I've narrowed down my possible lists for an extended tournament in a few weeks. What do you think about these lists?

1. Hatchet Man (I can take off advanced torps for a bigger bid)
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z167XWW29WWWY161XW113W136WW104W139W134WY173XW113WW105&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

2. Inquisitor Man
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z167XWW29WWWY169X75W113W99Y173XW113WW105&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

3. Five ship FO
https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z243XWWW182WW105Y259X186WWWWY259X186WWWWY262X181WWY261XW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

4. Kylo and Bros
https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z236XWWWY259XW182WWWY259XW182WWWY242XWWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

All are good lists. I have a lot of practice in on Hatchet Man and Inquisitor Man.

I'm a big First Order stan, but they can be played in Hyperspace, so I'd rather fly extended lists (both FO lists seem fine--not 100% how I'd build them, but I think it's hard to build actually bad FO lists). I think I'd find the Grand Inquisitor more fun than Vynder, but I also think Vynder probably performs better.

If I was thinking about tweaks...

* Diamond Boron Missiles over Proton Torpedoes is significantly cheaper for an almost-sorta-not-quite 4-dice attack for Vynder. 3 dice + 1 unmodded if you do the splash (which also has potential against swarm ships). That'd open up 7 points for any small toys you might want, or a bigger bid. There are trade-offs to be sure--it's a little worse mathematically than Proton Torpedoes, and there's a chance you don't hit. However, I think I'd rather have DBM and APT than just regular Proton Torpedoes.

* For Inquisitor only: Director Krennic over Emperor Palatine on Jendon. Designating (probably) the Grand Inquisitor as Optimized Prototype helps him push damage without missiles, maybe (although, Krennic's lock requirements are tricky enough that the situation where it makes sense probably doesn't come up often... maybe also adding ST-321 would work...). Also, Jendon can actually take a lock for himself with Krennic riding along, and giving the shuttle a bit more of an early-game punch is nice. I love Palp, and flew a lot of Palp Defenders in early 2e, so I know he can be quite good, but he seems like he grants more power to a list which doesn't have Force users. But Sense and Vader have the potential to be Force hungry, so Palp does seem nice.

So basically, two tweaks where there's a decent chance they don't make the list any better. Just seems like food for thought as much as anything.

I like hatchetman list, or else go with what @theBitterFig said about krennic and grand inquisitor, to push damage through on shield opponents with his two dice.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm a big First Order stan, but they can be played in Hyperspace, so I'd rather fly extended lists (both FO lists seem fine--not 100% how I'd build them, but I think it's hard to build actually bad FO lists). I think I'd find the Grand Inquisitor more fun than Vynder, but I also think Vynder probably performs better.

If I was thinking about tweaks...

* Diamond Boron Missiles over Proton Torpedoes is significantly cheaper for an almost-sorta-not-quite 4-dice attack for Vynder. 3 dice + 1 unmodded if you do the splash (which also has potential against swarm ships). That'd open up 7 points for any small toys you might want, or a bigger bid. There are trade-offs to be sure--it's a little worse mathematically than Proton Torpedoes, and there's a chance you don't hit. However, I think I'd rather have DBM and APT than just regular Proton Torpedoes.

* For Inquisitor only: Director Krennic over Emperor Palatine on Jendon. Designating (probably) the Grand Inquisitor as Optimized Prototype helps him push damage without missiles, maybe (although, Krennic's lock requirements are tricky enough that the situation where it makes sense probably doesn't come up often... maybe also adding ST-321 would work...). Also, Jendon can actually take a lock for himself with Krennic riding along, and giving the shuttle a bit more of an early-game punch is nice. I love Palp, and flew a lot of Palp Defenders in early 2e, so I know he can be quite good, but he seems like he grants more power to a list which doesn't have Force users. But Sense and Vader have the potential to be Force hungry, so Palp does seem nice.

So basically, two tweaks where there's a decent chance they don't make the list any better. Just seems like food for thought as much as anything.

Something like this?

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z169X75W113W99Y173XW113WW105Y167XWW28WWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

10 point bid seems strong. Per pinkbrainmatter: 94% chance of I6 moving last

9 hours ago, RunnerAZ said:

I've narrowed down my possible lists for an extended tournament in a few weeks. What do you think about these lists?

1. Hatchet Man (I can take off advanced torps for a bigger bid)
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z167XWW29WWWY161XW113W136WW104W139W134WY173XW113WW105&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

2. Inquisitor Man
https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z167XWW29WWWY169X75W113W99Y173XW113WW105&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

3. Five ship FO
https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z243XWWW182WW105Y259X186WWWWY259X186WWWWY262X181WWY261XW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

4. Kylo and Bros
https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z236XWWWY259XW182WWWY259XW182WWWY242XWWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

All are good lists. I have a lot of practice in on Hatchet Man and Inquisitor Man.

I just played a tournament yesterday with Hatchetman and went 5-0 (3 200 point haves but all 5 very decisive). Three only difference with your list was I had Marksmanship on Vynder. I slow played and engaged on my side of the table, on the corner where I placed my astroids where I wanted them. Placed Jendon at an angle and Vynder in front, bumped, then a few turns if 1 s and 0s.

Another strategy that worked almost every game is that I used Jendon to lock on a decoy Target. When it came to the engagement turn the opponent would slow play the targeted ship and set up a kill box where he would think Vader and Vynder would go to shoot at him. But I would go the other way (coordinate a lock on a Target on the opposite flank for Vynder, then Slam, and Vader does Vader)

This caught my opponents off guard and 4/5 games I had outmaneuvered the opponent and killed off a ship in the first engagement or two. And Vader would always get in being. The list is great and the Jendon decoy lock worked great. I would recommend it.

Good luck

6 hours ago, RunnerAZ said:

Something like this?

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z169X75W113W99Y173XW113WW105Y167XWW28WWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

10 point bid seems strong. Per pinkbrainmatter: 94% chance of I6 moving last

Yeah, or maybe also ST-321 so that Jendon can Coordinate/Lock in the midgame.

Just seems like something worth feeling out in a practice game or two. Palp is pretty easy to have a handle on, how he works, etc. 6 point bid with ST-321/Krennic is also pretty reasonable.

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, or maybe also ST-321 so that Jendon can Coordinate/Lock in the midgame.

Just seems like something worth feeling out in a practice game or two. Palp is pretty easy to have a handle on, how he works, etc. 6 point bid with ST-321/Krennic is also pretty reasonable.

So my local meta is pretty swarm heavy (Phoenix/Mesa) - does this change your opinion/thoughts?

I tend to win on the games I range control and bail out early/often with Vader, or bait a Vynder chase.

Thats also why I am drawn to the 5 ship FO list, since that QD has afterburners and can act like a budget Vader, though he isn't as good of an end game piece.

Boron Missiles Vynder is pretty good into Swarms

7 hours ago, RunnerAZ said:

So my local meta is pretty swarm heavy (Phoenix/Mesa) - does this change your opinion/thoughts?

I tend to win on the games I range control and bail out early/often with Vader, or bait a Vynder chase.

Thats also why I am drawn to the 5 ship FO list, since that QD has afterburners and can act like a budget Vader, though he isn't as good of an end game piece.

Maybe. My gut says Krennic would work out better against aces or other high-agility stuff, and maybe not so much against swarmy stuff. Palp's extra force charge probably helps out when defending against a larger number of attackers.

Also, Boron Missiles Vynder, with Palp support, sounds good to me against swarms.

And again, First Order are a faction I love. I might lean a bit more toward the Kylo list, but that's me. I don't dislike the TIE/fo, but love the TIE/sf so much more that it's hard for me not to find the points to upgrade. Just a personal style thing. I guess it depends on practice. FO aren't too hard of a faction (a lot of solid, independent ships), but fair factions like FO need practice to be good.

My vote goes to Hatchetman - Vynder and Vader are 2 consistently, shockingly effective pilots, and with Palp Jendon for backup, they become even better. GrInky is less hard hitting and less survivable than Vynder, the 5 FOs seem less punchy all together - too much dice variance, and there's just something about the 4 FOs that doesn't click in my head like the first list does