25 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

If anything, its worse. Veer, Leia, and their accompanied troops were out in a few months. Longer than ideal, but it happens. The CW core set will drop, and then it'll be almost 4 months without a new expansion, and 6 until we actually start getting legitimate vehicles. Not sure who thought that was a good idea, but they suck.

Especially since FFG is going to be spacing out the CW releases with more GCW releases (such as the Operatives). I understand that the GCW needs releases as well to keep the whole "You don't have to buy a non-faction unit just to get X card" thing, but this will slow down the CW factions from filling out anywhere near as quickly as the GCW factions. Honestly it took somewhere between 1-2 years of nothing but GCW releases to get options for every Force Org slot, how much longer will it take with a handful of GCW units thrown in?

Personally, I think the Weapon Specialists packs could have waited for until CW was at least closer to the state the GCW armies are in now, rather than occupying 1-2 release slots.

47 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

It's actually a huge mistake by FFG. New CW players will get bored and possible leave the game.

I was this player last year. Bought the core set, but had to wait several months for Leia and I got bored and spent my money elsewhere. Now, I proxy rebels and empire when I want to play.

I was hoping the CW would be different, but so far no...

I'm that player this year. If the CW core set had had a street date of tomorrow, I'd have bought 2. As things are looking now, I'm buying none and not getting into Legion at all. I played a few demos at my LGS, really enjoyed the game, and was excited to be able to start with the new factions. But that excitement has cooled and new games have come along that I've decided to spend my budget on.

4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Personally, I think the Weapon Specialists packs could have waited for until CW was at least closer to the state the GCW armies are in now, rather than occupying 1-2 release slots.

Agreed. I get that they wanted the existing factions to get more options, but it just delays the CW roll out, and I doubt it'll offer all that much in return. Nothing in the pack really is making me rethink the DLT-19 for the Empire, nor the Z-6/DC-15 combo for the Republic. The captain upgrade is far, far more interesting, but most of what I'd be interested in him for would just be better handled by a CW specialist pack commander upgrade.

10 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

I'm that player this year. If the CW core set had had a street date of tomorrow, I'd have bought 2. As things are looking now, I'm buying none and not getting into Legion at all. I played a few demos at my LGS, really enjoyed the game, and was excited to be able to start with the new factions. But that excitement has cooled and new games have come along that I've decided to spend my budget on.

I'm sorry to hear that. But like I said, it happens and will lose them money.

I've never seen a company fail this badly at big releases until I started playing Armada and now Legion....

Hopefully, you come back when the super heavies are released!

46 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

I'm sorry to hear that. But like I said, it happens and will lose them money.

I've never seen a company fail this badly at big releases until I started playing Armada and now Legion....

Hopefully, you come back when the super heavies are released!

Really? I guess you don't spend a lot of time on Kickstarter then 😛

I've also seen Games Workshop release new versions of games people were super excited about... and then almost entirely stop supporting them after the starter box, despite their initial claims that the game would have "regular support."

In case anyone needs any more evidence of how bad the "Upcoming" page is, they've got the Wave V X-Wing stuff listed as "on the boat" while FFG's Facebook page is proudly declaring that they're "available now!" Jeez, you'd think they could at least get all of their online presence to tell the same story, even if they refuse to tell us that story otherwise.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/9/13/available-now-september-13/

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/upcoming/ (scroll way down for the X-Wing crap)

13 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Really? I guess you don't spend a lot of time on Kickstarter then 😛

I've also seen Games Workshop release new versions of games people were super excited about... and then almost entirely stop supporting them after the starter box, despite their initial claims that the game would have "regular support."

It's expected with kickstarter though. You're investing money into a game that could never be released. We are talking about a company here that has been around for along time.

Most likely, GW didn't support those games because those games failed financially. Why invest more money into a product that won't sell?

2 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

It's expected with kickstarter though. You're investing money into a game that could never be released. We are talking about a company here that has been around for along time.

Most likely, GW didn't support those games because those games failed financially. Why invest more money into a product that won't sell?

Some of the kickstarters I've seen fail are not from start up companies, but established organizations. But yes, different platform, different expectations.

As the the specialists games, the first wave starters for some of these games sold out in short order,but follow on product was month and months later, or is widely spaced out leading the game to gradually die out in some markets.

2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Some of the kickstarters I've seen fail are not from start up companies, but established organizations. But yes, different platform, different expectations.

As the the specialists games, the first wave starters for some of these games sold out in short order,but follow on product was month and months later, or is widely spaced out leading the game to gradually die out in some markets.

The ever common problem of games and hoping to predict sales.

Just now, crx3800 said:

The ever common problem of games and hoping to predict sales.

Which is also a problem FFG has had in the past. I remember X-wing V1, where ships would sell out in a flash, and it would be MONTHS before more product showed up on the shelves.

At my FLGS, if you didn't pre-order or show up at open on launch day, you were very unlikely to get the ship. At least Legion hasn't really had that issue lately, whether that's because they're getting more product or fewer people are buying the miniatures, it's hard to say.

27 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Especially since FFG is going to be spacing out the CW releases with more GCW releases (such as the Operatives). I understand that the GCW needs releases as well to keep the whole "You don't have to buy a non-faction unit just to get X card" thing, but this will slow down the CW factions from filling out anywhere near as quickly as the GCW factions. Honestly it took somewhere between 1-2 years of nothing but GCW releases to get options for every Force Org slot, how much longer will it take with a handful of GCW units thrown in?

Does it make it worse that they are still throwing out GCW stuff in this long wait? After the patch Vader is down 20 points, Luke was always good, and the meta feels more open now. Makes the CW factions feel even worse when you think how long the wait could be.

37 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Agreed. I get that they wanted the existing factions to get more options, but it just delays the CW roll out, and I doubt it'll offer all that much in return. Nothing in the pack really is making me rethink the DLT-19 for the Empire, nor the Z-6/DC-15 combo for the Republic. The captain upgrade is far, far more interesting, but most of what I'd be interested in him for would just be better handled by a CW specialist pack commander upgrade.

Those weapon specialist packs give me such mixed feelings. As a rebels player they look great since i get a range 4 weapon and alien species, but as a future CIS player it makes me sad that is another month without more options then B1s and Droidekars.

33 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

I've never seen a company fail this badly at big releases until I started playing Armada and now Legion....

To be fair they have not crashed the plane with no survivors.....yet, but the release schedule does not look pretty. I think (hope) we will get the CW by the end of this month and Luke/Vader sometime in October. As for November and December I don't like the idea that the pricey bunker is taking up a month by itself and the weapon specialist I feel really help only one faction. That's pretty meh overall, but thrown in R2/3P0 being pushed back, the rumors that the two unannounced units are more GCW commanders, Dewback being afk, a lack of communication(at bare a release order), and maybe the mouse having a say in things means that said plane crash has a higher chance in happening.

But I'll hold out hope that R2 was thrown back for Rex/Dooku this year(we will found out when they drop the article), the two unannounced units are CW special forces, and that the terrain won't count for their monthly release anymore.

3 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

To be fair they have not crashed the plane with no survivors.....yet, but the release schedule does not look pretty. I think (hope) we will get the CW by the end of this month and Luke/Vader sometime in October. As for November and December I don't like the idea that the pricey bunker is taking up a month by itself and the weapon specialist I feel really help only one faction. That's pretty meh overall, but thrown in R2/3P0 being pushed back, the rumors that the two unannounced units are more GCW commanders, Dewback being afk, a lack of communication(at bare a release order), and maybe the mouse having a say in things means that said plane crash has a higher chance in happening.

But I'll hold out hope that R2 was thrown back for Rex/Dooku this year(we will found out when they drop the article), the two unannounced units are CW special forces, and that the terrain won't count for their monthly release anymore.

Ofcourse. My post is an exaggeration. But I'm growing more and more disappointed with how they have managed this release.

1 hour ago, RyantheFett said:

Does it make it worse that they are still throwing out GCW stuff in this long wait? After the patch Vader is down 20 points, Luke was always good, and the meta feels more open now. Makes the CW factions feel even worse when you think how long the wait could be.

Those weapon specialist packs give me such mixed feelings. As a rebels player they look great since i get a range 4 weapon and alien species, but as a future CIS player it makes me sad that is another month without more options then B1s and Droidekars.

To be fair they have not crashed the plane with no survivors.....yet, but the release schedule does not look pretty. I think (hope) we will get the CW by the end of this month and Luke/Vader sometime in October. As for November and December I don't like the idea that the pricey bunker is taking up a month by itself and the weapon specialist I feel really help only one faction. That's pretty meh overall, but thrown in R2/3P0 being pushed back, the rumors that the two unannounced units are more GCW commanders, Dewback being afk, a lack of communication(at bare a release order), and maybe the mouse having a say in things means that said plane crash has a higher chance in happening.

But I'll hold out hope that R2 was thrown back for Rex/Dooku this year(we will found out when they drop the article), the two unannounced units are CW special forces, and that the terrain won't count for their monthly release anymore.

Given that in interviews it was indicated CW would constitute something like 75-80% of all releases, yet that's not how it feels right now with the announced products. The new GCW releases seem to be designed to add the "new" cards, but I thought that was the point of the card pack? The "neutral" expansions are geared more for GCW (although I guess CW bunkers were close to the same design?), and feel out of place when the CW factions are still in their infancy. I understand the neutral faction packs have probably been in development for awhile, but shouldn't the CW stuff have been in the same loop? I guess it is possible the bunker got through development cycles first...

The inclusion of the unit cards in the weapons specialist also feels a bit weird to me. It's designed to produce 1 of each upgrade, or 4 troops with normal weapons, with the intention of using those bodies to diversify your forces (moreso for Rebels than anyone else honestly). I guess in theory you could field them as a unit, but the model you'd use for Unit Leader would probably coincide with the one for the Trooper upgrade card, which can lead to confusion. It feels like to justify the inclusion of the card, the pack almost should have 1-2 more miniatures. Plus I've gotten quite a bit of diversity on my Rebel troopers just with third party head swaps.

Dewbacks at least are a known issue, all of the boxes have the wrong base and FFG is working on fixing the issue. So for once we know the exact reason for the delay. I do think some of the issues might be related to needing approval from Disney for design decisions, and FFG not having control over the order things get approved.

1 hour ago, R3dReVenge said:

I'm sorry to hear that. But like I said, it happens and will lose them money.

They'll still be rolling in Legion-related dough though so ultimately what do they care? If you're already posting huge profits, "lost" money is purely hypothetical. It's alien to me that people have "hobby attention spans" that are shorter than a few months. FFG's release schedule can't accommodate the itch for instant gratification, miniature gaming just doesn't fit into that category of broad human endeavor.

Quote

I've never seen a company fail this badly at big releases until I started playing Armada and now Legion....

Having played miniatures games for decades, I've seen far, far worse. From GW and others. A lot of GW's big releases seem to be downright Orwellian, they'll have some fanfare in White Dwarf and their website about how great is to have the chocolate ration increased to 20 grams a week when it had been 40 grams...

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Personally, I think the Weapon Specialists packs could have waited for until CW was at least closer to the state the GCW armies are in now, rather than occupying 1-2 release slots.

Do we actually know that additional GCW releases are slowing down Clone Wars? Maybe they were in a behind the scenes pipeline before CW was agreed as the next step by the FFG folks. Or, more likely in my opinion, they won't release stuff for the new factions as quickly as they said, because they're being more careful about playtesting than they were for GCW.

Personally, I think they should take anything that could exist in the Clone Wars era (Wookies, AT-RT's, Atgar Towers, Chewbacca) and re-issue them in Clone Wars boxes with some card tweaks and new crews, just to expand that era as fast as possible. Even if it means Clones get way more releases than droids.

1 minute ago, R3dReVenge said:

My post is an exaggeration. But I'm growing more and more disappointed with how they have managed this release.

Oh no, I agreed with your statement entirely and I am just trying to figure out FF master plan(or really if they have a plan at all) in all this. Also like to think (hope) nothing can really compare to the pure insanity of what happened to Armada, but we are probably in the worst timeline..............

Really think at this point Disney pulled the strings and screwed them, but that does not explain all of it away. Almost feels like they unknowingly poisoned CW and set it up to fail in the long run. There is a really large gap between CW releases dates and I would have cancelled my order if I could have (splitting with a friend who is super loyal and refuses wait) and just waited till at least Dooku and the tank. With point changes and oLuke I rather just play "new" rebels then pissed about the weird release dates and stuck playing the same list for 4(5?) months.

Having just read the late 20 posts or so, I find myself struggling to write my thoughts in a way that doesn’t point to someone else directly and/or inadvertently start an e-fight & look like trolling. So understand that this is not coming from a malicious place. Sorry in advance to anyone offended.

How can FFG mismanage a product release for a product that has 1) not been released or 2) missed a deadline*?

After Sep 30 have at it by all means. To me, hitting the doom button before the expansion is even on shelves looks... odd.

*Dewback precedent noted, but that I’ll counter that was sufficiently communicated as to why.

12 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

They'll still be rolling in Legion-related dough though so ultimately what do they care? If you're already posting huge profits, "lost" money is purely hypothetical.

Lost profit is lost profit. It's a fact that they lost at least 500 dollars from myself and 200 from this other user. I also no several other players at my shop that don't play legion due to the slow release schedule.

14 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

It's alien to me that people have "hobby attention spans" that are shorter than a few months. FFG's release schedule can't accommodate the itch for instant gratification, miniature gaming just doesn't fit into that category of broad human endeavor.

Every person is different when it comes to hobbying. I've come across people who would play complete proxy armies and others who wouldn't play a single game until their army was painted. At the end of the day, FFG needs to accommodate both sides if they want their product to succeed at a healthy rate.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a definite release date for your products. Especially, when you're releasing the second core wave.

20 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Having played miniatures games for decades, I've seen far, far worse. From GW and others. A lot of GW's big releases seem to be downright Orwellian, they'll have some fanfare in White Dwarf and their website about how great is to have the chocolate ration increased to 20 grams a week when it had been 40 grams...

I played 40K from 5th-7th edition. I didn't have any issues. In fact, I loved their release schedule. However, their constant increase in prices + my loss of interest drove me away from the game. I probably spent ~4k on their stuff over a 5-6 year period.

11 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

Having just read the late 20 posts or so, I find myself struggling to write my thoughts in a way that doesn’t point to someone else directly and/or inadvertently start an e-fight & look like trolling. So understand that this is not coming from a malicious place. Sorry in advance to anyone offended.

How can FFG mismanage a product release for a product that has 1) not been released or 2) missed a deadline*?

After Sep 30 have at it by all means. To me, hitting the doom button before the expansion is even on shelves looks... odd.

*Dewback precedent noted, but that I’ll counter that was sufficiently communicated as to why.

I believe the fear is due to the R2 wave being pushed further back and still no word on CW stuff. Also mismanaged dewbacks...

2 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Do we actually know that additional GCW releases are slowing down Clone Wars? Maybe they were in a behind the scenes pipeline before CW was agreed as the next step by the FFG folks. Or, more likely in my opinion, they won't release stuff for the new factions as quickly as they said, because they're being more careful about playtesting than they were for GCW.

Fair point. I'll amend my comment to the perception of slowing down the CW releases. It would be a little weird that the weapon specialists at least were in the pipeline given the inclusion of CW units as well. I could see that for Vader and Luke, but less so if the rumoured unknown releases really are GCW commanders. I think GCW is in a decent state to wait a bit, so FFG could have planned ahead and focused on developing CW product those factions "catch up" a bit.

Honestly, I think it is possible that FFG allowing itself regular points changes means they may be less careful about playtesting. After all, the most it will be unbalanced for is a year.

1 minute ago, Kwatchi said:

Having just read the late 20 posts or so, I find myself struggling to write my thoughts in a way that doesn’t point to someone else directly and/or inadvertently start an e-fight & look like trolling. So understand that this is not coming from a malicious place. Sorry in advance to anyone offended.

How can FFG mismanage a product release for a product that has 1) not been released or 2) missed a deadline*?

After Sep 30 have at it by all means. To me, hitting the doom button before the expansion is even on shelves looks... odd.

I don't think it's doom, since Star Wars minis are likely to sell regardless of the state of the actual game. BUT ,looking ahead it may take the CW factions a bit longer than initially projected for them to get close to "catching up" at least in terms of variety. So for a while at least, people who only want to play one of the CW factions may struggle against the GCW factions, or at the very least will all be running VERY similar lists. This can be problematic for keeping new players excited and in the game. X-Wing has the advantage of smaller "armies" so a new faction doesn't need as many units to provide a decent amount of variation.

Additionally, it's VERY annoying that product was available for GenCon (beginning of August), yet there is no firm word on when to expect the general release. We know the product is "done," so the only issue is getting enough of the product where it needs to be.

Just now, R3dReVenge said:

I believe the fear is due to the R2 wave being pushed further back and still no word on CW stuff. Also mismanaged dewbacks...

How exactly are Dewbacks "mismanaged" when the issue is mispackaging by a third party company? We don't know the exact nature of the fix, it could just be taking this long to get enough bases to each of the warehouses.

People are really quitting this game over slow release schedules? They have releases every month. I am hugely impatient with CW core set release but that's because of my excitement level. FFG has not lost any of my money because of slow release so far most things have come within the time frame they say for Legion. I can not say the same thing for warmachine, heck I remember stuff being 2+ years from announcment until release and I mean full announcement with rules not just a tease of what is to come.

48 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

How can FFG mismanage a product release for a product that has 1) not been released or 2) missed a deadline*?

After Sep 30 have at it by all means. To me, hitting the doom button before the expansion is even on shelves looks... odd.

No, I would say you have a very reasonable view on the matter.

I would say a big issue with Clone Wars and with Legion right now is that they don't really announce dates or orders. Usually they would just do a unit a month and we could easily guess what would be next. With the articles changing dates and the SWL numbers being all over the place we have no idea the order. Thrown on top the fact that the two new factions may not get anything for several months and that may cause a few fans to get a bit worried.

When it comes to Legion my guess it will always be the middle child of Star Wars games. X-wing will always have each wave (last month of each quarter) and points change (every six months) known well in advance. Armada maybe once a year if FF remembers the game. Legion will get something at the end of each month......most likely and the order will make no sense sometimes (Luke/Vader over Rex/Dooku). Could be better, could be worse.

I am looking forward to playing CIS, just not the wait before I can take something other then Grevious, B1s, and droidekars. Just interesting that they really set up CW as something a person can clearly see the advantages of waiting until next year before you really need to buy it.

On the other hand, I'm super excited for Rebels between the points change, pretty much two new Lukes, new aliens, range 4 gun and maybe K2SO. May just bite the bullet and main Rebels over CIS, seems like a safer option now.

34 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

Lost profit is lost profit. It's a fact that they lost at least 500 dollars from myself and 200 from this other user.

If your money (and people like you) can't recoup the significant price of speeding up a supply chain, it's not really "lost" money.

34 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

I also no several other players at my shop that don't play legion due to the slow release schedule.

I reject chasing the newest brand of sneakers, the newest car, and the newest miniatures all equally, as antithetical to happiness.

34 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

I've come across people who would play complete proxy armies ... FFG needs to accommodate both sides if they want their product to succeed at a healthy rate.

FFG doesn't need to accommodate the needs of non-customers to succeed though. That's what proxy armies are.

34 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a definite release date for your products. Especially, when you're releasing the second core wave.

Except it is, when you deal with sprawling, volatile, supply chains AND want to share info with your player base.

34 minutes ago, R3dReVenge said:

I played 40K from 5th-7th edition. I didn't have any issues. In fact, I loved their release schedule. However, their constant increase in prices + my loss of interest drove me away from the game. I probably spent ~4k on their stuff over a 5-6 year period.

Also, as we now know from staff interviews and the like, GW drove you (and me) away on purpose. They don't like veteran players who will notice when they contradict themselves, pretend old things are new, etc. They want a constantly rotating community of newbies who will buy lots of paint and lots of army building blocks like tac squads, then leave to make room for a new-newbie who needs to buy paint and lots of basic squads.

$4k over a 6 year period is not much in grown-up hobbies, and GW is aware of that. Eventually, they know their customers get older and will figure out they can do some pretty awesome stuff in real life for the cost as yet more plastic robots to cram on a shelf. Even W40k is cheap compared to what a lot of people spend on golf, fishing, historical reenacting, a heavy sports fandom, restoring old cars, or whatever.

The thing is, GW gives you a firm date... but usually about 2 weeks before the thing hits. So I had no idea that I should've waited to buy something I'd like more than the thing I just bought. This is a trick by GW, to get me to buy both. I like FFG's approach better. Also, GW was constantly announcing firm dates for things that immediately sold out and were never re-released so I couldn't get one. I count each and every one of those as completely botched releases.

I have a lot of games (and non-gaming hobbies) to pick from and I've never considered release schedule as a factor. Maybe because the whole concept didn't exist when I started gaming.

59 minutes ago, TheHoosh said:

People are really quitting this game over slow release schedules? They have releases every month. I am hugely impatient with CW core set release but that's because of my excitement level. FFG has not lost any of my money because of slow release so far most things have come within the time frame they say for Legion. I can not say the same thing for warmachine, heck I remember stuff being 2+ years from announcment until release and I mean full announcement with rules not just a tease of what is to come.

In my case, I haven't even started because the Clone Wars factions are all that I care about. So in the time that I decided I was interested enough to start collecting for me an my son, our LGS announced they were closing and the venue chosen by the Legion group that played there is just a tad too far away for me to really think I'd go often enough. So in the meantime, the money that I've budgeted for Legion is just sitting there, and then new releases for a game that I do play all the time and an very active in starts to announce their next set of releases, and...there goes my Legion money. Clone Wars was announced in March, cores were available at Gen Con in August, and now we're nearly halfway through September and still don't have anything close to a solid date for when the product will be available.

1 hour ago, RyantheFett said:

I am looking forward to playing CIS, just not the wait before I can take something other then Grevious, B1s, and droidekars. Just interesting that they really set up CW as something a person can clearly see the advantages of waiting until next year before you really need to buy it.

This position I understand because I personally echo it - Republic side in my case. In fact I only want to play Phase II clones for aesthetic reasons and the wait won’t be fun when others have their toys before me. However I realize my personal desire (rationale or not) to have it ASAP doesn’t change FFG’s production-to-retail reality, so no point yelling at the pot I’m watching to boil - gonna happen in the time it takes.

22 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

In my case, I haven't even started because the Clone Wars factions are all that I care about. So in the time that I decided I was interested enough to start collecting for me an my son, our LGS announced they were closing and the venue chosen by the Legion group that played there is just a tad too far away for me to really think I'd go often enough. So in the meantime, the money that I've budgeted for Legion is just sitting there, and then new releases for a game that I do play all the time and an very active in starts to announce their next set of releases, and...there goes my Legion money. Clone Wars was announced in March, cores were available at Gen Con in August, and now we're nearly halfway through September and still don't have anything close to a solid date for when the product will be available.

That sounds like there are other factors for you not playing Legion, Yes the Clone Wars were announced in March for Q3 release and most assumed late Q3 so end of September and the developers in July on FFG Live when demoing the core set, confirmed late Q3 so late September. 6 months from announcement to release seems pretty quick to me.