Not looking for suggestions to "use xyz list to counter xyz list" type discussion here.
Only looking for general in game on the table strategy to make the matchups a little less difficult or better prepared.

Some of what is listed below includes reposts from other threads or notes I already had.

Might be good timing to collect things into a "Meta Counter" thread as things begin to settle.
Feel free to add your own breakdowns and call out anything thats 100% wrong. I'll probably post more later.

Torkil Cartel

• Get a first engage from outside of Torkils Arc to chip some damage in before he starts to I0 things
• Ideally you can init kill a Cartel early but Torkil is the main target here. Without Torkil the list gets average fast.
• Be aware that Seevor is a trouble maker so if you have a chance at a quick kill on him take it.
• Cartels at R1 throw 4 dice, self explanatory but it matters. R1 of them is a bad place to be.
• Rocks are your friends, make the Torkil Cartel have to navigate them or deal with them after the first engage at least
• A straight joust trading shots with the entire thing typically ends badly, try something else.

Vader Soontir+

• Lots of variations on this, key is to not allow both i6s into the end game untouched.
• If all they offer up is the not i6 stuff then your on the clock to destroy those targets fast enough to have enough pieces left to deal with the i6s
• Vader is not a fully mobile arc dodger ( "yet", precog soon ) but his damage is crazy consistent. The longer he is on the table the more MOV you will bleed.
• Be aware that with burners ( and he should have burners ) Vader can fly through rocks, boost and action with his ability.
• Threaten the flank without "committing" to it. So you can switch targets if the Flanker picks its escape route.
• Catch Bumps or Land Close to the i6 things before they move, inhabit the space where their slowest moves go while the rest of your list threatens the faster options.
• Attack from multiple angles ideally from a far enough distance/angle that denies single reposition arc dodging.
• Cast a net and prey your allowed to focus fire (*Hint: Most Ace Players Opt Into Nets )
• Threaten Flanking Aces, make them choose their escape route
• Force a favorable joust ( these are tricky to engineer as the vast majority of Aces are built to win partial jousts )
• Use Rocks to restrict their escape or repostion options ( Fully Execute rules + Gas Clouds make this way less useful )
• Set up locks turns you know you have no chance to shoot them so the turns you do matter more, usually good to do this the turn you move to block

Tavson+

• Tavson is vulnerable to in game counter play. More so than most other good ships in the meta.
• Don't Shoot Tavson, its a darwin test
• Try to Avoid Tavson's arc, he only has one and cant reposition
• Gas Clouds are dumb but rocks/debri exist, use them. Make Tavson work for his joust or flank ( i.e. Work through rocks ).
• Get Behind Tavson and he becomes mostly irrelevant.
• Take pot shots at Tavson from out of arc only if he wont coordinate something thats also shooting you or jam you before you defend
• Destroy everything besides Tavson first. Almost Always unless the FO player did something really weird on approach.
• Your win condition can be Tavson on half points end of game, you dont need to destroy everything just play to 75 min if you need to.
• If you are using an Aces list you start the game with a massive advantage ( even with Phasma ). You just have to opt into that advantage.
• If you are using a Swarm List, especially 1 with 2 dice attacks be aware that Re-Enforced tavson says nope to alot of damage. More reasons why you shouldnt be shooting him.
• If you are running a Rebel Beef 4 ship list make sure you dont run this in a block formation, your advantage becomes your multiple arcs vs Tavsons 1 big arc. Dont get into a Big 4 ship box Arc v Big Arc battle.
• Dont block and then shoot tavson that defeats the purpose. Block him and shoot something else. 4 dice without mods isnt something you need to worry about.
• Things that hard counter Tavson involve mobility.
  • Anything that can boost
  • Anything that can k turn
  • Anything with more than 1 arc or a rotate
  • Anything that can approach out of formation ( Basically everything )
  • Anything that can perma block Tavson ( U-Wings are excellent at this, not just to prevent mods but to prevent arc on target ).
• 100% dodging Tavson is possible but not necessary to win consistently.
• Important not to take the "dont shoot tavson" advice to literally.
• Allowing a full multi round Tavson flank isnt a great strategy either, but thats where rocks and mobility come into play. It is after all a game.

Sinker Swarm

• Buckle up for 75 minutes
• Sinker will turn away from combat to set up rerolls if necessary
• The entire sinker swarm is a threat even at R3. Focus Reroll on 2 dice is dangerous to pretty much everything besides a Re-enforced ship or 3 force/hate Force User.
• Gas Clouds changes the above statement considerably. If you have an ace dont be afraid to park behind a cloud. Just have `12% of a plan for the following turn if you do.
• Decide your target ( Burn down Sinker or his pals )
• If they have Ric as filler, Ric will 5 straight into boxes and yell "Its a Trap!" dont take the bait unless you blocked him. He will regen and flank you after losing a couple shields.
• If they have a second Arc 170, they will offer it up as a sacrifice. Kill it fast enough and its ok to target it. It becomes a serious blocker after the 1st engage.
• Republic players K-Turn alot with Arcs for some reason
• Rock Setup is really key here. The Torrents dials are heavily restricted so you can control the direction of their arcs with obstacles.
• Recycled engages looping around a cluster of obstacles work pretty well.
• Dont take to long to engage, you need every minute on the clock.
• Something in your list will be destroyed. End of story. Make sure its the "correct" thing. I.E. not the thing you need most end game.
• As with most "swarmy" lists you want the first engage to start putting damage into something while almost entirely outside of the giant damage blobs arcs.
• Helps stack init kills for following turns.
• Half pts requires 3 dmg cards on a torrent. Keep that in mind! Splitting fire and collecting half pts can win you the scramble drill end game.

Sear Swarm

• They will offer up 1 vulture as tribute sear fuel. TA175 triggers prevent Double Init Kill Turns.
• R3 is a very tricky place to trade against these. Networked + 3 Agility = The Clock Belongs to Roger Roger
• Pretty sure destroying 2 vultures within the same init window is helpful
• Similar to above Sinker Swarm comments you want an initial partial engage to chip in some damage.
• The trick is to take 1-2 hull off the designated sear sacrifice, so you can destroy it quick next rd and put damage into the next vulture target.
• You want to chain "vulture destroyed" + "next vulture loses 1-2 hull" turns
• Dont take to long to engage, you will run out of time.
• Often this will park 1 or 2 vultures on a "central pivot rock". Combat will toilet bowl around that area of the board.
• Targeting Sear first is typically a mistake, despite the fact that it increases the offense/defense of the entire list.
• Typically you will "feel" like your losing mid/end game, but your not. At any time these vultures can start to pop and pts will swing.
• Vultures have "awkward" dials that tend to want to hard turn. Take advantage of that. There are angles & ranges where they cant easily turn in on targets.
• If the list has probes, destroy the probe droids before the turn that everything would attempt to lock.
• If two probes on are on the table things get a little more complicated ( I dont know the best answer in these situations, I think its shoot the vultures )
• If a giant pile of target locks end up on a thing...keep that thing the **** out of as many arcs as possible.
• Gas Clouds make Vultures feel inadequate.
• Vultures typically set up "walls" instead of boxes. Attack a side of the wall and try to have obstacles in the way for when the other side of the wall tries to collapse in on your ships.
• Attacking from multiple angles helps considerably.
• Keep in mind though that Ta175 says "gains calculate" which means Vultuers that K-Turn or Talon or Stress are still a serious threat.

Ketsu Old T+

• Ketsu can tractor at Range 1-3 if he lands a hit on offense
• Do not engage near rocks or obstacles, turn zero rock placement matters
• Try to create big wide open spaces and engineer an initial engage there
• Ketsu wants to keep the arc facing forward, take advantage of that ( no boost or roll )
• Absolutely do not be R1 of Ketsu in its forward arc, if you are you deserve what happens next
• Ketsu can tractor friendly ships, this is very useful pre-first engage to adjust Old T's trajectory before the "fang fightas gotta go fasta" turn.
• If they give up Old T at Range 2-3 for some reason, take some pot shots at Old T
• Old T tends to function as this lists "End Game" get rid of him

Republic Regen Aces

• General tactics against Aces apply, though Jedi are much capable of dealing with blocks, rocks, and being forced to reposition.
• Generally speaking I find it more valuable not to block jedi. Potential shots are precious and rare. Take them if you can get them.
• Which ever Jedi have regen will accept seemingly bad trades and lock alot.
• See Regen Ric Sinker Swarm Comments ( He will go in the box )
• Take meaningful shots at whatever they give you I guess.
• Dont chase and get flanked later without a plan.
• Go all in at the thing(s) that dont have Regen to get "guaranteed" points without splitting fire.
• Use Debri so Jedi have fewer panic escape routes. Block Ric because you can.
• Forcing them to take the escape route over a rock + boost + regen is still technically helpful.
• Anticipate the sloop or kturn instead of regen disengage.
• Shoot the Jedi that has fewer force charges, keep pressure on so they cant regen the force.
• Save your end game ships for end game.
• Sounds simple but you dont want to be trading pts on your end game pieces because you cant get them back.
• Dont pretend that Regen Obi or Ani or Ric is on half, they are not, not yet. Dont count half pts until you have it for sure.
• Some Jedi players will keep all 3-4 pieces "close" together. If that happens you can put their entire list in a box and split fire as things disengage to regen.
• Big picture matchups against Regen Jedi are about "favorable" mini engagements.
• You know that they will typically not be fighting with all their guns every round.
• Key is to make those turns unfavorable to them even if they "earn" a free flank in the process.

Placeholders ( Pick One )

• Big Deal+
• Lateral Fortresses ( Quad Vipers, Trip Phantoms+ )
• Redline+
• Palp Jendon Alpha ( Trip Inq, 2x Inq Soontir etc. )
• Rebel Leia Beef ( UUUU, Biggs, Cassian )
• Fat Han+
• Scum Control Jank
• AAAAA
• SFSFSFSFSFSF
• Rebel Trench Run ( 2x Torp or EE+ )
• Roger Roger Roger Roger Roger Roger Dooku
• Sloane+
• Boba Guri
• Sun Fac+
• Precog or Supernatural or Advanced Sensors Aces+
• Snapshot Swarms

Decent topic.

I'll try and add some more meta lists later

Debris is also good against Tavson and things that put stress on him, because he cannot use an action after suffering damage while stressed. Also Upsilon has limited number of blue maneuvers, only 1 and 2 straight and 2 banks so it's easy to stay behind him when he is stressed.

4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

If the list has probes, destroy the probe droids before the turn that everything would attempt to lock.

The problem is that the probe will move twice (speed 3 for deploy at the end step and speed 2 in the device phase) and if they're I1 they move before you to get the locks in the activation phase. You can easily end with a lot of locks without any opportunity to intervene.

Just now, MasterShake2 said:

The problem is that the probe will move twice (speed 3 for deploy at the end step and speed 2 in the device phase) and if they're I1 they move before you to get the locks in the activation phase. You can easily end with a lot of locks without any opportunity to intervene.

So whats the solution?

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

So whats the solution?

...get locked? I dunno, I'm not Galen Erso, I didn't put a thermal exhaust port into this.

I've seen people try to slow roll the first droid, but they always get caught by the second. Some people just try to rush the droids before they can lock. Locals have been trying to play around these things for the last month, but they have so much movement before you get to respond that even a minor slip up in placement gets all the locks on the board. Rushing seems like a better strat, but the droids have to not see it coming and you can't control the engage, so you're just hoping you can win a straight up fight.

8 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

...get locked? I dunno, I'm not Galen Erso, I didn't put a thermal exhaust port into this.

I've seen people try to slow roll the first droid, but they always get caught by the second. Some people just try to rush the droids before they can lock. Locals have been trying to play around these things for the last month, but they have so much movement before you get to respond that even a minor slip up in placement gets all the locks on the board. Rushing seems like a better strat, but the droids have to not see it coming and you can't control the engage, so you're just hoping you can win a straight up fight.

Iv found that it has to over extend to set the lock turn. Requires a fair bit of stutter stepping and aggression though cant just stay back and wait. The second one presents the most problems.

Im not sure I agree that you cant control the engage or have to hope to win a straight up fight. That seems 100% inaccurate.

Vassal mapping this might help. Im sure we can sort out the best options.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Iv found that it has to over extend to set the lock turn. Requires a fair bit of stutter stepping and aggression though cant just stay back and wait. The second one presents the most problems.

Im not sure I agree that you cant control the engage or have to hope to win a straight up fight. That seems 100% inaccurate.

You don't have to overextend at all, just 2 K with a Hyena, the Hard 2 clear stress (can even roll -> lock if the enemy is too close). If you try to rush them, you have to be basically able to shoot their DZ turn 2 otherwise it doesn't stop the droids from getting locks and the droids have no compelling reason to fly towards you for the first 2 turns (after that, they engage whenever they feel like it). In this scenario, it's hard to play a meaningful bait game and still apply needed pressure. I saw Kylo try to do this and he died on turn 2.

We are apparently failing the Roger Roger Darwin test. Wat do?

I don't think precog works with Vader all too well, if I remember the restrictions right

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't think precog works with Vader all too well, if I remember the restrictions right

Why? Setup Lock early. Now you have infinite actions + boost and premovement.

Action #1: Precog Boost or Roll

Action #2: Fcs Reroll

Action #3: Piles of Calculates that Recharge Each Turn

Precog says you can't take anymore actions during your activation

Xwing 2nd Ed also has timing such that you have to fully complete the action before flowing into the next. Fairly certain you only get the precog move and nothing else

Don't think Vader's the guy for it, unless it's cheap enough to use as a fallback

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Precog says you can't take anymore actions during your activation

Xwing 2nd Ed also has timing such that you have to fully complete the action before flowing into the next. Fairly certain you only get the precog move and nothing else

I dont count actions taken. Its abilities available. Vader has Rerolls, Dice mods offense and defense, and boost or roll with precog. Seems amazing.

Depends on cost. Could easily be half the price of supernatural, which definitely ain't nothing

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Depends on cost. Could easily be half the price of supernatural, which definitely ain't nothing

It better be near Supernatural Costs. But thats not what this thread is for. Any tips on how to manage Probe Droids?

16 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

We are apparently failing the Roger Roger Darwin test. Wat do?

Having played a ton of probe droids, and against it a few times, the answer is usually to put the locked thing in a position that it's not getting shot by everything with clear shots. Putting a gas cloud between it and the swarm is the dream, but tanking up at r3 with evade token or maybe double/passive defense mods is cool, too.

Dodging some of the arcs and init killing 1-2 droids that do have locked shots.

Vultures have a pretty good dial on the approach, but you can punish them if they stress the round before.

Often just letting me get my locks way out of combat is fine. I still have to catch the thing for it to matter. Or I can switch locks but each lock taken on the engage round is one less calculate. If I have TA, then that's fine. But depending on initiative bands in play TA can be limited in effectiveness given good target priority.

Stuff like that

EDIT: this is assuming sear swarm with a bunch much of 2-dice primaries. If it's ESCs then obviously don't opt into a r3 engage where I get to ignore range and shoot you with 15-18 double modded attack dice

EDIT AGAIN: also keep in mind that paying for probe droids is painful in a sear swarm. It means you either (incorrectly) went to 7 total ships or (maybe correctly) dropped everyone to I1 or (questionably) dropped your struts. Each of those choices weakens what's behind the massive lock count.

Honorable joust

3 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Honorable joust

Probably better than waiting 15-20 minutes to remember your honor?

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Probably better than waiting 15-20 minutes to remember your honor?

Correct

15 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Correct

Why is the correct answer always the sad one?

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Why is the correct answer always the sad one?

Knowledge is a burden.

14 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Why is the correct answer always the sad one?

"What's the plan?"

"There is no plan, we're losing"

@MasterShake2 Did some testing last night.Counter Options vs Probe Droids:

1. “Allow” the locks and have that thing not participate in the first engage. Chip away pts from multiple angles over the long haul. Not easy and very list dependent. Token stackers and mobile things are pretty good at it though. Dangerous game after the first couple rds but doable. This is a legit strategy though depending on the rest of your list. Especially if they lock your end game piece instead of the things your willing to trade anyway. Basically that end game thing probably wasnt going to 100% participate anyway.

2. Play aggressive get up in the vultures grill before they can set up their locks and calculates. Ta175 will still offer mods but its not guaranteed that a vulture will pop. Means the vulture player has to choose between a lock or calculates. They will pick calculates probably. Though the board state would have to make your intentions clear.

3. Can stutter step kill the first probe then engage the vultures. Definitely possible if your attacking around their damage blob giant arc wall. Not easy.

4. Gas Clouds are comically effective

5. For some reason there are alot of second engagements where the vultures will struggle mightly to get all arcs on the same target. That leads to super unfavorable trades. Im pretty sure this is a combination of the dial and the fact that struts arent 100% the same as collusion detector. It means if you get a decent first combat partial engage its super possible to get into range 1 for the second engage and not actually be in that bad of a situation. So yea maybe the best possible answer is just to let them fight. As usual the definition of “joust” vs “not joust” is fuzzy.

Some lists can alpha vultures fast enough to make them hate the faction again.

Some lists out right can say nope to two dice attacks. Sear helps but it burns calcs and doesnt often line up more than once or twice a rd.

Some lists have enough ships in them that they can just fight and trade and win a undeclared final salvo type game.

More testing needed

Playing against vulture lists is fun. Nice to have a different puzzle to solve besides a box formation ( which is one of the easiest things in the game to counter ). The wall building makes for super interesting board states. Only issue is staying very aware that their win condition improves by the minute. Do not delay that engage to long or your playing with fire.

Its common to hear complaints (iv made them) that ocho takes more than 75 min to kill. Trick is i think as the opponent you have a ton of say in how that plays out. Full destruction is mostly not an option, but it doesnt need to be for you to control the outcome. Its all about timing and correct aggression.

27 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@MasterShake2 Did some testing last night.Counter Options vs Probe Droids:

1. “Allow” the locks and have that thing not participate in the first engage. Chip away pts from multiple angles over the long haul. Not easy and very list dependent. Token stackers and mobile things are pretty good at it though. Dangerous game after the first couple rds but doable. This is a legit strategy though depending on the rest of your list. Especially if they lock your end game piece instead of the things your willing to trade anyway. Basically that end game thing probably wasnt going to 100% participate anyway.

2. Play aggressive get up in the vultures grill before they can set up their locks and calculates. Ta175 will still offer mods but its not guaranteed that a vulture will pop. Means the vulture player has to choose between a lock or calculates. They will pick calculates probably. Though the board state would have to make your intentions clear.

3. Can stutter step kill the first probe then engage the vultures. Definitely possible if your attacking around their damage blob giant arc wall. Not easy.

4. Gas Clouds are comically effective

5. For some reason there are alot of second engagements where the vultures will struggle mightly to get all arcs on the same target. That leads to super unfavorable trades. Im pretty sure this is a combination of the dial and the fact that struts arent 100% the same as collusion detector. It means if you get a decent first combat partial engage its super possible to get into range 1 for the second engage and not actually be in that bad of a situation. So yea maybe the best possible answer is just to let them fight. As usual the definition of “joust” vs “not joust” is fuzzy.

Some lists can alpha vultures fast enough to make them hate the faction again.

Some lists out right can say nope to two dice attacks.

Some lists have enough ships in them that they can just fight and trade and win a undeclared final salvo type game.

More testing needed

Playing against vulture lists is fun.

The lists we're specifically looking at locally has no TA-175 or Sear and Alpha's exclusively with 3 dice attacks (7 total pieces of ordnance). Also, because it hits so hard, it generally spreads locks to avoid overkill especially because most of the ordinance doesn't need locks to fire making atttempts to "deny" the mods really ineffective (ships that are fighting still lose the joust to ESCs and the droids just have locks to kill the "rabbit" later, especially if they reload). Only a few players are really picking it up as most are favoring Sear, so it's not meta currently, but it does present a different paradigm.

A Droid player shouldn't be "giving" an opponent gas clouds. We've played it a few times and, because the droids only benefit from more time i.e. setup, they're not pressured to engage where they don't want to. They casually wave, get their locks and look for position. It's not that gas clouds will never be a factor, but so far, my observations have been that there's almost never a compelling reason for droids to engage around gas clouds. In that respect, I view the advantage of gas clouds as almost area denial i.e. you don't expect to work or provide a meaningful benefit, but you can turn droids away from parts of the table with them.

The droids also present an interesting challenge because their, I guess I'd call it a "twitch dial", is very good at making really dramatic moves fast (hard turns and linked rolls, then more hard turns to clear stress). This can lead to setups that, if not properly planned, make it very hard to disengage from the droids effectively. Comboed with the "nodes" i.e. droids on rocks and it's a matchup that it's hard to understand without sufficient experience (although that's almost a blanket statement on CIS in general).

Overall, though, it is good advice.

EDIT: Also, the missile droids fair very well into Sear droids. Their alpha is significantly better and TA-175 never does anything when you're all I1.

9 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

A Droid player shouldn't be "giving" an opponent gas clouds. We've played it a few times and, because the droids only benefit from more time i.e. setup, they're not pressured to engage where they don't want to. They casually wave, get their locks and look for position. It's not that gas clouds will never be a factor, but so far, my observations have been that there's almost never a compelling reason for droids to engage around gas clouds. In that respect, I view the advantage of gas clouds as almost area denial i.e. you don't expect to work or provide a meaningful benefit, but you can turn droids away from parts of the table with them.

I always try to look for ways to exploit a stalling opponent. The droids arent phantoms so they cant lateral fort you. The can 1 turn roll, or continue on a forward path k turn and blue turn to clear. They setup a weird kinda stalling fort but its not unapproachable.

The key for me with vulture lists now is just a partial first engage followed by a close in engage where some portion of their list cant focus fire. Thats been seeming largely acheivable regardless of what the swarm player is doing.