Yeah, I mostly agree with you, the only reason I still differ is because it's the Clone Wars and pretty much every Jedi of at least Padawan level has a lightsaber.

6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, I mostly agree with you, the only reason I still differ is because it's the Clone Wars and pretty much every Jedi of at least Padawan level has a lightsaber.

And in the clone wars the price is 2500 instead of 9k

Just now, Daeglan said:

And in the clone wars the price is 2500 instead of 9k

I already addressed that actually, the idea with the 2,500 is basically just making it a different starting option for characters who aren't advanced as 2,500 is the credits you can pick as a starting option. For advanced characters, it allows them to spend credits and still pick a starting option.

It hasn't been a problem as of yet, but my players all wound up with sabers in the pretty early stages of the game (we're just crossing the 200 earned XP threshold now). Fortunately they all seems to be focusing on other aspects of building their characters and less on COOL LASER SWORD! The only one who has been working extensively with her saber is me and my part time PC, but she's easy enough to sideline or work around as necessary.

Now that said, someone with the Jedi Tree, someone temple raised, someone a Jedi to the core vs someone trained in the wild away from the order, I see it as making story sense having a saber. I know it's unfair and I'm not sure how I would handle it if it were to come up again down the road someday - but the two really are synonymous to me. Plus there the whole "Well, what the point of having two levels of parry and reflect on the padawan tree if you can't actually use them" thing.

12 hours ago, Desslok said:

Now that said, someone with the Jedi Tree, someone temple raised, someone a Jedi to the core vs someone trained in the wild away from the order, I see it as making story sense having a saber. I know it's unfair and I'm not sure how I would handle it if it were to come up again down the road someday - but the two really are synonymous to me. Plus there the whole "Well, what the point of having two levels of parry and reflect on the padawan tree if you can't actually use them" thing.

The easy method is that the Jedi character takes having the lightsaber as what amounts to their starting option in lieu of extra XP or credits, which can also account for their sheltered upbringing in the Temple. The Force user raised in the wilds might not have a proper lightsaber, but they've got additional XP or credits to start with that the more sheltered Jedi PC doesn't have.

The concept of a Temple-raised Jedi brings to mind a different issue, namely the two talents on the universal Padawan Survivor tree (Dawn of Rebellion era sourcebook) which really should have also been on the Jedi career's Padawan tree (Rise of the Separatists era sourcebook): the Secrets of the Jedi and Secrets of the Jedi (Improved) talents. Part of padawan/initiate training is focused on how to construct one's own lightsabre, and someone who is Temple-raised should have an advantage in that area.

Interestingly, the universal Padawan Survivor tree and the Jedi career's Padawan tree share the same path layout, and they both already share the Temple Training talent.

I know one GM who has already placed the two Secrets of the Jedi talents on the Padawan tree in locations identical to where they are on the Padawan Survivor tree (replacing the talents that were there). One could possibly use other locations instead on that tree, remembering to keep the total cost the same (10 + 25 = 35 xp).

In my opinion, a starting item should not be used to temper the skills/abilities of a character. A single sunder, dropped weapon, or GM caveat, ends that bonus at any time. As early as the first encounter.

I like this game, however I have found the writing of the rules to so confusing. So, if the "discount" mentioned is the norm, then why bring it up at all? And why only have it mentioned in the Jedi portion of the book? And seriously, why would the Jedi, of all people, have LESS skill than other classes?

Anyway, I appreciate your responses. Thanks!

IIRC, all the Force-user careers have fewer starting free career/specialization skills to balance the fact that they automatically gain FR 1 for free.

Okay, here's a question for you. I know that mechanically, all it takes for someone with the Padawan tree to move onto knight is 40 points to get to the +1 force rating and then 20 points to buy the actual Knight tree. Tada! You are now a freshly minted Jedi Knight!

From a story standpoint, however, this seems kind of cheesy.

Would you guys also go "Naw man, you have to at least spend X points on some skills and get down to the Padawan tree's dedication before you could buy that" or how would you play that out?

Not really cheesy, at least not to me.

(Warning: some of the following could be construed as head-canon, and elides certain in-universe concepts with game mechanics.)

It explains why a young Jedi is now out on his/her own, risking life and limb without the company of a master. Barring horrible accidents, and situations like the Clone Wars and post-Order 66, the padawans are actually spending a lot more time with in-Temple training than field missions. They are supposed to be getting a formal education. Field missions are for knights and masters, although masters might take their padawans on expected-to-be-safe-and-simple missions. Senior padawans might be sent on simple missions alone, just so that they can demonstrate that they can handle the responsibility, but that would be just before they are expected to graduate to knight status. (See Anakin in ep. II, although that didn't really work out well.)

Knighthood is a rite of passage for understanding oneself and the Force, yes, but it's also a rite of passage to adulthood in the Jedi Order. When a master picks over the available initiates for a new padawan, it's with the expectation that the chosen padawan will learn and become a Jedi knight upon attaining adulthood, not go adventuring as soon he starts to follow the master.

By comparison, just about every other specialization expects the character to be an adult already from the start. Doctor? Marshal? Bounty Hunter? Archaeologist? Mercenary Soldier? Commodore? Ambassador? Interrogator? In most societies those would be careers/positions for adults (despite Hollywood's best attempts to make teenagers and children feel empowered by seeing themselves as protagonists in movies, etc.). So yes, I would not think it cheesy that a starting character chose Padawan then spent the starting xp necessary to gain FR +1 and start the Knight career. In CotR (p. 17), there is even the option to buy FR +1 directly (30 xp), so that a character's first specialization - if starting as a Jedi - could be Knight or General.

... Which is not to say that if playing a Jedi myself, I wouldn't want some extra earned xp at the start to justify the path to knighthood. That alone would be a reason to use the so-called "Knight-level" of play (however much extra earned xp is assigned at the start).

4 hours ago, Desslok said:

Okay, here's a question for you. I know that mechanically, all it takes for someone with the Padawan tree to move onto knight is 40 points to get to the +1 force rating and then 20 points to buy the actual Knight tree. Tada! You are now a freshly minted Jedi Knight!

From a story standpoint, however, this seems kind of cheesy.

Would you guys also go "Naw man, you have to at least spend X points on some skills and get down to the Padawan tree's dedication before you could buy that" or how would you play that out?

To be honest, there's all sorts of cheesy options that a character can pursue that existed long before the pitch to write this book was even made. Various ways to speed-run to Dedication in various specs, abuse of the auto-fire rules, even just abuse of the various crafting rules. Heck, even cheesier still than what you posted is taking advantage of the sidebar in Collapse of the Republic to buy Force Rating 2 with your starting XP, beginning play in either General or Knight, and then spending 20XP to hope back into Padawan to very quickly rocket your way up to Force Rating 3.

As with all cases of rules being abused, it's up to the GM to step in and say "No Dave, I can't permit you to do that." Which is as true for this system as it is for far more granular or crunch-heavy systems that try to regulate everything to exacting detail. There's simply no way that any rule system, no matter how well-designed, is going to be able to cover every eventually, and ultimately the designers simply have to hope that the players won't be jerks and try to cheese out the system in some vague pursuit of "winning the game."

I'd say that you're well within your rights as the GM to rule that if a PC starts out in Padawan, they're not permitted to enter the Knight spec until they've undergone the Trials, even if it's an abbreviated version of them (which was probably done a lot as the Clone Wars went on to bolster the ranks of Knights within the Order). And that likewise, if a Jedi PC starts out with a Force Rating of 2 by way of the CotR sidebar, then they can't just dive into Padawan as a second spec as they've already completed their training.

Yeah, I agree with the above. For a "rank up" if you will, it believe that it should be handled narratively, not just mechanically (buying the tree). Another thing to consider is allowing them to buy the Jedi General tree even if they are still just a padawan (as long as they have the prereq) because it is just a name, and since Padawans served as commanders during the Clone Wars many of those talents are relevant.

On 9/16/2019 at 8:37 AM, Desslok said:

Okay, here's a question for you. I know that mechanically, all it takes for someone with the Padawan tree to move onto knight is 40 points to get to the +1 force rating and then 20 points to buy the actual Knight tree. Tada! You are now a freshly minted Jedi Knight!

From a story standpoint, however, this seems kind of cheesy.

Would you guys also go "Naw man, you have to at least spend X points on some skills and get down to the Padawan tree's dedication before you could buy that" or how would you play that out?

Having the Knight spec doesn't make you a Knight.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Having the Knight spec doesn't make you a Knight.

If I was running the game, I'd say a player can't take the Knight spec until they become a Knight.

2 hours ago, Dafydd said:

If I was running the game, I'd say a player can't take the Knight spec until they become a Knight.

How's that gonna make the game better?

And do you apply the same extra requirements to Doctors, Ambassadors, Quartermasters, etc?

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

How's that gonna make the game better?

And do you apply the same extra requirements to Doctors, Ambassadors, Quartermasters, etc?

It's a question of the player and GM working together. I'd sit down with the player at the outset of the game and discuss it, we'd discuss how the the progression from Padawan to Knight would work and once they'd got the Force Rating increase to meet the Knight eligibility requirements we'd play out the final trials to attain Knighthood. It should be more than just spending some XP and printing off a new specialisation sheet.

6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Having the Knight spec doesn't make you a Knight.

And see, on one level, I agree with you. Tree names are just labels and one should not get hung up on them or give too much weight to them. Logically, intellectually, I'm totally on-board with that.

But for some reason, in this one instance, my brain refuses to comply to that train of thought. No, a character shouldn't have to medical school to buy the doctor tree - even tho in real life they totally should - and I'd never make a player do that before buying the tree (beyond maybe - maaaaaaaaybe - a simple basic "Hey, do a correspondence course, read a book, then go ahead"). I wouldn't make a person who bought the Knight tree to train a padawan through graduation before letting them buy the Master tree, but the step to becoming a Jedi is so core to the whole Star Wars experience - which is why I'm thinking of it differently, I guess.

The upside is that I'm the only one working the Jedi career at the moment (and the only one likely too for the foreseeable future), and this is all an internal battle that I have to work through.

41 minutes ago, Desslok said:

And see, on one level, I agree with you. Tree names are just labels and one should not get hung up on them or give too much weight to them. Logically, intellectually, I'm totally on-board with that.

But for some reason, in this one instance, my brain refuses to comply to that train of thought. No, a character shouldn't have to medical school to buy the doctor tree - even tho in real life they totally should - and I'd never make a player do that before buying the tree (beyond maybe - maaaaaaaaybe - a simple basic "Hey, do a correspondence course, read a book, then go ahead"). I wouldn't make a person who bought the Knight tree to train a padawan through graduation before letting them buy the Master tree, but the step to becoming a Jedi is so core to the whole Star Wars experience - which is why I'm thinking of it differently, I guess.

The upside is that I'm the only one working the Jedi career at the moment (and the only one likely too for the foreseeable future), and this is all an internal battle that I have to work through.

I see 2 tracks.

1. Rp knighthood

2. Mechanical knight spec.

The gm and player should work together on knighting the character when appropriate

1 hour ago, Dafydd said:

It's a question of the player and GM working together. I'd sit down with the player at the outset of the game and discuss it, we'd discuss how the the progression from Padawan to Knight would work and once they'd got the Force Rating increase to meet the Knight eligibility requirements we'd play out the final trials to attain Knighthood. It should be more than just spending some XP and printing off a new specialisation sheet.

None of that requires additional restrictions on the spec. You can do all that via timing the trials.

Our GM is running a clone wars era game in which all 3 of the PC's are Jedi. None of us will be taking any spec that doesn't fit or potentially come up in game. None of us will take Knight or Master until the game story presents itself.

Mechanically, no there is no restriction, but IMHO, this is more than a mechanical decision. Would it be useful? Duh. But our table believes in organic growth. In our looooong running Rebellion game, one PC had been wanting a specific spec for months, but refused to take it until recently because he couldn't justify it in game. Also the reason we have very few skills at 5. Just doesn't feel right, but would be **** helpful!. LOL *shrug* YMMV

Okay, now HERE'S a question for you all. I bet nobody has noticed on the Padawan tree, in the bottom row, the talent Sincerest Flattery is listed as 15 points, not 25. Now clearly being in the bottom row between two 25 pointers, this is a typo. But that's Rules As Intended, not Rules As Written. The talent is clearly marked 15 points, so that's what it should cost.

So the question I have for you guys, which way would you rule? As this is my tree and my talent, I don't feel I can be objective (I wants me some 10 point discount!), I'll leave it up to you guys as the final judge.

8 hours ago, Desslok said:

Okay, now HERE'S a question for you all. I bet nobody has noticed on the Padawan tree, in the bottom row, the talent Sincerest Flattery is listed as 15 points, not 25. Now clearly being in the bottom row between two 25 pointers, this is a typo. But that's Rules As Intended, not Rules As Written. The talent is clearly marked 15 points, so that's what it should cost.

So the question I have for you guys, which way would you rule? As this is my tree and my talent, I don't feel I can be objective (I wants me some 10 point discount!), I'll leave it up to you guys as the final judge.

Have you sent an email to customer service to ask? Because there is also Rules As Ruled on by FFG

I did, but I only found it last night, so there's not been time to get a response. I figured I'd ask you guys in the meantime.

Go with rules as intended, not always as written. For example, the AT-AP's primary weapon--the heavy mass driver cannon--is listed as doing 8 personal scale damage with Breach 4.

If every other tree has tier 5 talent listed as 25 XP and this one had it as 15 XP, then it was a typo. As far as I know, there isn't a single instance of intentionally mispriced talents.

Of course it's 25 pts. Like, why even act as if there's any real ambiguity there?