If you wanna keep it *cheap, a Lothal Rebel with a dorsal or ion turret and Veteran Turret Gunner is 79 to 81 pts, depending on loadout. And gives a titanic double tapping 14 hit points that throws a lot of dice.
But then again for 84 pts you can get two Dorsel Turret Y-Wings with Veteran Tail Gunners.
3 hours ago, wurms said:VCX is a ship that is made in listbuilding, not actual flying the ship. Its either going to not be competitive or else will be everywhere and OP and we will all complain about it. It wont take much skill flying the ship as it has no repositioning, and it if its competitive means it has 1 or two passive mods, so people will only need to decide on like two actions, reinforce or lock. It will be an autopilot ship when it is competitive which will open the netlister floodgates.
Agreed. Which is why they should give it something that allows you to actually fly the ship.
6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:Okay. Wow it is a /facepalm and a half that FFG EU OP has as hard a time as they do wrapping their head around such a basic game concept like continuous effects (any effect that does not state a specific timing).
Is it a translation detail?
1) the Marshall at most of the big events in Europe is Vince Kingston. He's not an actual employee of FFG, and final rulings have little to do with the staff of FFG OP - they run and organise events across multiple games and are not necessarily experts at playing any. So, no translation issue with him, but the team of judges at any event can make different rulings.
2) German System Open declared that Cova's ability still worked on her 1-hards even with R4. (No mention of Hera and Nien). Every other large and small event I know of ruled that R4 stops Cova's ability. I don't know which way Euros ruled though.
So, one event (probably) made a problem for Hera. Not a whole continent. Very very unlikely that there will be any sort of nerf for her.
1 hour ago, Gilarius said:1) the Marshall at most of the big events in Europe is Vince Kingston. He's not an actual employee of FFG, and final rulings have little to do with the staff of FFG OP - they run and organise events across multiple games and are not necessarily experts at playing any. So, no translation issue with him, but the team of judges at any event can make different rulings.
2) German System Open declared that Cova's ability still worked on her 1-hards even with R4. (No mention of Hera and Nien). Every other large and small event I know of ruled that R4 stops Cova's ability. I don't know which way Euros ruled though.
So, one event (probably) made a problem for Hera. Not a whole continent. Very very unlikely that there will be any sort of nerf for her.
This is what I am getting at. I am in Australia, if I play Hera and Nien helps her, why should I fly to Europe to play, because I have nothing else to spend my money on in fantasy land, and all of a sudden she doesnt work with Nien. My whole list synergy changes because some dude or dudette says yes or no? Seems more than arbitrary. FFG needs to release something straight away in these instances and say yes she works, no she doesn't work. I dont care where the goal posts are, I just dont want them moved depending on country.
I like intimidate/Zeb/Saw on Hera. Passive sensors is decent too ... but being able to change your dial to force a bump for a 5 die primary into a -1 green ship is gravy.
Any VCX with Saw Crew + Passive sensors ( and no other upgrades ) is very much about actually flying the ship. Which is why people think its bad I guess.
From the games I have played the VCX is less about list building and more about how good you are at dials, and organizing initial engages.
You can keep that 4 dice attack involved but it requires setting up lanes, having threats from other angles with Luke or w/e else is nearby ( braylen ).
Its a 4 dice primary with a K-Turn, excellent dial, and a mountain of HP + re-enforce. Along with Gas Clouds to open up more lanes.
You dont need repositions or even turrets to get shots on target reliably. You also dont need more than 2-4 shots per game to get near full value from the ship.
Its a massive distraction that can drag your entire list with it to the end game if its targeted first.
The biggest problem with the ship is that players have a deep attachment to what it was in 1.0 ( a single ship powerhouse 360 turret ).
In 2.0 it can be that but its most effective as Rebel Tavson with a hugely effective K-Turn, higher init, some incredible pilot abilities, and always on mods.
Keep the # of upgrades light and the VCX shines as a early/mid game bruiser.
Edited by Boom Owl6 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:This is what I am getting at. I am in Australia, if I play Hera and Nien helps her, why should I fly to Europe to play, because I have nothing else to spend my money on in fantasy land, and all of a sudden she doesnt work with Nien. My whole list synergy changes because some dude or dudette says yes or no? Seems more than arbitrary. FFG needs to release something straight away in these instances and say yes she works, no she doesn't work. I dont care where the goal posts are, I just dont want them moved depending on country.
One event in one country has ruled against it working. Otherwise, this thread is the only place I've seen where anyone has seriously suggested any nerf might be incoming.
Don't worry about it.
1 minute ago, Gilarius said:One event in one country has ruled against it working. Otherwise, this thread is the only place I've seen where anyone has seriously suggested any nerf might be incoming.
Don't worry about it.
Not worried at all, very rarely play Rebels. But there is nothing to say that this wont happen again in the future with some other interaction, that could affect tournaments.
FFG should be going all Sauron style, one rule to bind them all kind of thing. One country, ten countries. Doesnt matter, should be 0 countries.
25 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:
Keep the # of upgrades light and the VCX shines as a early/mid game bruiser.
Is there any mathematical or tournament evidence that this is true? Because I’ve been looking for a year now. You just keep saying it over and over, but we have mountains of tourney data showing it ain’t true.
Everyone who wants ~85 points of bruiser has a dozen better options. And they’re not a little bit better. They are substantially better.
Edited by TasteTheRainbowThis all reminds me of a list I'd been pondering:
Considering that it's all Hyperspace-Legal now, I might have to give it a shot.
Premise: Lothal Rebel will use an action on Passive Sensors, preventing it from being coordinated (stress alone wouldn't work, since stressed ships can be coordinated, they just usually can't do anything with it). Hera will fail her Comms Shuttle coordinate from the docked AP-5, and will Focus from Composure. Then, she can take a Lock or Reinforce with Advanced Sensors, then do her movement tricks. Two double-mod 4-dice ships is kind of scary, but as @Boom Owl says, it'll all be about how effectively I can set up an approach.
Do the opening well, and this list can slap some stuff around. When I was flying a lot of double-Lothal (and Ezra with R3-A2 in the sheathipede) in the end of 1e, Courier Droids were *IMMENSE.* Placing them on the board them at PS 8 instead of PS 3 meant it was a lot easier to get a good location and a good approach.
unfortunately the VCX is going to pay for the sins of 1.0. I think it needs to be able to reinforce for free - aka full throttle - do a three move and get a free reinforce.
10 Hull and 6 Shields would make it more competitive.
14 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:10 Hull and 6 Shields would make it more competitive.
To be sure.
But it's worth noting that a 1e VCX with an Evade token died faster than a 2e VCX with a Reinforce, even after losing the 2 shields.
However, it's also worth noting that the Decimator got Reinforce added without losing any of it's hull or shields.
11 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:I think part of the problem is that in order to make the Ghost a support ship you have to sink so many points that you don’t have much to support once you’re done.
I agree with this. I do not want to go back to the TLT Ghost days (was that a Ghost problem or a TLT problem though?) but even for casual games I don't feel like I can put this thing on the table. It doesn't cut it as the be all end all of your list but you can't field enough stuff to go with it. As soon as you put the Sheathipede on there you don't have anything to co-ordinate. A pair of X-wings? Jake and a Phoenix Squad Pilot?
It also seems like the ship is supposed to have shenanigans with stress but they had to nerf that from the outset. Hera pilot seems like she'd be a lot better with Hera crew's ability. Then you have Kanan, Ezra gunner, Chopper, and a turret and you'd have something for the 105-ish points. I guess that would have just been broken though. Especially, since it seems Ezra crew doesn't even come in the re-release Ghost.
It is like the idea was that Ghost and Shuttle with all the Rebels crew was meant to be an entire list but the thing would have been broken as all get out. So they did away with that idea and now it isn't anything. The quick-builds for Ghost and shuttle don't even have the entire crew represented. They couldn't make the ideas and synergies they had for the Ghost and crew good without their being broken.
54 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:unfortunately the VCX is going to pay for the sins of 1.0. I think it needs to be able to reinforce for free - aka full throttle - do a three move and get a free reinforce.
I’ve tested something like this. They’re still not good, but they are less bad. I played it for 5 or so games with a white linked reinforce from a focus or lock.
The main drawback with a free reinforce option is that it’s not very dynamic. Not much room for the player.
3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:Any VCX with Saw Crew + Passive sensors ( and no other upgrades ) is very much about actually flying the ship. Which is why people think its bad I guess.
From the games I have played the VCX is less about list building and more about how good you are at dials, and organizing initial engages.
You can keep that 4 dice attack involved but it requires setting up lanes, having threats from other angles with Luke or w/e else is nearby ( braylen ).
Its a 4 dice primary with a K-Turn, excellent dial, and a mountain of HP + re-enforce. Along with Gas Clouds to open up more lanes.
You dont need repositions or even turrets to get shots on target reliably. You also dont need more than 2-4 shots per game to get near full value from the ship.
Its a massive distraction that can drag your entire list with it to the end game if its targeted first.
The biggest problem with the ship is that players have a deep attachment to what it was in 1.0 ( a single ship powerhouse 360 turret ).
In 2.0 it can be that but its most effective as Rebel Tavson with a hugely effective K-Turn, higher init, some incredible pilot abilities, and always on mods.
Keep the # of upgrades light and the VCX shines as a early/mid game bruiser.
Nailed it spot-on. I think there’s a lot of untapped potential here.
That said, strictly based on past performance I think cutting a few points off (like 2-4, no more) would make people more inclined to experiment with it and find what does and doesn’t work. After that it’s likely some pilots will need to go back up (Hera) and some down more (Kansan, Chopper).
I expect it to play out like the Decimator has so far: RAC is actually a bit above average now, though the other two are still well below.
Edited by ClassicalMoser34 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:I’ve tested something like this. They’re still not good, but they are less bad. I played it for 5 or so games with a white linked reinforce from a focus or lock.
The main drawback with a free reinforce option is that it’s not very dynamic. Not much room for the player.
Seriously, how much of buff are you begging for?
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:To be sure.
But it's worth noting that a 1e VCX with an Evade token died faster than a 2e VCX with a Reinforce, even after losing the 2 shields.
However, it's also worth noting that the Decimator got Reinforce added without losing any of it's hull or shields.
It’s also worth noting that Shield Upgrade is a bargain-price of 3pts on anything with 0 Agility. I’m not saying you should staple it to the Ghost, but I’m saying poster-puttying them together in case points change wouldn’t be a bad idea.
38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Seriously, how much of buff are you begging for?
They put Maul and Hate in the re-release expansion pack. For Hyperspace that is a minimum of 57 points to use those upgrades with the stuff that comes in the expansion (Ezra shuttle, Maul, Hate.) If you put Hate where it makes a bit more sense you're looking at 149 for Kanan, Ezra shuttle, titles, Maul, Hate on Kanan. Is Kanan with three force with an option for a 2nd back a turn that good? Put Hera crew so you can do Reds with the stress from Maul and go to 153.
For Extended you could do this:
VCX-100 Light Freighter - •Kanan Jarrus - 122
•Kanan Jarrus -
Spectre-1
(84)
Dorsal Turret (3)
•Maul (12)
•Ezra Bridger (14)
Hate (9)
Total: 122/200
View in the X-Wing Squad Builder
But you don't get Ezra gunner in the re-release expansion pack. They've gotten something wrong with the VCX.
Edited by Frimmel37 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Seriously, how much of buff are you begging for?
That’s a pretty decent one close to the right level, but it’s pretty boring is my point.
49 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:Nailed it spot-on. I think there’s a lot of untapped potential here.
In a whole year of play there’s some combo we just haven’t noticed yet?
Like not one person? For a whole ship? When has this happened even in 1.0?
Edited by TasteTheRainbow1 hour ago, Frimmel said:I agree with this. I do not want to go back to the TLT Ghost days (was that a Ghost problem or a TLT problem though?) but even for casual games I don't feel like I can put this thing on the table. It doesn't cut it as the be all end all of your list but you can't field enough stuff to go with it. As soon as you put the Sheathipede on there you don't have anything to co-ordinate. A pair of X-wings? Jake and a Phoenix Squad Pilot?
It also seems like the ship is supposed to have shenanigans with stress but they had to nerf that from the outset. Hera pilot seems like she'd be a lot better with Hera crew's ability. Then you have Kanan, Ezra gunner, Chopper, and a turret and you'd have something for the 105-ish points. I guess that would have just been broken though. Especially, since it seems Ezra crew doesn't even come in the re-release Ghost.
It is like the idea was that Ghost and Shuttle with all the Rebels crew was meant to be an entire list but the thing would have been broken as all get out. So they did away with that idea and now it isn't anything. The quick-builds for Ghost and shuttle don't even have the entire crew represented. They couldn't make the ideas and synergies they had for the Ghost and crew good without their being broken.
I personally found the autoblaster combo more degenerate (dealt 4 auto damage because your ship simply exists at a range 1 turret bubble ), but I agree.
Kanan - put Sense, Cassian, and Leia on him. fill rest of squad to taste
5 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:I personally found the autoblaster combo more degenerate (dealt 4 auto damage because your ship simply exists at a range 1 turret bubble ), but I agree.
Agreed. In v1 it was Autoblasters and Accuracy Corrector that was truly awful to play against, where the Ghost was concerned. TLT was more of a problem from 4 Y-Wings which may, or may not, had been set up for forward-only meatgrinder mode.