2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I do not understand what this thread is asking nor what this thread concluded.

If I have only a primary turret and Snap Shot, and my turret is pointed to the sides, can I use Snap Shot in the engagement phase against a target wholly within my V, at range 2 (or Foresight against a target in my bullseye generally, as a free eyeball mod can be ueful)?

Yes.

12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If I have only a primary turret and Snap Shot, and my turret is pointed to the sides, can I use Snap Shot in the engagement phase against a target wholly within my V, at range 2 (or Foresight against a target in my bullseye generally, as a free eyeball mod can be ueful)?

Yes.

How can this be used in the engagement phase? Do ships execute maneuvers in the engagement phase? How is the execute a maneuver requirement bypassed?

2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

How can this be used in the engagement phase? Do ships execute maneuvers in the engagement phase? How is the execute a maneuver requirement bypassed?

You'll need to go back over the first page of this post. It was addressed earlier.

3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

You'll need to go back over the first page of this post. It was addressed earlier.

I did not understand a darned thing on the front page. That you can not run it down for me suggests that you also do not understand it. You got the answer you wanted and so you "understand."

How can this weapon be used at any time other than "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver?" Spell it out for me.

(Please note that I am deliberately not addressing that this can be used on anything not in the front arc of the ship. I'm willing to let that be neither here nor there for the time being.)

Please stick to the part where you can do this in the engagement phase. Please explain it to me. Spell it out. Show your work. I don't understand at all. (Although I now much better understand the motivation for FFG to blow up the rulebook like they just did.)

How can this be used during the engagement phase?

10 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

How can this be used during the engagement phase?

Step two of the attack sequence states: " Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons."

A special weapon is defined as, "Special weapons appear as "Attack:" headers in card text. They provide additional types of attacks other than a ship's primary weapon(s)."

Since Snap Shot has an "Attack:" header in its card text, it can be used as a Special Weapon during a ship's attack.

14 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I did not understand a darned thing on the front page. That you can not run it down for me suggests that you also do not understand it. You got the answer you wanted and so you "understand."

How can this weapon be used at any time other than "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver?" Spell it out for me.

(Please note that I am deliberately not addressing that this can be used on anything not in the front arc of the ship. I'm willing to let that be neither here nor there for the time being.)

Please stick to the part where you can do this in the engagement phase. Please explain it to me. Spell it out. Show your work. I don't understand at all. (Although I now much better understand the motivation for FFG to blow up the rulebook like they just did.)

How can this be used during the engagement phase?

Last sentence of the upgrade. " Attack: Your dice cannot be modified."

From Attack (page 4 of the Rules Reference): Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the
attacker’s primary or special weapons.

From Special Weapon (page 18 of the Rules Reference): "Special weapons appear as “ Attack: ” headers in card text. They provide
additional types of attacks other than a ship’s primary weapon(s)."

That help?

2 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Step two of the attack sequence states: " Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons."

A special weapon is defined as, "Special weapons appear as "Attack:" headers in card text. They provide additional types of attacks other than a ship's primary weapon(s)."

Since Snap Shot has an "Attack:" header in its card text, it can be used as a Special Weapon during a ship's attack.

Ninja...

That helps me point out how wrong all of you are.

Aren't you following just the parts of "Special Weapons" that you like? You've left a lot out of that haven't you?

Quote

SPECIAL WEAPON

Special weapons appear as “Attack:” headers in card text. They provide additional types of attacks other than a ship’s primary weapon(s).

Special weapons have a combination of arc requirements, range requirements, attack value, and possibly other requirements. The arc icon indicates where the target needs to be in order to use this attack. The range requirement indicates the span of legal attack ranges. The red attack value is used to determine the number of attack dice to roll during the Roll Attack Dice step. For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in order to perform that attack

How is "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver" applicable in the engagement phase. How isn't that a special requirement that must be met? You're ignoring the special requirement if you say this can be done in the engagement phase.

You're also clearly ignoring the arc restriction.

1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

That helps me point out how wrong all of you are.

Aren't you following just the parts of "Special Weapons" that you like? You've left a lot out of that haven't you?

How is "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver" applicable in the engagement phase. How isn't that a special requirement that must be met? You're ignoring the special requirement if you say this can be done in the engagement phase.

You're also clearly ignoring the arc restriction.

... Look at the right hand side of the upgrade. The arc is clearly printed there.

Snap Shot is a Special Weapon that requires the target be in the range 2 band (the white 2) of the front arc (symbol used next to the firepower value) and does not grant range based bonus dice (the ordinance symbol under the front arc symbol). It also has an additional application as a bonus attack during the Activation Phase. It does not specify that it can only be used as a bonus attack.

I understand fully what you're arguing now. I think it is wrong on its face. "After an enemy executes a maneuver" isn't an "additional application" it is a possibly other requirement that can not be met during the activation phase. Compare Snap Shot and Foresight to Proton Torpdeoes.

No "possibly other requirements." A "special requirement" in target lock but not like Snap Shot's "possibly other requirements" of needing a ship that has met a trigger. That trigger and thus those "possibly other requirements" can not be met in the engagement phase.

Separate paragraphs indicate independent statements (unless they reference other paragraphs, typically with "If you do...."). Instead of Proton Torpedoes, compare with Energy-Shell Charges or Admiral Sloane:

Admiral Sloane is especially informative, because it is impossible for a friendly ship to both defend and attack at the same time. Other cards with a similar set up include Agent Kallus, Discord Missiles, Grappling Struts, Chancellor Palpatine, C-3PO (Crew/Republic), Stealth Device, Moldy Crow and tons more. It's a common FFG writing style.

40 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I understand fully what you're arguing now. I think it is wrong on its face. "After an enemy executes a maneuver" isn't an "additional application" it is a possibly other requirement that can not be met during the activation phase. Compare Snap Shot and Foresight to Proton Torpdeoes.

No "possibly other requirements." A "special requirement" in target lock but not like Snap Shot's "possibly other requirements" of needing a ship that has met a trigger. That trigger and thus those "possibly other requirements" can not be met in the engagement phase.

I mean the lock requirement is an other requirement.

Doesn’t it matter that the actual card is printed as an elite talent and not a torpedo, missile, laser canon, or turret? It is a bonus attack.

The attack header just says that this talent is used as an attack, not for defending (or something else).

Im with Frimmel on this one.

Just now, DarthDarxide said:

Doesn’t it matter that the actual card is printed as an elite talent and not a torpedo, missile, laser canon, or turret? It is a bonus attack.

The attack header just says that this talent is used as an attack, not for defending (or something else).

Im with Frimmel on this one.

Nope. Special weapons are special weapons.

And elite talents are elite talents

Just now, DarthDarxide said:

And elite talents are elite talents

I didn't say otherwise. Special weapons are defined by the attack header. No more, no less. What slot they use is immaterial.

Says you 😝

I mean me and the rules reference.

11 minutes ago, DarthDarxide said:

Doesn’t it matter that the actual card is printed as an elite talent and not a torpedo, missile, laser canon, or turret? It is a bonus attack.

Han Solo is a Gunner and allows a Bonus Attack. Corran Horn is a Pilot and allows a Bonus Attack. Cluster Missiles is a missile and allows a Bonus Attack. A Talent providing a Bonus Attack is no different. And besides, the rules reference is explicit that "Special weapons appear as “Attack:” headers in card text" and provides no restrictions as to card type.

I'm not saying Foresight and Snapshot aren't a special weapon. I'm saying you have to meet the trigger. If you meet the trigger and perform the attack that is your one bonus attack for the turn.

You guys are saying since it says " ATTACK:" anything before that doesn't matter and you can take it or leave it as convenient. It wouldn't matter much as if you wanted to do this instead of your primary I'm probably going to look at you like you're stupid and go "sure" except... there is the case of the RZ-2 that I now understand. And there is the future where the part after attack, the arc, the dice, the range might not be so much a better looking choice for the defender than Snap Shot over a primary.

This very much matters for that A-wing chassis. You guys want to steal an attack with this for a ship that might be missing it's attack because of an incorrectly positioned turret. So whether or not you can just ignore an entire paragraph of text very much matters. The special weapons rules clearly state that there are possibly other requirements and places no limitations on those.

Is there another special weapon that has text before the ATTACK: header besides Foresight and Snap Shot?

I'm saying that the trigger is not a requirement it's an option. It doesn't stop you using the attack whenever you can attack, any more than equipping Han gunner means you can't shoot any other way.

"Rules as written" I agree that the paragraph about maneuvers looks more like a trigger which allows you to perform a bonus attack, not a requirement for the attack in general. The possibility of using it as a special attack during engagement could have been avoided with text like "You can only perform this attack as a bonus attack", "You may perform this attack only after an enemy ship executes a maneuver" , or by using the "Bonus attack" header, as used on Point-Defense Battery from the upcoming epic expansion (EDIT: In conjunction with another restriction? Looking again at PDB I think just changing the header Snap Shot might actually allow you to fire it as well as a normal attack during engagement)

It is a bit silly that it allows some ships to fire in a direction their guns aren't pointed, but that doesn't really make sense when it's used as a bonus attack either.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point it is errata'd to have the "Bonus attack:" header (EDIT: and/or some other restriction) instead of just "Attack:", as I don't think using it as an attack during engagement was intended. Possibly also to add a requirement that the target be in your primary arc as that would make more sense within the fiction of the game.

Also..

Quote

A few special weapons provide a bonus attack using the same weapon . While performing this type of bonus attack, the same arc requirements, range requirements, and cost requirements are followed unless stated otherwise.

So ask yourself, Same as what? If snap shots trigger activates a bonus attack, which attack is it referring to when it says "this attack"? It can really only mean the attack of the special weapon on snap shot. Snap shot is printed as a special weapon, that can grant a bonus attack using its weapon.

1 hour ago, Ysenhal said:

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point it is errata'd to have the "Bonus attack:" header instead of just "Attack:", as I don't think using it as an attack during engagement was intended. Possibly also to add a requirement that the target be in your primary arc as that would make more sense within the fiction of the game.

Possibly. But honestly don't have an issue with it working as a normal attack, given how restrictive it is (2 dice, only range 2, no range bonus, no modding the dice; Foresight adds range 1 and 1 focus mod, but restricts it to bullseye). Even if it is "an attack", its an arguably poor one. Its only made worth it because it also grants a bonus attack, and ANY bonus attack is a good attack. But given an option, if you have both a primary, and snapshot available, 99% of the time, you'll take the primary shot.

RAW there is no doubt in my mind that Snap Shot and Foresight can be used as regular attacks during the engagement phase, whether it's intended or not.

i do not think it's fair or fun that it can be done, but it can be done without breaking the rules. it is not stated that a ship executing a maneuver is a requirement to use Snap Shot, even though it can be viewed as such.

23 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I did not understand a darned thing on the front page. That you can not run it down for me suggests that you also do not understand it. You got the answer you wanted and so you "understand."

How can this weapon be used at any time other than "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver?" Spell it out for me.

(Please note that I am deliberately not addressing that this can be used on anything not in the front arc of the ship. I'm willing to let that be neither here nor there for the time being.)

Please stick to the part where you can do this in the engagement phase. Please explain it to me. Spell it out. Show your work. I don't understand at all. (Although I now much better understand the motivation for FFG to blow up the rulebook like they just did.)

How can this be used during the engagement phase?

It is a special attack that also has a bonus attack capability.

22 hours ago, Frimmel said:

That helps me point out how wrong all of you are.

Aren't you following just the parts of "Special Weapons" that you like? You've left a lot out of that haven't you?

How is "after an enemy ship executes a maneuver" applicable in the engagement phase. How isn't that a special requirement that must be met? You're ignoring the special requirement if you say this can be done in the engagement phase.

You're also clearly ignoring the arc restriction.

The first paragraph is not a requirement - it's a trigger for a bonus attack, not a regular attack. The arc restriction is the same type of graphical indicator as things like Dengar's (JM5K) bonus attack being triggered when his turret arc is in his front arc. This provides an arc restriction (V), a range restriction ([Ord] 2), and the qualification for a special weapon ([Ord] symbol), with a limit on how the attack functions (Attack: Your dice cannot be modified). In all respects, this is an attack from a special weapon that can be executed as a regular attack, with a triggering event that creates a bonus attack.

22 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I understand fully what you're arguing now. I think it is wrong on its face. "After an enemy executes a maneuver" isn't an "additional application" it is a possibly other requirement that can not be met during the activation phase. Compare Snap Shot and Foresight to Proton Torpdeoes.

No "possibly other requirements." A "special requirement" in target lock but not like Snap Shot's "possibly other requirements" of needing a ship that has met a trigger. That trigger and thus those "possibly other requirements" can not be met in the engagement phase.

The "executes a maneuver" ability enables the bonus attack, not the regular attack. The ProTorp example above includes the requirement of also having a [Lock] in order to perform it.

21 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

Doesn’t it matter that the actual card is printed as an elite talent and not a torpedo, missile, laser canon, or turret? It is a bonus attack.

The attack header just says that this talent is used as an attack, not for defending (or something else).

Im with Frimmel on this one.

There's nothing preventing Talents from providing special attacks. The other examples you cite are all also special attacks.

20 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I'm not saying Foresight and Snapshot aren't a special weapon. I'm saying you have to meet the trigger. If you meet the trigger and perform the attack that is your one bonus attack for the turn.

You guys are saying since it says "ATTACK:" anything before that doesn't matter and you can take it or leave it as convenient. It wouldn't matter much as if you wanted to do this instead of your primary I'm probably going to look at you like you're stupid and go "sure" except... there is the case of the RZ-2 that I now understand. And there is the future where the part after attack, the arc, the dice, the range might not be so much a better looking choice for the defender than Snap Shot over a primary.

This very much matters for that A-wing chassis. You guys want to steal an attack with this for a ship that might be missing it's attack because of an incorrectly positioned turret. So whether or not you can just ignore an entire paragraph of text very much matters. The special weapons rules clearly state that there are possibly other requirements and places no limitations on those.

Is there another special weapon that has text before the ATTACK: header besides Foresight and Snap Shot?

It's not something that can be taken or left as convenient. What that first paragraph does is provide the conditions to meet for a bonus attack , without in any way impeding the card's use as a special weapon attack during the Engagement phase, as it appears to be saying. This would allow an unmodified front-arc RZ-2 attack during the Engagement phase, at the cost of using the Turret primary attack on the ship if it's rear-facing. If Snap Shot's bonus attack trigger occurs, there is nothing preventing a rear-facing RZ-2 turret being used as a regular attack in the Engagement phase as well.

Edit: The below is from the Rules Reference (p. 18) on what constitutes a special weapon.

SPECIAL WEAPON
Special weapons appear as “Attack:” headers in card text. They provide
additional types of attacks other than a ship’s primary weapon(s).
Special weapons have a combination of arc requirements, range requirements,
attack value, and possibly other requirements. The arc icon indicates where
the target needs to be in order to use this attack. The range requirement
indicates the span of legal attack ranges. The red attack value is used to
determine the number of attack dice to roll during the Roll Attack Dice step.
For cards with special requirements, all of those requirements must be met in
order to perform that attack.
• Some special weapons have a small ordnance icon on
them to indicate that range bonuses are not applied with
attacks using those weapons.
• Arc restrictions appear as arc icons listed to the left of the
attack value. The arc restriction requires that the defender be in that arc
of the attacker.
• Range requirements are white numbers that appear as a range of
numbers listed below the attack value and arc restriction.
• Some attacks also have special requirements listed in parentheses after
the header.
◊ The “Attack (󲁁):” header indicates that the attacker must have a
lock on the defender.
◊ The “Attack (󲁀):” header indicates that the attacker must have a
focus token.
• Since special weapons are not primary weapons, they do not benefit from
abilities that trigger while performing a primary attack.
• Any type of upgrade card attack (such as a 󲁍 attack) is a special attack.