droid when blocked is feasible. Him totalling one is unlikely.

Turret shot at R1 is only 3 dice. It's 2 red, plus 1 for range. 4 dice through bullseye arc at R1.

Also, Nantex does not have Networked Calculations and cannot share a Calc token from Droids. The only way he can get one is from Butterbot.

11 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Turret shot at R1 is only 3 dice. It's 2 red, plus 1 for range. 4 dice through bullseye arc at R1.

Also, Nantex does not have Networked Calculations and cannot share a Calc token from Droids. The only way he can get one is from Butterbot.

With sun against a tractored ship it's 4 dice...

23 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Turret shot at R1 is only 3 dice. It's 2 red, plus 1 for range. 4 dice through bullseye arc at R1.

Also, Nantex does not have Networked Calculations and cannot share a Calc token from Droids. The only way he can get one is from Butterbot.

Sun Fac gets an extra dice against tractored defenders and I believe the bit about networked calc was talking about the vulture having access to it not the Nantex

I feel like I'm trying to tell everyone the Soylent Green is people...screw it, taste it for yourself and see, but don't say you weren't warned...

I played two games with Nantex's last night.

Sun Fac is very expensive and is a glass cannon. But if he makes it to the end game he is very difficult to beat. Almost impossible one on one. However if he gets shot at he goes up in flame quick! Had Ensnare and Lone Wolf on him.
Chertek is may favorite so far. Ensnare should be more points for him probably. I had that and Juke and he did WORK!
To back them up I had Souless Outmaneuver Grievous.

Lost my first game and won the second by a dice roll. They are really good and pretty appropriately costed (for Sun Fac ant Berwer at least). No need to get the pitchforks yet. Just shoot them first!

Isn't it pretty hard-countered by engaging at R2? It can tractor itself into range, but even then it can't ensnare you out of shooting back. Or you can engage from range 3, surely? 3 reds into 4 greens vs 2 reds into 3 greens seems like a nice matchup to me, and there's no way they'll land a R3 bullseye.

Of course, I know there are ships that really want to block or sit at R1, but in some cases, what a ship wants to do doesn't really matter. If you have a mining guild tie and you're flying against trick scum Han, maybe sitting on an asteroid isn't the best idea. If you're flying Guri against Lando with gunner Luke, maybe engaging at R1 isn't the best idea. I'm definitely okay with objective-shifting effects existing; I think it's cool and it makes you rethink the way you play the game, which increases the viability of list diversity.

I also like the idea of something that makes Medium/Large base ships more viable; without Ketsu (which CIS can't even use) you'll have a hard time throwing a Decimator or Party Bus around, and they don't lose much defense from being tractored anyway.

But take it all with a grain of salt; I have yet to see one of these things in person so it's all totally uneducated speculation. It does baffle me that the wording doesn't require fully executing the maneuver, though perhaps they thought that a modless defense would make up for it. 3 naked green dice on a small unshielded target doesn't seem too hard to punch through...

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

3 naked green dice on a small unshielded target doesn't seem too hard to punch through...

You do have to be able to shoot at it first...

16 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

You do have to be able to shoot at it first...

It can only tractor one of you (78 points is 2 ships in most of my lists). Again, if you engage with both ships at R2-3, what's it going to do? Only one reposition and only reposition maybe one of you...

5 DMS Cartel Marauders seem nice against this...

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It can only tractor one of you (78 points is 2 ships in most of my lists). Again, if you engage with both ships at R2-3, what's it going to do? Only one reposition and only reposition maybe one of you...

5 DMS Cartel Marauders seem nice against this...

Sun Fac, Brewer Kett and Chertek can all fit in a list with Ensnare and a sizable bid. I will take 5 Cartel Marauders with that all day.

Sun Fac (54)
Treacherous (2)
Ensnare (24)

Chertek (39)
Treacherous (2)
Ensnare (10)

0-66 (52)
Count Dooku (10)

Total: 193

I like o-66 being sort of a Palp shuttle for the nantex aces. Dooku gives them offense or defense depending on situation, and 0-66 ability triggers off being shot, which he will being the Dooku carrier. He can calculate, get shot at, then could lock to hit harder, or even roll out of other ships arcs, or even range 2 of one of your aces to then use Dooku. Treacherous seems like a decent upgrade for ships that like range 1, and can control where ships lineup thanks to tractorbeam and can use enemy ships as shields. I have yet to get table time with these new guys though.

I really do think that the route FFG will go with this ship is to simply errata the Pinpoint Tractor Array to require the ship to complete a maneuver. Thus opening it up to being blocked. I really don’t see anything else specifically wrong with it, except Entangle maybe needing a few more points tacked on.

@ClassicalMoser They have a 5 straight boost and its hard to get ALL your ships at range 2 of them if a good player is flying the Nantex. The lunge is huge.

5 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

@ClassicalMoser They have a 5 straight boost and its hard to get ALL your ships at range 2 of them if a good player is flying the Nantex. The lunge is huge.

They can also 5 straight boost through a gas cloud because there is no god.

I love the quirky design of this ship, but I give it only a few months until only the die-hards are still flying this ship. It is very high skill level, high risk ship. Those don't tend to stick around in the meta for long and are generally only seen during casual play. Bumping means you're throwing completely un-modded dice (and if you're anything like me, that means I will completely miss a Decimator at range 1 with Sun Fac), but getting that tractor beam off is very satisfying.