16 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Dash absolutely minimizes opposing agency and counterplea. There's plenty of examples from Heaver and other top competitive videos and blogs and posts on the versatility of Dash. No. This stated given is wrong.

And to top it off, I still think that Dash / rest of the 2 ship fat turret wing combo was one fo the worst things about 1.0 with plenty of reasons and data why that was so.

You're not talking about the same ship. 2.0 Dash is 100% a different animal than 1.0 Dash. Every bit as much as 2.0 is a different game from 1.0

I can't adequately express my frustration that they're taken as the same thing when they're 100% entirely, absolutely, fundamentally, and completely different. I don't think you've ever used 2.0 Dash except maybe with the broken Roark/Han build (which still had some major vulnerabilities). Most people haven't.

1.0 Dash could white boost and/or barrel roll and had free rerolls in 360°. All he cared about was staying out of arc, which was trivially easy. Or he had countermeasures and Glitterstim plus Lone Wolf so he couldn't care less about what he rolled or what was rolled against him. Or he had engine and PTL so he could just be wherever and not care.

But now, if he lands on a rock, 70% of your list isn't shooting (and is getting shot at 4 times probably). If he rotates his turret he can't barrel roll or focus or lock. If he barrel rolls he has to do a blue or hit an obstacle on his turn (which is not usually easy to do). If someone closes to R1 (which is trivially easy to do now) he has to choose between a red roll or any kind of defensive mods, and that's assuming they move before him.

Again, if you haven't played or played against Dash in 2.0 I feel it's entirely safe to assume you just have no idea what you're talking about. It's nothing personal. I just don't enjoy belaboring a point that's incredibly obvious to someone who's had more experience with it.

I do however agree entirely that 2 ship fat turret combo wing was what killed 1.0 and should never come back. 2.0 Dash is not that and looks nothing remotely like it. There is no existing 2nd edition build with Dash that is capable of any of the things you reference.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Your point about the purpose of obstacles is fair. However, one must note that I've tried many many games (table experience) without rocks. The game is much better with some pathing choices, and not simple pure flat space. Both for gameplay and for diversity.
One must also remember that reducing number of rocks is also a choice. For casual play, its choosing between even having obstacles, and which obstacles. For new players, I generally pick 4 rocks spread somewhat randomly. As it helps improve gameplay and teaches them to avoid them, without generally coming up often.

I'm also going to argue that Armada, while it has some nice features, has some really terrible game design choices also. The space to rock ratio in that game is much higher to the point of nearly not impacting ships. It does impact squadrons, but it also impacts them in a way that doesn't really create more difficult choices, its more about using and abusing them for cover and positioning. Its been my belief that Armada should have more rocks, maybe add a little more space in between, and that squadrons should take damage from voluntarily landing on them.

All very good points and I agree on all of them. I feel like environments would add a wealth of diversity to competitive play.

'If a ship has overlapped or moved through a gas cloud, it can't perform actions or modify its dice for the rest of the round'

Gas clouds should be simply removed from options for tournaments. They are very good for casual play, but in tournament they just spoil the whole idea.

As gas clouds are supposed to be the "defensive" option, a deplete token for moving through or overlapping I think would suffice. While you are fairly protected behind a gas cloud, your attack would also be diminished. Balanced?

56 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm also going to argue that Armada, while it has some nice features, has some really terrible game design choices also. The space to rock ratio in that game is much higher to the point of nearly not impacting ships. It does impact squadrons, but it also impacts them in a way that doesn't really create more difficult choices, its more about using and abusing them for cover and positioning. Its been my belief that Armada should have more rocks, maybe add a little more space in between, and that squadrons should take damage from voluntarily landing on them.

Board space in Armada is... weird. It'd be nice if the board size could he reduced, but all that negative space that isn't used in a given match could have been vital if people brought different things or chose different objectives or lists

As far as obstacles in Armada go... I definitely appreciate Rebellion in the Rim's increased number of obstacles, but I don't know that I could say, for example, "Armada needs about 20% more obstacles," As for Squadrons and rocks...Thematically, Squadrons using obstacles to hide makes complete sence. A little more interactivity might be nice, though.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You're not talking about the same ship. 2.0 Dash is 100% a different animal than 1.0 Dash. Every bit as much as 2.0 is a different game from 1.0

I can't adequately express my frustration that they're taken as the same thing when they're 100% entirely, absolutely, fundamentally, and completely different. I don't think you've ever used 2.0 Dash except maybe with the broken Roark/Han build (which still had some major vulnerabilities). Most people haven't.

1.0 Dash could white boost and/or barrel roll and had free rerolls in 360°. All he cared about was staying out of arc, which was trivially easy. Or he had countermeasures and Glitterstim plus Lone Wolf so he couldn't care less about what he rolled or what was rolled against him. Or he had engine and PTL so he could just be wherever and not care.

But now, if he lands on a rock, 70% of your list isn't shooting (and is getting shot at 4 times probably). If he rotates his turret he can't barrel roll or focus or lock. If he barrel rolls he has to do a blue or hit an obstacle on his turn (which is not usually easy to do). If someone closes to R1 (which is trivially easy to do now) he has to choose between a red roll or any kind of defensive mods, and that's assuming they move before him.

Again, if you haven't played or played against Dash in 2.0 I feel it's entirely safe to assume you just have no idea what you're talking about. It's nothing personal. I just don't enjoy belaboring a point that's incredibly obvious to someone who's had more experience with it.

I do however agree entirely that 2 ship fat turret combo wing was what killed 1.0 and should never come back. 2.0 Dash is not that and looks nothing remotely like it. There is no existing 2nd edition build with Dash that is capable of any of the things you reference.

You're spot on. I haven't actually played Dash 2.0.

Though, I will note I'm pretty much complaining about Dash 1.0. This was exactlyy what I was complaining about, so at least here we're on the same page: "1.0 Dash could white boost and/or barrel roll and had free rerolls in 360°. All he cared about was staying out of arc, which was trivially easy. Or he had countermeasures and Glitterstim plus Lone Wolf so he couldn't care less about what he rolled or what was rolled against him. Or he had engine and PTL so he could just be wherever and not care."

Also noting I was very unhappy when I read Dash's ability in 2.0.

Generally I'm also not fond of the lack of weakening of attack power as a ship takes damage, a la Epic ship sections, fat expensive ships, and even point fortresses like Jedi.

Just now, Squark said:

Board space in Armada is... weird. It'd be nice if the board size could he reduced, but all that negative space that isn't used in a given match could have been vital if people brought different things or chose different objectives or lists

As far as obstacles in Armada go... I definitely appreciate Rebellion in the Rim's increased number of obstacles, but I don't know that I could say, for example, "Armada needs about 20% more obstacles," As for Squadrons and rocks...Thematically, Squadrons using obstacles to hide makes complete sence. A little more interactivity might be nice, though.

Yeah. I understand what its there for and when its needed (for MSU, which is also already almost a dead archetype with how FFG is pushing that games balance...) but id bet easily 90% of the games do not use the space wisely.

Most of the game is aptly played on 4x3.

I do think Armada needs about 20% more obstacles, though I also think if they do that they can spread them about 1-2cm more apart. Idk. Squadron thematicism is a huge debate, let's not go into it much here, but there's plenty of media to suggest that asteroid fields are dangerous in Star Wars (Ep5 Ep2 for instance). Either way, it just makes squadron movement a lot harder/restrictive if this was the case.

24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

You're spot on. I haven't actually played Dash 2.0. Though, I will note I'm pretty much complaining about Dash 1.0. This was exactly what I was complaining about, so at least here we're on the same page.

I actually really want to commend your honesty here. It's nice to be able to talk about the same thing. There was an extensive thread a couple months back regarding Dash and Dengar where a lot of people showed up just to say "I never want them back in the game at all, even if they're totally different, just because I hated them so much in 1.0."

And honestly, I can kind of relate to the sentiment. There's stuff you just get sick of that turn what should be a good time into a disgustingly painful slog, and it's just not fun. It turns you off of something that you really like and ruins the party. Dash wasn't that for me, but other things certainly were. So I get it.

24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also noting I was very unhappy when I read Dash's ability in 2.0.

Generally I'm also not fond of the lack of weakening of attack power as a ship takes damage, a la Epic ship sections, fat expensive ships, and even point fortresses like Jedi.

In all honesty, I was disappointed as well. They didn't change it at all? There were so many interesting things they could have done! But at least in my experience, it turns out that in spite of that, 2.0 Dash is actually fun to play AND fun to play against, though by all accounts he's very, very not good. A few weeks ago I finally won a game with him (though only once) vs 3 Kimogilas and Torkil Mux. That was a super fat Dash build with Stealth Device involved and I surprisingly got a lot of mileage out of it, but it could have just been RNG or the awful maneuverability of the Kimogilas. It was a really tough game.

He just plays totally differently now. You want to land on or behind a debris cloud pretty much every turn, or you're sunk. You have to stay back at R2-3 or you're screwed. Every action choice is absolutely excruciating, because he only ever gets one action, and actions are the only reliable way for him to get mods at all. Positioning is so important but defensive mods are also so important and it's almost impossible to ever get both the way you want them. It makes for a very interesting game.

Regarding weakening attack power, they've partly done that in epic with the hardpoints going offline from precision shots and requiring energy (which translates to firepower) to bring them back online again. Also with the lower shield count and the ubiquity and consistently plan-wrecking nature of crits, the damage deck applies an adequate effect, especially once crit cascades begin to happen. Ships that get seriously damaged really do effectively have diminishing firepower 9 times out of 10. Sufficient for me anyway. Your mileage may vary.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I actually really want to commend your honesty here. It's nice to be able to talk about the same thing. There was an extensive thread a couple months back regarding Dash and Dengar where a lot of people showed up just to say "I never want them back in the game at all, even if they're totally different, just because I hated them so much in 1.0."

And honestly, I can kind of relate to the sentiment. There's stuff you just get sick of that turn what should be a good time into a disgustingly painful slog, and it's just not fun. It turns you off of something that you really like and ruins the party. So I get it.

In all honesty, I was disappointed as well. They didn't change it at all? There were so many interesting things they could have done! But at least in my experience, it turns out that in spite of that, 2.0 Dash is actually fun to play AND fun to play against, though by all accounts he's very, very not good. A few weeks ago I finally won a game with him (though only once) vs 3 Kimogilas and Torkil Mux. That was a super fat Dash build with Cloaking Device involved and I surprisingly got a lot of mileage out of it, but it could have just been RNG or the awful maneuverability of the Kimogilas. It was a really tough game.

He just plays totally differently now. You want to land on or behind a debris cloud pretty much every turn, or you're sunk. You have to stay back at R2-3 or you're screwed. Every action choice is absolutely excruciating, because he only ever gets one action, and actions are the only reliable way for him to get mods at all. Positioning is so important but defensive mods are also so important and it's almost impossible to ever get both the way you want them. It makes for a very interesting game.

Regarding weakening attack power, they've partly done that in epic with the hardpoints going offline from precision shots and requiring energy (which translates to firepower) to bring them back online again. Also with the lower shield count and the ubiquity and consistently plan-wrecking nature of crits, the damage deck applies an adequate effect, especially once crit cascades begin to happen. Ships that get seriously damaged really do effectively have diminishing firepower 9 times out of 10. Sufficient for me anyway. Your mileage may vary.

I note that combo-wing didn't exactly happen overnight. it just got worse and worse. And it seemed like FFG really wanted to continue buffing it, as they never ever in the life of 1.0 ever made anything close to a hard/strong counter to fat 2ship even though they made tons of counters to aces (Conner Nets is as close as it gets basically), and then added Kanan for "I can fly ANYWHERE!" was like... insult to injury. Generally I note that Kanan is still around. And Dash is still about 50-70% of the list. That makes me very worried.

I wanted them back in the game, very different. I've tried Dengar and the Jumps, those are... almost hilariously neutered. that red rotate is ... hilariously bad. And the two red dice makes everything sunny and happy. But fun in a very gimped way. Dash with the 4 dice and stuff... whooo.... Not good memories.

Not to mention that overall, Sensor Blindspot makes Dash have 3 dice at R1, which I'm very not fond of. At a HIGHER initiative relatively. And it has a bowtie turret, not a single turret like Dengar. Ugh. I'm getting PTSD okay, enough. I'm out. Bad. I get bad vibes everywhere.

2 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Quick note: Dee won a Hyperspace Trial in Cheyenne, not Denver

Fixed that. Thanks!

30 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I note that combo-wing didn't exactly happen overnight. it just got worse and worse. And it seemed like FFG really wanted to continue buffing it, as they never ever in the life of 1.0 ever made anything close to a hard/strong counter to fat 2ship even though they made tons of counters to aces (Conner Nets is as close as it gets basically), and then added Kanan for "I can fly ANYWHERE!" was like... insult to injury. Generally I note that Kanan is still around. And Dash is still about 50-70% of the list. That makes me very worried.

I wanted them back in the game, very different. I've tried Dengar and the Jumps, those are... almost hilariously neutered. that red rotate is ... hilariously bad. And the two red dice makes everything sunny and happy. But fun in a very gimped way. Dash with the 4 dice and stuff... whooo.... Not good memories.

No I agree. They are serious concerns. BUT Kanan doesn't cost 3 (x2.0 = 6) points anymore. And with the (stupidly expensive) Outrider title, you have other ways of getting rid of stress if you really have to, but again you usually won't want to because you don't have PTL, EI, or any linked actions to leverage stress for you anyway, and Kanan's one pitiful force point (a mere shadow of the former expertise) would usually be worth much more than the versatility of maneuver. The reason I'm okay with Dash after playing him really comes down to a few things:

1. Upgrades are generally much weaker. No expertise, no PTL, and so on. Your only reposition is red (and extremely limited in 2.0, nothing like 1.0 BR) unless you choose to take EH, which means you don't have Trick Shot. Or Lone Wolf. Crew? Maybe PerCop? But then if you're stressed or get bumped, which happens all the time, you get nothing ...

2. Upgrades that are strong are expensive . It's very tempting to fly without Outrider, or without a gunner, or without a talent, and so on, just because of how much more chassis you're missing out on.

3. Combos that are problematic get nerfed fast. Handbrake Han was strong and kind of a NPE. It got guttered. C-3Leebo was interesting and not very strong anyway and it got destroyed. Roark Dash was broken and performed about average and it was annihilated by both points changes and a rules change. The devs really are moving against this stuff.

4. 2-ship lists are in the place where 4-5 ship lists were in 1.0 for the most part. They're the lists that are cool and interesting and really quirky, but they generally just don't perform unless the player is really extraordinary. They're deliberately anti-meta and I like that.

28 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Not to mention that overall, Sensor Blindspot makes Dash have 3 dice at R1, which I'm very not fond of. At a HIGHER initiative relatively. And it has a bowtie turret, not a single turret like Dengar. Ugh. I'm getting PTSD okay, enough. I'm out. Bad. I get bad vibes everywhere.

I know, right? 4-dice primary, really, FFG? I thought there wouldn't be any of those in 2.0 except in epic ships! Biggest disappointment of 2.0, honestly. I'd have liked to see another 3-primary, but cheaper than the nonsense it is now.

But it turns out that it only works out to being a little better than the Falcon's primary on average and can lead to much, much worse situations than the Falcon is ever likely to face. The Falcon is on reasonably even footing at any range (once you factor in maneuverability, initiative, upgrades, etc.). The Outrider has a "Kill me" button on its forehead that you just have to push.

No seriously. Not only does the bow tie arc make getting your shots a tricky proposition, especially with the very limited availability of repositioning, but if 2 ships close to range one, you're talking about eating 2 4-dice attacks on your 160 point, 10hp, 2-agi ship, and in return serving up a single 3-dice attack. Or you could roll out of range and take two 3-dice shots and shoot with 4 dice, but then you're stressed and you have no mods and you have to do an extremely predictable blue next turn, so one of those two ships will block it, guaranteed, so you won't even get the choice next round.

The worst thing is this can happen from outside your arc. So then you have to decide whether to rotate just to shoot back , focus just to try to survive , or roll and get stressed just to try to survive, without shooting back at all. Pretty grim options all around and it happens more often than you'd think. And that's to say nothing of what the other 50% of his list is doing.

It's really funny because it lets new players do exactly what they want to do: run right into your face and shoot you up. It's crazy how well it works. There's nothing you can do about 4 3-primary ships in a block except turn and run. And if they chase you out of the obstacles, you're high and dry. You can be cornered. You can be blocked, and you'll just die mind-numbingly quickly unless you can really guess exactly where he's putting those ships.

Turrets just aren't the same at all, even bow-tie turrets.

I agree with this in general.

clouds are definitely the “defensive” obstacle and that’s fine.

This may be harsh but I would love to see the consequence be “gain a disarm token”.

Not a fan of the gas clouds. They do seem to be an "easy button". Also, I just dont use them, I prefer rocks over all, and bigger is better.

I dislike their relative lack of consequences. I have found it telling when I was trialling taking 3 of them, I was annoyed when my opponent also brought 3. With aces, if the sole objective is to gain defensive mods, running over them and having no action provides a better defensive bonus than avoiding them and taking an evade. (3 agility vs focused 3 die attack)

At the recent Aus System Open, even though I was running a defender, I brought debris simply to narrow the field for Jedi so they can't just do their Brave Sir Robin bit and run away. Sure it was a bit of a nombo with my defender, but you know, just don't hit them? Debris was also effectively a blank obstacle for my shuttle, which carried more weight for me than worrying about hitting them with my defender.

Since the Gas Clouds were released with the prequel factions and in turn the strain mechanic, I really thought they were going to dish out a strain token upon overlapping.

I still believe that's the perfect condition to add to the obstacle type.

I'd like to see a penalty for flying over/into the clouds; while it hasn't really been a factor in my local meta (for some reason, most of us are addicted to big rocks, and we cannot lie), it massively reduces the 'effort' required for certain lists. For example, a friend played a Sinker Swarm for a time (Sinker, I2 Arc, 4x GST) with Gas Clouds. It was obnoxious. He would roll up in formation, having placed the gas clouds to prevent other obstacles being in his path, and he wouldn't have to break his formation due at all. Had there been strain thrown at him for flying over the clouds? That may have given him pause, as I'd imagine the V-19s would have been much more vulnerable.

On the blog post:

Qi'ra is further balanced out on 2 more things:

1) You are announcing were you want to go with the Qi'ra carrier by locking an object.

This can on the other hand be used for mind games (feinting you go there but actually going somewhere else).

2) but in both cases it costs your current attack or future attack important dice mods , because you cannot use your target lock on offense.

As on the clouds.

Totally agree.

I said already in january

14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

It's Reddit, they use the location as an excuse to be asses.

The only good thing about Reddit, is it’s not a chan board.

I’m undecided on Gas Clouds. But they do seem lacking in penalty for ships flying through them.

I wonder what effect on the game it would have to allow gas clouds to be placed less than range 1 of other obstacles (but not range 0), and to make it so 2 separate gas clouds count as 1 obstacle for placement to a maximum allowed number of gas clouds a player brings being 4 clouds total.

That way there are more, and they can clump up around other obstacles, or create a denser cloud area on the board. But taking them would still require a player to bring *something* else beside gas.

19 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Bad players don't want consequences.

This may be true, and may mean that bad players prefer gas clouds (though I know of some who don't), but it doesn't necessarily follow that only bad players like gas clouds. (Unless we're defining "bad player" as "someone who uses gas clouds," in which case the term becomes merely a meaningless insult.)

17 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm also going to argue that Armada, while it has some nice features, has some really terrible game design choices also. The space to rock ratio in that game is much higher to the point of nearly not impacting ships.

Really? From the few Armada games I've played, obstacles were very important. There may be more space, but ships (especially Medium and Large base) are much less maneuverable than fighters, and having to bump an extra notch to avoid them may be the difference between rejoining the fray and making a long, pointless loop that keeps you out of the battle.

Furthermore, objectives can help determine where players want to go, and using obstacles properly can really help there. They don't need to make a massive maze with only a couple correct paths to figure out; subtle influence on strategy is better, in my opinion.

15 hours ago, Squark said:

As for Squadrons and rocks...Thematically, Squadrons using obstacles to hide makes complete sence.

Hey, they'd be crazy to follow you.

I think part of the thing with squadrons is that every Armada squadron is essentially 1.0 Poe: instead of maneuvering they simply get placed wherever you want. Having rocks affect them wouldn't really change much, as just setting them down behind the rock instead of on it is trivial, as opposed to actually needing to maneuver around them.

15 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I actually really want to commend your honesty here. It's nice to be able to talk about the same thing. There was an extensive thread a couple months back regarding Dash and Dengar where a lot of people showed up just to say "I never want them back in the game at all, even if they're totally different, just because I hated them so much in 1.0."

I hated him so much in 1.0 that I won't even use him in Armada ! Much less 2.0.

20 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah, I just think Gas Clouds need something more. I'd prefer lose attack while on it. But something like strain and deplete would be fine too

I'd go with that, personally. If you're hiding in/behind a gas cloud to stay alive, then you shouldn't mind giving up your shot.

At the moment:

Rocks:

• Are very likely to damage you
• Cost you your shot

Debris

• Constrain your movement (or actions) next turn
• Are very unlikely to damage you but still do the nasty things

Gas Clouds

• ........make you next to invulnerable

Basically, they're a terrain piece which is pretty much entirely positive.

Yes, they cost you your action, but the people generally complained about - Jedi - have a bank of force charge which can substitute for the focus they're not getting.

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 11:16 PM, Do I need a Username said:

Some is fine. A-wings (Rebel) are fine. FOtercetpor might be fine, but I like double repo that has an order restriction. Autothrusters isn't too bad either. Really, fined Tuned Control is just the villain here.

'extra reposition' is an issue - probably less than stacking tokens, but it's still an issue. It's most glaring where you can get double-reposition and still have dice modifiers, which basically means Predator Soontir, Afterburners Vader, Kylo Ren.....or basically any jedi with 2+ force charges. Or supernatural reflexes inquisitors, to be fair. But yes, the fact that Fine Tuned Controls is also immune to hitting obstacles is also an issue.

Making landing on a rock count as not fully executed is an easy blanket 'fix' but I'm not sure how big a deal that would be for the various ships and pilots who use that rules term. Relatively few would still voluntarily fly onto a rock, to be fair.

30 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Making landing on a rock count as not fully executed is an easy blanket 'fix' but I'm not sure how big a deal that would be for the various ships and pilots who use that rules term. Relatively few would still voluntarily fly onto a rock, to be fair.

For the first 2 months of 2.0 I actually thought this already was the case, and I frankly have no idea why it isn't. Easy fix and might make gas clouds less bad too.

The idea of a disarm is very interesting to me though; if you're diving into the clouds, you're giving up all of your firepower for that extra defense.

I dislike gas clouds. For all the reasons you mentioned. Plus from a design point of view it makes things harder to balance. Before you could assume there were 6 things to avoid on the map when determining the worth of things. A tie swarm is a different beast with 6 rocks vs 6 gas clouds.

On 9/11/2019 at 4:40 PM, C3gorach said:

As gas clouds are supposed to be the "defensive" option, a deplete token for overlapping i think would suffice. While you are fairly protected behind a gas cloud, your attack would also be diminished. Balanced?

If deplete is the offensive version of Strain, that sounds decent. I'd still like something a little more punishing for running away through them, but it is at least a consequence. I gave though to making the token received based on a die roll. Focus result gives a deplete, hit gives a strain, crit gives an ion, and blank gives nothing. A roulette of negative effects. It seems a bit much to remember though, but I'd probably even be fine with you not losing your action with that roll mechanic.