With point now available, I find myself plotting how to field excessive numbers of Nantex fighters. They're cheap, acceptably tough, fly in a weird fashion and have a good mix of competent generics and named unique pilots available. I accept that picking just Nantex - rather than a mix of other separatist designs - is limiting, but I want to see how I can do with just them.

Plus, you're working for someone called 'Poggle The Lesser' . Which is awesome.

• My first thought is that getting a pure Nantex squad to work is going to require getting my head around manoeuvring by self-tractoring with Pinpoint Tractor Array. The ships look like they should fall somewhere between an A-wing and TIE interceptor.
  • They have 4 hits, but no shields so take any criticals they suffer
  • They have primary 2, but a 3-dice centreline if they can line it up
  • Unlike most clone wars era and scum ships, they have all three speeds of hard turn. In fact, the only basic manoeuvre they lack is the speed 1 straight, which is a really, really good dial even disregarding tractor-jitsu shenanigans.
• I'm tempted to disregard Ensnare for the moment (because learning to fly my ships takes precedence over learning to fly my opponent's ships at the same time!)
• Pinpoint Tractor Array can be considered another 'free boost' mechanic like Autothrusters or Fine-Tuned Controls.
  • Unlike Autothrusters it doesn't cause stress so it doesn't mess up your manoeuvrability in future turns
  • Fine-Tuned Controls eats a force charge you could have used to modify an offensive roll or a defensive roll - whilst Pinpoint Tractor Array compromises your defence but leaves your weapons still at full effectiveness.
  • Unlike Fine-Tuned Controls (and for that matter Snap Wexley, Afterburners and most other rules of that kind), Pinpoint Tractor Array can be used even after an incomplete maneuver. This means you can react to colliding with someone by rolling to the side and slewing your turret back to face them. Blocking a Nantex is a very risky proposition!

I've got a squad designed to be as simple as possible to get my head around the chassis to start with.

• Stalgasin Hive Guard x 4
  • Gravetic Deflection
• Gorgol
  • Gravetic Deflection

I'm tempted to just try 5 Hive Guard so there's no fixed movement order, but Gorgol being able to tractor someone before they move in a sort of pseudo-coordinate and generate a tractor token without having to rotate might be really useful (since one token can 'arm' gravetic deflection for the entire squad), and fixing a ship critical might be worth it too (though it's not the only reason to use the squad!).

Hmm... Theoretically you could give Gorgol Squad Leader and make him quite a nice support piece for a Nantex squad, come to think of it. At only initiative 2, he only pays 6 points for the talent, and he's got a pretty decent blue dial

And a simplistic 'ace' squad to try when I feel happier with it

• Sun Fac
  • Ensnare
  • Gravetic Deflection
• Berwer Kret
  • Ensnare
  • Gravetic Deflection
• Chertek
  • Ensnare
  • Gravetic Deflection

I'm aware Berwer Kret is the weak point here; compared to a generic Petranaki Ace, he's paying 8 points to go from I4 to I5. I'm not going to get any use out of his pilot ability in a pure Nantex squad. On the other hand, it's far from the first time a pilot has been bought purely for their initiative score, and if I took a cheaper Nantex pilot, it's not like they could take much else given their lack of upgrade slots.

Thoughts and advice are welcomed.

I really like ensnare even if it's really pricy, I also like gravimetric deflection but it would probably not be too useful, possibly swapping it out for predator to give them reroles and a larger bid.

Sun Fac (54)
Ensnare (24)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 80 Half Points: 40 Threshold: NaN

Berwer Kret (40)
Ensnare (16)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 58 Half Points: 29 Threshold: NaN

Chertek (39)
Ensnare (10)
Crack Shot (1)

Ship total: 50 Half Points: 25 Threshold: NaN


Total: 188

I think Berwer Kret is worth the extra points, I5 with a decent bid will really help to make sure he is able to get out of arc and then use ensnare to cripple his opponents, in therory you can use sun's tractor token to move an opponents ship into range for I4 ships ensnare to work.

I like the idea of 4 I4s all with ensnare and predator but it probably won't work

For triple-ace Ensnare squads, my first thought is to go Petranaki Ace over Berwer Kret for the bid. Seems like something that'd be easy to feel out through play, but it's what I'd try out first. I'm inclined towards Gravitic Deflection as the 2nd Talent, but there are certainly other options. My inclination towards the best ones are thus:

• Ensnare - this allows a Nantex to be a total bully. Probably the first talent taken, but I can imagine that some builds don't take it to keep expenses down.
• Gravitic Deflection - nearly eliminates the downside of having a tractor token. 2 green dice with a reroll is almost as survivable as 3 green dice. If there are other tractored ships in the arc, you don't even need to be tractored yourself, and maybe that works out.
• Predator/Crack Shot - these only need one entry, since they're essentially the same. I'd personally go Crack Shot on anything other than Sun Fac or maybe Berwer Kret, due to Crack Shot front loading all it's effect into a single attack, and not needing multiple triggers to become more valuable.
• Trick Shot - always worth considering on something with bigger-than-standard firing arcs. Obstructed attacks are almost always a lot easier to get with side-arcs.
  • This might be valuable to consider, since Gas Clouds are common. Gas-obstructed TS attacks do less damage than non-obstructed attacks, but non-TS Gas-obstructed attacks do even less, so if you're trading obstructed cloud shots, you'll probably come out ahead in the end. Meanwhile, Nantex can tractor themselves over Gas Clouds without penalty. You won't lose your action, since you're not overlapping a Gas Cloud on your maneuver. The extra die from the obstruction cancels out the reduced die from having a Tractor token, and with GravDef you'll have a reroll on top of the blank-turn, so you should be pretty safe from incoming fire.

//

I wonder if some sort of Sun Fac + Minions list could work. Sun Fac as chief, with lesser drones doing grunt work. GravDef and Trick Shot Sun Fac comes out to 63 points , and that'd leave room for three 45 points or less minions. There seem to be two options which come to mind: Petranaki Aces with GD and Crack Shot (44 points), or Stalgasin Hive Guards with Ensnare (also 44 points).

• Petranaki/GD variant would be kind of like 3 Sabre TIE Interceptors and Soontir: you have mini-aces supporting the big ace. Probably not an amazing archetype overall, but maybe it'd work. It's worth noting that each Petranaki becomes almost like a mini-Serissu. Those Nantex who don't tractor themselves will have rerolls from any Nantex in arc who do.
• Stalgasin/Ensnare variant probably looks more like the Fenn + 3 Zealots list, in a way. Stalgasin will attempt to set up blocks and tractor someone, with Sun Fac putting in the damage. Doesn't seem too unlikely that some opponent gets tractored somewhere that attacks against them become obstructed, and Trick Shot would be really handy there.
  • Chain-Ensnare also seems handy here. It may be that you don't want to rotate the arc of someone in front, so you do so on a Hive Guard in the back, who Ensnares the one in the front, who then Ensnares an opponent.

Outside the scope of the thread, but I could almost see trying that GD/TS Sun Fac on their own in some other sort of list. Turret-based aces are a new and strange thing, and maybe it works.

I worry about a hive of Nantex without any shields, especially tractored. For that reason, I like Gravitic and I like the idea of taking the evade which lends itself to Juke. I think I might try something like this as an easy way to get used to them. (All i4, one too many points to outfit all with Gravitic/Juke, so I think I like Chertek with the more offensive loadout because of his ability and having one ensnare gives you some repositioning on the opponent.)

Nantex -class Starfighter - •Chertek - 50
•Chertek - Opportunistic Ace (39)
Crack Shot (1)
Ensnare (10)

Nantex -class Starfighter - Petranaki Arena Ace - 50
Petranaki Arena Ace - (38)
Gravitic Deflection (5)
Juke (7)

Nantex -class Starfighter - Petranaki Arena Ace - 50
Petranaki Arena Ace - (38)
Gravitic Deflection (5)
Juke (7)

Nantex -class Starfighter - Petranaki Arena Ace - 50
Petranaki Arena Ace - (38)
Gravitic Deflection (5)
Juke (7)

Total: 200/200

I think 5 deflecting Stalgasins are gonna be a unique sort of challenge, both to fly and to fly against, but I think the same can be said of 4 ensnaring Petranakis, or 3 ensnaring and deflecting aces. I suspect any of those, or a combination, will become THE surgical list - useless and more likely to harm the user in the hands of someone unskilled with it, but astonishing and beautiful in the hands of a master

11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

• Ensnare - this allows a Nantex to be a total bully. Probably the first talent taken, but I can imagine that some builds don't take it to keep expenses down.
• Gravitic Deflection - nearly eliminates the downside of having a tractor token. 2 green dice with a reroll is almost as survivable as 3 green dice. If there are other tractored ships in the arc, you don't even need to be tractored yourself, and maybe that works out.
• Predator/Crack Shot - these only need one entry, since they're essentially the same. I'd personally go Crack Shot on anything other than Sun Fac or maybe Berwer Kret, due to Crack Shot front loading all it's effect into a single attack, and not needing multiple triggers to become more valuable.
• Trick Shot - always worth considering on something with bigger-than-standard firing arcs. Obstructed attacks are almost always a lot easier to get with side-arcs.
  • This might be valuable to consider, since Gas Clouds are common. Gas-obstructed TS attacks do less damage than non-obstructed attacks, but non-TS Gas-obstructed attacks do even less, so if you're trading obstructed cloud shots, you'll probably come out ahead in the end. Meanwhile, Nantex can tractor themselves over Gas Clouds without penalty. You won't lose your action, since you're not overlapping a Gas Cloud on your maneuver. The extra die from the obstruction cancels out the reduced die from having a Tractor token, and with GravDef you'll have a reroll on top of the blank-turn, so you should be pretty safe from incoming fire.

• Ensnare is a talent which dramatically changes the feel of the squad, I think
  • Without ensnare, pinpoint tractor array is basically the Nantex' equivalent of autothrusters or fine-tuned controls; action-free repositioning with a downside. With it, it becomes a potentially game-winning trick in and of itself.
  • It's also very expensive (and justifiably so!) - with it having a minimum price of 10 points, the cheapest Ensnare-equipped Nantex is 44 points, meaning it's already in the maximum-of-4-ships territory, and needing to catch an opponent in arc at range 1, I'm not sure I'd trust a Stalgasin Hive Guard to do the job. The fact that you can tractor someone you've blocked is worth remembering, though; Stalgasin with either Ensnare or Trick Shot are going to be good blockers for that reason.
  • There's some argument for Sun Fac without it - with just Predator/Gravetic Deflection he's still an initative 6 dogfighter with repositioning he can use even if he bumped and a ferocious centreline shot, and he's pretty cheap. It does massively increase his effectiveness, though, and I wouldn't dream of fielding Chertek without it, though.
  • Chain-ensnare is definitely a thing and worth learning to use. It's going to be a brain-melting process, though.
• I agree on Gravetic Deflection.
  • Being able to use Pinpoint Tractor Array without the big downside is great, and a massed swarm all with Deflection can 'cover' one another (with 1-2 undamaged Nantex tractoring themselves each turn, you can continue to fire at the ship you've already damaged, but now it's got 3 green dice and multiple rerolls)
• Predator/Crack Shot - I would go with Predator by default.
  • I agree with what you're saying about Crack Shot; it loads all its value into the 'first' time you get a bullseye shot, which is good because theyre not easy to get.
  • But for the Nantex specifically
    • you're likely to be much more bothered about getting bullseye shots than you might with other ships because you've not only got your talent trigger but also your centreline guns
    • the reroll from Predator is likely to be more valuable than the cancelled evade from Crack Shot, because with tractor tokens a-go-go, your opponent's defence roll is potentially already thoroughly buggered; Crack Shot only matters when the opponent rolls an evade and a lot of ships will be left with one or even no evade dice when getting mugged by bugs.
• Trick Shot
  • It's gotten very expensive now. I agree getting obstructed shots with a manoeuvrable ship with a mobile arc is quite easy, so it should be tempting, but on the other hand we're talking about turning 2 dice into 3, not 3 into 4, and the odds of getting range 1 obstructed shots has to be pretty low.

17 hours ago, Watcher42 said:

I think Berwer Kret is worth the extra points, I5 with a decent bid will really help to make sure he is able to get out of arc and then use ensnare to cripple his opponents,

As noted, 'just' getting I5 is no small beer in and of itself when you've got a ship this mobile.

17 hours ago, Watcher42 said:

in therory you can use sun's tractor token to move an opponents ship into range for I4 ships ensnare to work.

If you can move a ship, it's already as 'tractored' as it's getting. The lower initiative ships getting a chance to offload their own tractor tokens so they roll full defence dice isn't a bad thing in and of itself, though, and as @theBitterFig noted, you can always ensnare the lower initiative pilot, fling them at the enemy, then let them drop your tractor token on someone who wasn't in range 1 of you.

11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I wonder if some sort of Sun Fac + Minions list could work. Sun Fac as chief, with lesser drones doing grunt work. GravDef and Trick Shot Sun Fac comes out to 63 points , and that'd leave room for three 45 points or less minions. There seem to be two options which come to mind: Petranaki Aces with GD and Crack Shot (44 points), or Stalgasin Hive Guards with Ensnare (also 44 points).

• Petranaki/GD variant would be kind of like 3 Sabre TIE Interceptors and Soontir: you have mini-aces supporting the big ace. Probably not an amazing archetype overall, but maybe it'd work. It's worth noting that each Petranaki becomes almost like a mini-Serissu. Those Nantex who don't tractor themselves will have rerolls from any Nantex in arc who do.
• Stalgasin/Ensnare variant probably looks more like the Fenn + 3 Zealots list, in a way. Stalgasin will attempt to set up blocks and tractor someone, with Sun Fac putting in the damage. Doesn't seem too unlikely that some opponent gets tractored somewhere that attacks against them become obstructed, and Trick Shot would be really handy there.
  • Chain-Ensnare also seems handy here. It may be that you don't want to rotate the arc of someone in front, so you do so on a Hive Guard in the back, who Ensnares the one in the front, who then Ensnares an opponent.

Predator/Gravetic Deflection Sun Fac and Petranaki Aces are pretty good 'aces' quite aside from tractor-based shenanigans. I'd like to think the Nantex is a decent dogfighter without a single copy of Ensnare in sight.

10 hours ago, dadocollin said:

I worry about a hive of Nantex without any shields, especially tractored. For that reason, I like Gravitic and I like the idea of taking the evade which lends itself to Juke. I think I might try something like this as an easy way to get used to them.

My concern with this plan is two-fold.

• If you've taken Gravetic Deflection, you've got rerollable defence dice. Rerolled green dice are much, much better when focused than not - to the point that 2 dice with a reroll are basically identical defence whether you're focused or evading. You don't get much benefit from the evade defensively
• When you're using your action to evade, you don't get much benefit from juke because you're not simultaneously focused or locked (not that a Nantex can) so whilst you may bugger your opponent's dice, you'll roll so many fewer hits that the actual gain in damage is pretty minimal.
• A combination of Juke and Predator might work nicely - a centrelined target gets hit with 3 dice with a reroll and juked, but that plan requires centrelining your target with multiple ships, and it means you've got no decent defence (you take the full 'hit' of being tractored and you don't want to spend your evade before you shoot).

8 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

I think 5 deflecting Stalgasins are gonna be a unique sort of challenge, both to fly and to fly against

That's what initially grabbed me; upgrading one to Gorgol was just a way to use the spare points. It does mean no ensnare shenanigans, but they could well be decent dogfighters in and off themselves. Initiative 3 is still pretty good for a non-limited ship and being able to boost or roll for free every turn with basically no downside, even if you bump someone or land on an obstacle, sounds impressive.

Theoretically, 5 Petranaki Arena Aces with Predator fits in a squad, too. I suspect it's going to prove like 5 Predator Black Squadron Scouts or 5 Saber Squadron Aces - sounds cool but not that practical in reality - but that's a surprisingly competent pilot to be able to field a quintet of...

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:44 PM, dadocollin said:

Nantex -class Starfighter - Petranaki Arena Ace - 50
Petranaki Arena Ace - (38)
Gravitic Deflection (5)
Juke (7)

Actually, looking at this unit, I find myself wondering if Snap Shot/Gravetic Deflection might be a nice pairing. That's a four-ship element - enough to have the numerical edge on true 'aces' and with multiple snap-fire arcs. Plus it means you've got a degree of insurance against the turret slewing the wrong way when using tractor array, since you've got the bullseye and the snap-fire arc giving you a sort of 'cross-shape' forward arc even if the turret is slewed sideways, and someone landing in the 'bang to rights' spot of range 2/bullseye is going to suck a lot of fire.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Actually, looking at this unit, I find myself wondering if Snap Shot/Gravetic Deflection might be a nice pairing. That's a four-ship element - enough to have the numerical edge on true 'aces' and with multiple snap-fire arcs. Plus it means you've got a degree of insurance against the turret slewing the wrong way when using tractor array, since you've got the bullseye and the snap-fire arc giving you a sort of 'cross-shape' forward arc even if the turret is slewed sideways, and someone landing in the 'bang to rights' spot of range 2/bullseye is going to suck a lot of fire.

Hmmm what about Juke/Snap Shot? Probably too many points? Without Gravitic and taking a tractor token, it seems like you'll want the evade then, so then you could Juke on both the primary and any snap attacks.

It's a nice combination. My main concern is that you need two talent slots - limiting it to Petranaki Arena Aces - and with 14 points of talents strapped to a 38 point pilot, you're now at 52 points, restricting you to a maximum of 3 ships.

I had my first game with 5 deflection hive guard - it went well; will put a battle report up when I have a chance.

I tried the Nantex out in a CIS list tonight and found that I wasn’t lining up much snap. The ship’s inherent ability and Ensnare were what worked more than once and seemed like they’d be a real nightmare for opponents. Of course, the Nantex then blew up pretty fast. (I didn’t have Gravitic on it).

Edit: I should say that I was using Berwer at I5, so the repositioning abilities were very effective. I can see why they scaled the cost on Ensnare.

Played my first game with a Bughouse Swarm .

It was very different to flying strikers, but just like my beloved TIE/sk, they're a joy to fly, and holding their own against a trio of Imperial Aces on my first outing with them is promising.

Also - since Ketsu Onyo was in discussion; one trick to remember - if you move and use Pinpoint Tractor Array, tractor yourself and elect not to reposition, Ketsu 'flying battering ram' Onyo can't then use her ability to reposition you later in the turn. This could prove deeply annoying since her usual response to blockers is to tractor-roll them off her then give them a range 1 shot with the benefit of Maul's force charge.

They feel very much like a Separatist analogue to five TIE/sf - not a huge amount of firepower per ship, but you can use it consistantly, without losing actions, turn after turn, whilst your opponent has to spend turns lining up again and/or missing actions on red moves.

I should give the five Predator Petranaki Aces a go too. I feel like in their case Pinpoint Tractor Array is more of a trap - they're essentially what you'd get if "Scourge" Skutu with Predator and Hull Upgrade was a couple of points cheaper and not 'limited 1'. I imagine you'd fly them far more like 'conventional' fighters.

I had my second set of games with the Nantex, and my first encounter with Ensnare (which is awesome).

One interesting thing is that my game was with Quick Build Stalgasin Hive Guard, who get Ensnare and Gravetic Deflection. Now in normal play, you can't have four ships with both talents, because the cheapest Nantex with two slots is the Petranaki Arena Ace, who costs the wrong side of 50 points when so equipped.

I get that you can just take them with Ensnare - which leaves two points free per ship. My first thought was Predator, but the more I play with the ships the less I seem to think about their bullseye arc.

What was an interesting thought - given the discussions about Grievous/Chertek/Sun Fac - was trying them with Treacherous. Ensnare + Treacherous sounds like a great combination since creating obstructed shots generates 'free' evades.

14 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

What was an interesting thought - given the discussions about Grievous/Chertek/Sun Fac - was trying them with Treacherous. Ensnare + Treacherous sounds like a great combination since creating obstructed shots generates 'free' evades.

It would seem like Treacherous might be the best on a ship like Sun Fac you could keep at a distance. (And Ensnare is so expensive on him.) What about Sun Fac with Treacherous + Trick Shot? Then you can fit like three Hive Guards with Ensnare or two and Gorgol/Ensnare for a little regen. (Leaves 6+ point bid.)

Picking between one (eye-wateringly expensive) copy of Ensnare on Sun Fac and 2-3 copies of ensnare on generics... I'm really not sure.

It's an interesting debate - it's certainly not as clear-cut as quad-jumpers because the transfer happens after everyone's moved and you can't 'sling' a ship into range by chaining ensnare.

Generic Hive Guard with Ensnare are still interesting, though; they're probably good enough to be worth trying.

I'm not convinced by trick shot - but I guess if you're trying to lob people onto obstacles anyway, it becomes more useful. If I wasn't carrying Ensnare, though, I feel like Gravetic Deflection is a default choice for Sun Fac. Treacherous/Deflection makes him annoyingly tough and - if you can block one enemy's fire with another - a lower initiative hive guard might be able to capitalise on a strained and tractored target.