Can this list work? Thoughts. I know it could be fragile especially the Nantex

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Berwer Kret - 61
•Berwer Kret - Hive Guard Captain (40)
Ensnare (16)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Sun Fac - 83
•Sun Fac - Archduke’s Enforcer (54)
Ensnare (24)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Belbullab-22 Starfighter - •General Grievous - 54
•General Grievous - Ambitious Cyborg (44)
Impervium Plating (4)
• Soulless One (6)

Total: 198/200

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I'd ditch Soulless One for Outmaneuver. Other than that, I definitely think it has great potential as aces - risky, as aces are, but high potential

1 minute ago, Greebwahn said:

I'd ditch Soulless One for Outmaneuver. Other than that, I definitely think it has great potential as aces - risky, as aces are, but high potential

Don’t you want the title all the time? I do like the thought of outmaneuver though

I wouldnt play Sun without a good bid. No way to catch an ace that moves after.

Looking at the same archetype

25 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

Can this list work? Thoughts. I know it could be fragile especially the Nantex

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Berwer Kret - 61
•Berwer Kret - Hive Guard Captain (40)
Ensnare (16)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Sun Fac - 83
•Sun Fac - Archduke’s Enforcer (54)
Ensnare (24)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Belbullab-22 Starfighter - •General Grievous - 54
•General Grievous - Ambitious Cyborg (44)
Impervium Plating (4)
• Soulless One (6)

Total: 198/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Looks interesting as a Separatist Aces list. I usually equip the title but there have been times when I don't. It's a great defensive option. However, I'd probably drop a Hull Upgrade and the Outmaneuver on it and go with a 199-point list. I haven't used Impervium enough to test its value.

3 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

Looks interesting as a Separatist Aces list. I usually equip the title but there have been times when I don't. It's a great defensive option. However, I'd probably drop a Hull Upgrade and the Outmaneuver on it and go with a 199-point list. I haven't used Impervium enough to test its value.

So how does it fly being more ace-y? I was thinking more of a brawler with the two aces

I'd seriously consider Chertek instead of Berwer Kret. Yes, Initiative 5 versus Initiative 4, but you're already having to learn to fly an Initiative 4 'ace' if you field Grievous. Chertek is the same initiative as him, which means you can chop and change activation and engagement order if it's valuable to do so.

More to the point, you save 7 points with the same loadout, and Chertek has a pilot ability which actually matters - if you successfully ensnare a target, he gets offensive rerolls a-go-go, which a Nantex normally struggles for.

That saves enough points to shell out for an elite upgrade for Grievous if you want. Since he's the 'tough' one, despite his ability he's quite likely to be the one 'going up the centre' - Treacherous might be a nice option as it can make it hard for an enemy squad to concentrate fire on you - but you also have enough points for Outmanoeuvre instead. That said, if either of the Nantex succeed in tractoring a target it's already at -1 defence die; against agility 1 targets Outmanoeuvre will therefore do nothing and even against better agility you get rapidly diminishing returns. Treacherous is nice and cheap and still leaves you an increased bid to support Sun Fac (or to support Chertek and Grievous against enemy Initiative 4 pilots).

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd seriously consider Chertek instead of Berwer Kret. Yes, Initiative 5 versus Initiative 4, but you're already having to learn to fly an Initiative 4 'ace' if you field Grievous. Chertek is the same initiative as him, which means you can chop and change activation and engagement order if it's valuable to do so.

More to the point, you save 7 points with the same loadout, and Chertek has a pilot ability which actually matters - if you successfully ensnare a target, he gets offensive rerolls a-go-go, which a Nantex normally struggles for.

That saves enough points to shell out for an elite upgrade for Grievous if you want. Since he's the 'tough' one, despite his ability he's quite likely to be the one 'going up the centre' - Treacherous might be a nice option as it can make it hard for an enemy squad to concentrate fire on you - but you also have enough points for Outmanoeuvre instead. That said, if either of the Nantex succeed in tractoring a target it's already at -1 defence die; against agility 1 targets Outmanoeuvre will therefore do nothing and even against better agility you get rapidly diminishing returns. Treacherous is nice and cheap and still leaves you an increased bid to support Sun Fac (or to support Chertek and Grievous against enemy Initiative 4 pilots).

Great analysis. Thank you for the suggestions. I’ll definitely look into all those suggestions. I never considered those changes initially I was purely looking at the initiative for the Nantex in that regards. And the pilot ability is better and more useful for Chertek, and saving points.

As for Grievous any way I can build him better, the more effectively the list may become. Thank you for the response

This does look more flexible. Add has a decent bid

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Sun Fac - 83
•Sun Fac - Archduke’s Enforcer (54)
Ensnare (24)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Belbullab-22 Starfighter - •General Grievous - 56
•General Grievous - Ambitious Cyborg (44)
Treacherous (2)
Impervium Plating (4)
• Soulless One (6)

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Chertek - 54
•Chertek - Opportunistic Ace (39)
Ensnare (10)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Total: 193/200

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5 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

Great analysis. Thank you for the suggestions. I’ll definitely look into all those suggestions. I never considered those changes initially I was purely looking at the initiative for the Nantex in that regards. And the pilot ability is better and more useful for Chertek, and saving points.

As for Grievous any way I can build him better, the more effectively the list may become. Thank you for the response

This does look more flexible. Add has a decent bid

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Sun Fac - 83
•Sun Fac - Archduke’s Enforcer (54)
Ensnare (24)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Belbullab-22 Starfighter - •General Grievous - 56
•General Grievous - Ambitious Cyborg (44)
Treacherous (2)
Impervium Plating (4)
• Soulless One (6)

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Chertek - 54
•Chertek - Opportunistic Ace (39)
Ensnare (10)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Total: 193/200

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Grievous is actually the least threatening ship here and should be golden to flank and get his ability proc'in

14 minutes ago, wurms said:

Grievous is actually the least threatening ship here and should be golden to flank and get his ability proc'in

That’s exactly how I want to fly him. As the decoy or lost ship where he is ignored thus allowing him to react to the other players actions towards the 2 Nantex or Grievous.

Go after Grevious, and let the 2 Nantex flank/attack

or

Go after the two Nantex, let Grievous flank.

Play two games tonight won both as both went to time.

Game 1: Lost Chertek, and Grievous was halved.

I used Grievous as a flanker/mini brawler while Chertek and Sun Fac both tried to maneuver into position.

Game 2: Chertek, Grievous and Sun Fac were all halved. I won this game by 1 point. The last round Sun Fac was able to get to range 1 and rolled 2 critical hits, focus, focus blank to not only get enough points to win but completely one shot a CLT Obi-Wan.

1. Chertek rerolls are no joke, having Sun Fac is fun with Ensnare.

2. I made sure I tandem my opponents ships with the Nantex. Tractoring them into the same arc a couple times.

3. Neither of my opponents cared about Grievous until Grievous both games removed the first ship, imprevium plating was the MVP. I think this will change next league night.

4. At 83 points Sun Fac is okay, he’s fragile but extremely fun to fly. I had more fun flying the Nantex then my normal Delta lists.

More gameplay with this list for sure, I definitely need to get better flying it.

On 9/12/2019 at 3:32 PM, Muppetfluffer said:

I wouldnt play Sun without a good bid. No way to catch an ace that moves after.

Looking at the same archetype

Sun does not give a fac about a bid.

On 9/13/2019 at 8:29 AM, Cgriffith said:

Great analysis. Thank you for the suggestions. I’ll definitely look into all those suggestions. I never considered those changes initially I was purely looking at the initiative for the Nantex in that regards. And the pilot ability is better and more useful for Chertek, and saving points.

As for Grievous any way I can build him better, the more effectively the list may become. Thank you for the response

This does look more flexible. Add has a decent bid

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Sun Fac - 83
•Sun Fac - Archduke’s Enforcer (54)
Ensnare (24)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Belbullab-22 Starfighter - •General Grievous - 56
•General Grievous - Ambitious Cyborg (44)
Treacherous (2)
Impervium Plating (4)
• Soulless One (6)

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Chertek - 54
•Chertek - Opportunistic Ace (39)
Ensnare (10)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Total: 193/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

I'm planning on running this with one change. I'm replacing Treacherous with Outmaneuver on Grievous. The reason is Treacherous is a waste in an Aces squad as there's not enough bodies to make it work more than once effectively. Treacherous is a better fit on a Vulture/Hyena swarm list. In my list Outmaneuver is a better fit on Grievous due to his ship's ability. I know it only give me a 3 point bid but I'm ok with that.

5 hours ago, T70 Driver said:

I'm planning on running this with one change. I'm replacing Treacherous with Outmaneuver on Grievous. The reason is Treacherous is a waste in an Aces squad as there's not enough bodies to make it work more than once effectively. Treacherous is a better fit on a Vulture/Hyena swarm list. In my list Outmaneuver is a better fit on Grievous due to his ship's ability. I know it only give me a 3 point bid but I'm ok with that.

I understand that, Outmaneuver is something I thought about as well but I chose Treacherous because the initiative is absolutely necessary with Sun Fac, if Deltas (Vader/Fel, Wedge with Torps etc.) get to more after you Sun Fac is very unhappy. Let me know how it works. My Treacherous proc’d twice, once in each game. I’m okay with that knowing in neither game was I worried what position Sun Fac ended up in, I got to decide.

8 hours ago, Blademaster72 said:

Sun does not give a fac about a bid.

Explain to me how you catch Soontir or Anakin moving after Fuc, when Ensnare triggers after all moved.

Im really curious about what i missed

16 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

My Treacherous proc’d twice, once in each game.

Off friendlies or of enemy ships? The ability to use it to use enemy numbers against them is one reason I like the ability in theory.

16 hours ago, Muppetfluffer said:

Explain to me how you catch Soontir or Anakin moving after Fuc, when Ensnare triggers after all moved.

When you've got two ensnare arcs to dodge, you can create a quite sizeable zone where no reposition will let you avoid it. If it was 1v1 I'd care a lot more, but remember in this squad you've got Chertek flying as Sun's wingbug.

Also remember it works at range 0 -1; if you block someone moving after you, you can still ensnare them, roll them off you so they're now a legal target, and they wont get their standard action or Fine-Tuned Controls. It's not as easy as it would be with Ketsu Onyo, because you only have a small base to work with, but the Nantex is a much more manoeuvrable ship given it's dial plus repositioning.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

When you've got two ensnare arcs

I ensnare my outmanover griveous and nantexes for better positioning etc.

So I get what you are saying, but its rather easy to pick of Chertek first with your 5-6 aces.

In a list with 2 nantexes and a couple of droids for blocking, it makes more sense to me to not have a bid though 😃

In all honest, if I ran this squad, I'd be taking Treacherous anyway; I'm not convinced of the value of Outmanoeuvre in a squad with tractor tokens a-go-go which should already therefore be firing on ships with reduced agility (it's the same reason I'd take Predator not Crack Shot if I wanted a bullseye-arc talent in an Ensnare swarm).

I'd therefore end up with a better initiative bid more by default than out of any desire.

Also, as an aside; don't underestimate how hard a Gravetic Deflection Nantex can be to swat when it has a wingbug. Two rerolled green dice with a focus token is surprisingly tough (or three dice with one reroll if Chertek isn't confident enough to tractor himself), and that fourth hit point means it's almost impossible to one-shot them, even with big guns.

On 9/12/2019 at 8:09 PM, Cgriffith said:

So how does it fly being more ace-y? I was thinking more of a brawler with the two aces

Haven't flown it as such, not for a long time. My Belbullab of choice since I got into Separatist has been either Wat with some Kraken-enhanced droids or Feethan Ottraw as a Tac Relay carrier. I'm going to be trying Aces for Separatists next time I play them, I think, so I'll let you know.

Both times off my opponents ships. In one round which Sun Fac gained range 1 against (Delta - Anakin) needless to say it was a very, unhappy dead Anakin at the end.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

In all honest, if I ran this squad, I'd be taking Treacherous anyway; I'm not convinced of the value of Outmanoeuvre in a squad with tractor tokens a-go-go which should already therefore be firing on ships with reduced agility (it's the same reason I'd take Predator not Crack Shot if I wanted a bullseye-arc talent in an Ensnare swarm).

I'd therefore end up with a better initiative bid more by default than out of any desire.

Also, as an aside; don't underestimate how hard a Gravetic Deflection Nantex can be to swat when it has a wingbug. Two rerolled green dice with a focus token is surprisingly tough (or three dice with one reroll if Chertek isn't confident enough to tractor himself), and that fourth hit point means it's almost impossible to one-shot them, even with big guns.

After now running it 3 times, I’ll be running Treacherous all the time, with a tractor squad the reposition ability to force opponents shots into positions that benefit all your ships is easier to accomplish. I cannot stress enough how much having the initiative helped.

It forced the Deltas in both matchups to use extra force, try to outguess my Nantex and try to stay away from positions that either put them into bullseye arcs or compromising close to the asteroids that were on the map. Gravetic Deflection is worth the points rerolls game green dice is so good.

On 9/12/2019 at 3:19 PM, Cgriffith said:

Don’t you want the title all the time? I do like the thought of outmaneuver though

Personally, Title > Outmaneuver by a Parsec. Crack Shot is enough for Grievous as a Talent, even if Outmaneuver aligns well.

Treacherous makes sense, though. If you're able to have obstructed shots, it's incredibly potent for the cost. Tractors can help that happen. I've never gotten anything out of Treacherous in the few games I've played with it, but it's the kind of thing I can see working in some lists more than others, since it's a very geometrically-based talent, rather than a probability-based one.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Personally, Title > Outmaneuver by a Parsec. Crack Shot is enough for Grievous as a Talent, even if Outmaneuver aligns well.

Treacherous makes sense, though. If you're able to have obstructed shots, it's incredibly potent for the cost. Tractors can help that happen. I've never gotten anything out of Treacherous in the few games I've played with it, but it's the kind of thing I can see working in some lists more than others, since it's a very geometrically-based talent, rather than a probability-based one.

I’m only running the title, and Treacherous currently I’m trying to play the odds with initiative and probability of the sum of all parts Nantex ability, Gravitic Deflection etc.; The synergy between the ships with repositioning and rerolls, especially those green dice is amazing. (3-0 in limited table play)

Treacherous is also great, even without ensnare, when fighting a swarm; it's almost impossible not to have someone obstruct someone else's shot, and the fact that it's an auto-cancelled result is huge, even without the strain token on an enemy. Plus, swarmier opponents (hopefully) means kills happening all the time, which means you get the charge back much more often.