18 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

so for those who say they are overpowered why do yall think that just curious. they can't go over terrain (unless its difficult terrain as label at the start of the game) also of those who use them or faced off against them are yall enforcing the cornering rule on them?
corner rule under movement is
While moving a mini along a path created by a movement tool, if the base of the mini is impeded by an object, that mini must stop its movement prematurely unless the mini can legally move through, over, or on top of the obstructing object.
they don't have expert climber so they can't go over stuff that is over half their height

They can still climb/clamber, which is stupid as all ****, and they can get a free pivot whenever they activate, so "cornering" has never been an issue. And even if they are forced to stop, how does it really matter? They still get a free dodge and free shot, if they so desire.

18 hours ago, gothound said:

Point increase. His damage/crit output via aim, as well as some of his command cards does a lot for his cost.

Of course I don't actually want him nerfed, Ive come to accept the reality and game where Bosk exists as he does, somthing Imperial players need to do with Tauns. Threads like these show we got some growing pains to go through 😁

I don't get the damage output argument. He throws what, 1 red, 4 white? Without the massive stack of aims he gets once, he only does one or two damage on average.

And I think I should state that my problems with Tauntauns aren't because I'm afraid of them or have a problem playing against them; I've lost (to the best of my recollection) one game where they were invovled, and that was when I was first testing out the Clones. My problem is they have ridiculous action economy for what the are, and there is no reason for it. Little things like climbing and clambering are just dumb, as is the their ability to be so defensive. They're the biggest example of power creep in the game, and I don't understand why everyone is so on board with it.

3 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They can still climb/clamber, which is stupid as all ****, and they can get a free pivot whenever they activate, so "cornering" has never been an issue. And even if they are forced to stop, how does it really matter? They still get a free dodge and free shot, if they so desire.

climb (two actions) and clamber are two different types of actions which aren't standard moves (so no dodge from them) and also they can't do that in conjuction with a move so it will be wasting its turn moving over/ on top of terrain if you terrain hug fight with tauntauns

4 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They can still climb/clamber, which is stupid as all ****, and they can get a free pivot whenever they activate, so "cornering" has never been an issue. And even if they are forced to stop, how does it really matter? They still get a free dodge and free shot, if they so desire.

I don't get the damage output argument. He throws what, 1 red, 4 white? Without the massive stack of aims he gets once, he only does one or two damage on average.

And I think I should state that my problems with Tauntauns aren't because I'm afraid of them or have a problem playing against them; I've lost (to the best of my recollection) one game where they were invovled, and that was when I was first testing out the Clones. My problem is they have ridiculous action economy for what the are, and there is no reason for it. Little things like climbing and clambering are just dumb, as is the their ability to be so defensive. They're the biggest example of power creep in the game, and I don't understand why everyone is so on board with it.

Can I ask why a unit that can remove 1 wound per turn per move is breaking the game, assuming it gets a chance to move before it gets shot. A commando unit who splits fire gets to move, shoot two aim tokens, and gets to sit out I heavy cover with 1 suppression(* edit with hunter). Everyone mentions action economy, however I'd like to actually point out the trade off.

Creature troopers do not get cover from suppression. Other troopers getting suppressed gain light cover vs every shot against them IE they remove one non crit wound from every shot against them. Tauntauns get to remove 2 wounds total from the shots across a whole round period. So two measly wounds when a trooper would normally gain 2 or more wound mitigation across a round, the suppressed unit is getting pseudo dodge here , so do you count that in their "action economy" . Think of the dodges as damage mitigation. If you look at the da!age mitigation the occupier tank, has gained is way more "broken" as it now removes 2 wounds pre Impact from hits if sitting behind a barricade, landspeeders getting it is just as stupid.

10 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I don't get the damage output argument. He throws what, 1 red, 4 white? Without the massive stack of aims he gets once, he only does one or two damage on average.

Because with imperial tools and his cards he has a billion rerolls, plus surge to crit

10 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They're the biggest example of power creep in the game, and I don't understand why everyone is so on board with it.

Because the rebels need good units. They have Luke, and the Z6. That's really it.

Also its been stated before but the free doges make them playable, sincd they don't gain the benifit of suppression

Maybe play some more games with or against them?

Some of their 'crazy' action economy like the pivot is just so they will be playable.

They have sharpshooter so that in general use they will do some actual damage, and in their sniper hunting role they will be effective.

Absolutely if you dont anticipate facing them they will ruin your day but that can be said for a few builds now.

19 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

climb (two actions) and clamber are two different types of actions which aren't standard moves (so no dodge from them) and also they can't do that in conjuction with a move so it will be wasting its turn moving over/ on top of terrain if you terrain hug fight with tauntauns

They still get the free shot or ram, so the dodge is less important.

19 hours ago, syrath said:

Can I ask why a unit that can remove 1 wound per turn per move is breaking the game, assuming it gets a chance to move before it gets shot. A commando unit who splits fire gets to move, shoot two aim tokens, and gets to sit out I heavy cover with 1 suppression(* edit with hunter). Everyone mentions action economy, however I'd like to actually point out the trade off.

Creature troopers do not get cover from suppression. Other troopers getting suppressed gain light cover vs every shot against them IE they remove one non crit wound from every shot against them. Tauntauns get to remove 2 wounds total from the shots across a whole round period. So two measly wounds when a trooper would normally gain 2 or more wound mitigation across a round, the suppressed unit is getting pseudo dodge here , so do you count that in their "action economy" . Think of the dodges as damage mitigation. If you look at the da!age mitigation the occupier tank, has gained is way more "broken" as it now removes 2 wounds pre Impact from hits if sitting behind a barricade, landspeeders getting it is just as stupid.

1 wound per move, with a free attack and sharpshooter, yeah, little ridiculous.

Your example is more than a little disingenuous, as you're building a unit and just happen to have a scenario to make use of that build perfectly. That's situational, and not the guaranteed "2 moves, 2 dodges, 1 attack, cover reduced by 1, AND a guaranteed free crit if you ram."

If they just wanted to have the tauntaun get cover, they should have just given them cover 1. Dodges, which do stack with cover, are silly, and shouldn't have been combined with a unit with 4 health per mini.

14 hours ago, gothound said:

Because with imperial tools and his cards he has a billion rerolls, plus surge to crit

Because the rebels need good units. They have Luke, and the Z6. That's really it.

Also its been stated before but the free doges make them playable, sincd they don't gain the benifit of suppression

I still want to know where these billion of rerolls come from. He has a card that helps, once, he has hunter, which helps against a handful of units in the game, and Coordinated fire helps, once. Even factoring in keywords like spotter, he's going to have 2-3 aims at best, and that's doing everything to help him specifically out, and he's still mostly throwing white die.

And Sabine, Leia, Han, Vets, the AT-RT, Landspeeder, Fleets, etc. But hey, ignore whatever units you need to make your argument.

And do you guys usually depend on suppression for cover? 90% of the time, its a nice "whoops, I messed up, and got a unit caught in the open" situation, not my primary method of getting cover.

23 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They're the biggest example of power creep in the game, and I don't understand why everyone is so on board with it.

Some people couldn't agree that the T-47 was weaker than the sum of its parts or believe that snipers were stronger than the sum of their parts. Tauntauns seem fine to me. But I'm gonna 1) max out on tauntans regardless and 2) lose all my games no matter what, so I'm a bad person to ask.

6 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Some people couldn't agree that the T-47 was weaker than the sum of its parts or believe that snipers were stronger than the sum of their parts. Tauntauns seem fine to me. But I'm gonna 1) max out on tauntans regardless and 2) lose all my games no matter what, so I'm a bad person to ask.

And that's fair. I don't want Tauntauns to be bad by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I really not want them in the game. (Dewbacks on the other hand...) I just would have preferred them not to be objectively better than most other support units in the game, including ones that are supposed to fill the same role.

36 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

And that's fair. I don't want Tauntauns to be bad by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I really not want them in the game. (Dewbacks on the other hand...) I just would have preferred them not to be objectively better than most other support units in the game, including ones that are supposed to fill the same role.

I agree that limiting our choices is never a good idea. Having played many games over many years - I feel that making too big of an outcry is going to have a negative effect in the long run. Gaming companies (this one especially) tend to over-swing the pendulum when trying to balance. If they make the Tauntauns 105pts and limit the number of dodges and then release 6 new units in other factions that specifically deal with tautauns, then you'll never see a tauntaun again except for the newbie that doesn't know any better. This is the usual trend. This game (which is still practically new compared to most wargames), had the same thing early on with other units. I just am saying, let's show some restraint before throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I am certain that during testing that they realised how much they can do , action economy keeps getting bandied about. I'd like to ask though , try running a game with triple Tauntauns and only move them once per round (and saying the other action was used up to power their other 5 actions). I'm fairly sure they will be unplayable and if they get suppressed they then become sitting ducks.

5 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

They still get the free shot or ram, so the dodge is less important.

they get a free shot or melee hit not ram (ram requires standard full movement). in which vader gets this as well and also general grevious gets a much more dangerous version with scale.
also are you disliking dewbacks as well since they have the same abilities (minus sharpshooter and agile)?

The points break on atrts makes them a pretty competitive support choice as well now especially with a couple of astromechs. Its almost like rebels are getting stuff that works like the empire always had.

29 minutes ago, Ophion said:

The points break on atrts makes them a pretty competitive support choice as well now especially with a couple of astromechs. Its almost like rebels are getting stuff that works like the empire always had.

I can also see a case for having a (probably single) FD turret with its range 5, especially if you can get rapid reinforcements.

So of the support options I'd say all are playable except the ATRT laser cannon which because of the new cover rules on the tank isn't too likely to land any damage on it even with high impact, making it pretty useless against the occupier, the flamer and rotary are still good though.

In fact as I've said triple rotary cannons would likely to well against Tauntauns. Although I haven't seen this match up yet. Ultimately I have faith that FFG have done their testing with the unit and the counters exist for them, either that or when testing the people testing them were really bad at playing with them that they felt the need to "overbuff" them and as a result they were released too powerful. It could well be that he better counters too them are going to be round the corner (dewbacks, clones , droidekas with shields, droids even as the smaller dice pools of the Tauntauns may not be enough to eat through them) 2 full droid units in melee with them will likely trap them and roast the Tauntauns alive white dice or not.

Are they good , of course they are , are they counterable , yes they are, are they overpowered, I don't think so but firstly it's way too early to tell one way or another (something I've said earlier) but I also have faith that should it be required adjustments will be made further down the line. To me the biggest power creep has been in vehicles which was redressed with the points changes but consider this.

The new lowered cost for an AT ST and an occupier tank are similar , they are capable of similar damage, yet the tank has red saves , and can after RRG 1.51 get cover way more easily than the AT ST , it also moves faster. It's only downside is a larger and easier to access weak points. A fully kitted out Landspeeder has a similar price to the newly reduced Airspeeder yet has better damage output and again can get cover from barricades. (Which btw it can fly over). Both newer vehicles are still better than their predecessors even after the rebalance. Ultimately we shall see if the next big championships are swamped with tripletauns list and also turn out to be successful, or who knows may be triple bike may win out, or triple ATRT (Doubt we will see triple FD but who knows).

6 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

they get a free shot or melee hit not ram (ram requires standard full movement). in which vader gets this as well and also general grevious gets a much more dangerous version with scale.
also are you disliking dewbacks as well since they have the same abilities (minus sharpshooter and agile)?

Vader and grevious aren't spamable and tauntauns don't cost around 1/4 of your list for one unit. Do you get where those comparisons aren't looking at it correctly?

As for dewbacks, we'll see when they hit the table.... but I doubt they'll have the same impact due to thier much poorer ranged attack and that they have to nearly set themselves up to break from suppression the next round to get the same melee threat range.

10 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Vader and grevious aren't spamable and tauntauns don't cost around 1/4 of your list for one unit. Do you get where those comparisons aren't looking at it correctly?

As for dewbacks, we'll see when they hit the table.... but I doubt they'll have the same impact due to thier much poorer ranged attack and that they have to nearly set themselves up to break from suppression the next round to get the same melee threat range.

This was my takeaway from his comment. It just seemed so off.

59 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Vader and grevious aren't spamable and tauntauns don't cost around 1/4 of your list for one unit. Do you get where those comparisons aren't looking at it correctly?

As for dewbacks, we'll see when they hit the table.... but I doubt they'll have the same impact due to thier much poorer ranged attack and that they have to nearly set themselves up to break from suppression the next round to get the same melee threat range.

the person i quoted was talking about their free attacks which is what i was referencing when compare to the damge. yes vader and grevious cost alot and you can't spam them but they are way more dangerous then a tauntaun unit also grevious can up and down different heights and attack for free (scale) and do a free attack.
and for a cheaper unit then tauntauns who are can be dangerous. Snowtroopers with flame attack and extra trooper and Environmental gear (granted they don't get agile but they do have red defense die) and you can spam 6 of them at 83 points each. **** toss on a smoke grenade and they can move shoot and throw a smoke down for cover 1.

as for dewbacks several people already have them and they like them. they have longer range weapons (up to range 4) also they have a flame thrower they have one of the only melee weapons that actually give suppression upon a hit oh also they have armor (granted its armor 1)
and yes i know they aren't officially release but people who went to gencon already have and some people do play them at non-tournaments

I'm curious how this will affect upcoming tournaments. At the UK grad tournament Tauntauns didn't seem to break the game. Best Rebel player placed 2nd playing no Tauntauns:

- Luke Skywalker (160) + Force Push (10) + Jedi Mind Trick (5) + Emergency Stims (12) = 187
- Sabine Wren (125) + Tenacity (4) + Recon Intel (2) + The Darksaber (25) = 156
- Rebel Troopers (40) + Z-6 Trooper (22) + 2-1B Medical Droid (18) = 80
- 2x Rebel Troopers (40) + Z-6 Trooper (22) = 124
- Rebel Veterans (48) + Rebel Comms Technician (9) + HQ Uplink (10) = 67
- Medium Blaster Trooper (38) + Comms Relay (5) = 43
- 3x Rebel Commandos Strike Team (20) + DH-447 Sniper (28) = 144

The latest errata wasn't effective though.

Looking forward to the list analysis of the invader league. According to registrations rebels are more popular than last season. Question is if tauntauns are the reason and if they really can make the impact a lot of people here are suggesting. I still think that tauntauns are a good unit to bring rebels back on par but by no means broken.

6 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

I'm curious how this will affect upcoming tournaments. At the UK grad tournament Tauntauns didn't seem to break the game. Best Rebel player placed 2nd playing no Tauntauns:

- Luke Skywalker (160) + Force Push (10) + Jedi Mind Trick (5) + Emergency Stims (12) = 187
- Sabine Wren (125) + Tenacity (4) + Recon Intel (2) + The Darksaber (25) = 156
- Rebel Troopers (40) + Z-6 Trooper (22) + 2-1B Medical Droid (18) = 80
- 2x Rebel Troopers (40) + Z-6 Trooper (22) = 124
- Rebel Veterans (48) + Rebel Comms Technician (9) + HQ Uplink (10) = 67
- Medium Blaster Trooper (38) + Comms Relay (5) = 43
- 3x Rebel Commandos Strike Team (20) + DH-447 Sniper (28) = 144

The latest errata wasn't effective though.

Looking forward to the list analysis of the invader league. According to registrations rebels are more popular than last season. Question is if tauntauns are the reason and if they really can make the impact a lot of people here are suggesting. I still think that tauntauns are a good unit to bring rebels back on par but by no means broken.

Usually, tournament data is a good indicator of the power of units / unit combinations in a particular meta. However early in a new meta, players tend to bring "safe" lists to tournaments, or lists that were effective in the previous meta.

Later tournaments will give us a better indicator of what's good and what's bad. I don't think the sniper nerf snipers as much as the vehicle buff.

17 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

they get a free shot or melee hit not ram (ram requires standard full movement). in which vader gets this as well and also general grevious gets a much more dangerous version with scale.
also are you disliking dewbacks as well since they have the same abilities (minus sharpshooter and agile)?

As the others stated, Vader and Grevious cost considerably more, aren't spamable, and to get anywhere near the free actions of Tauntauns, require a lot of finagling or tapping of cards. And even then they fall short of the number of actions.

My apologies on mentioning ram, I should have just said melee attack.

And no, I dislike Dewbacks because I dislike dewbacks in general. I haven't even looked at their stats. I don't understand why every SW game ever feels the need to shoehorn in something that was seen for a handful of seconds in a completely non-combat role. At least Legion's take on Luke's landspeeder was interesting.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

I don't understand why every SW game ever feels the need to shoehorn in something that was seen for a handful of seconds in a completely non-combat role. At least Legion's take on Luke's landspeeder was interesting.

Not West End. We never got a metal dewback Banthas, tauntauns, and rancors were the only creatures for the line. Stormtrooper dewbacks would have been much more useful than a tusken raider on a bantha. Especially considering we couldn't buy blisters of Tusken Raiders, you had to poach them one at a time from the Denizens of Tatooine pack.

I am pretty sure Legion's landspeeder was inspired the by the old metal one. They gave us Luke's landspeeder, with a blaster cannon bolted to the hood. It had 3 modular crewmen for the two seats: ANH Luke, ROTJ walker pilot*, and generic-Star-Wars-guy, to use as a rebel or mercenary.

Personally I like creatures. I feel like the juxtaposition of them with laser guns and robots reinforces the theme of spirit over technology in Star Wars.

*Yes, even the empire was driving around in armed pickup trucks back then.

This may be a little off topic, but what load out are you guys giving the Landspeeder that it does more damage than the airspeeder?

Do people run them all kitted out? Rocket and blaster?

2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

And no, I dislike Dewbacks because I dislike dewbacks in general. I haven't even looked at their stats. I don't understand why every SW game ever feels the need to shoehorn in something that was seen for a handful of seconds in a completely non-combat role. At least Legion's take on Luke's landspeeder was interesting.

in the extended universe they seen lots of action heck in SWTOR they are pretty prevalent of a unit. they are very close to the dewbacks with the only unit to be able to give suppression with a melee attack (which is odd but nice).
Also Snow troopers with flames/extra trooper and smokes and maybe enviromental geear (all of this will be about 89ish points) will come close to the same thing as tauntauns and they can hit just as hard with red defense die.

8 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

This may be a little off topic, but what load out are you guys giving the Landspeeder that it does more damage than the airspeeder?

Do people run them all kitted out? Rocket and blaster?

I usually use them on the light side, only using the blaster and sometimes the rocket when I have the spare points

17 minutes ago, ResoluteHusky said:

I usually use them on the light side, only using the blaster and sometimes the rocket when I have the spare points

I've never loaded with the hard point. I think the highest i've run them is Rocket laucher, Jockey and sidekick rifle

I've had some anecdotal success but nothing staggering.

2 hours ago, buckero0 said:

This may be a little off topic, but what load out are you guys giving the Landspeeder that it does more damage than the airspeeder?

Do people run them all kitted out? Rocket and blaster?

Rocket launcher RBW Gunner WW Mk2 medium blaster BBBB 154 points for

Average DMG 5.125 wounds per grouped shot

Airspeeders average (no surge) 3.75_ cost 140 and cannot Arsenal onto the same target with a second weapon.