From today's Legion article, at the end:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/9/5/tactical-maintenance/

Quote

Finally, a brief note on the implementation of these changes: The printed points values on the cards will remain unchanged and will not be altered when these cards are reprinted or issued in future products. These original points values are designed to be used by new players and by casual players who prefer an unchanging game mode that they don’t have to keep track of. Official tournaments will be conducted utilizing the adjusted competitive play points values. Errata (such as changes to weapon ranges) applies to both modes of play, since in many cases errata is necessary for the rules to function correctly.

At this time, we do not intend to create an app to track and manage these changes, as it is our hope that they will be kept to a very manageable in number and frequency.

Makes me wonder if FFG is a little sad how things worked out for 2.0 XWM's "Points and App," since this is basically the opposite of this game's reboot.

They've stated publicly that the app ended up being more expensive and more maintenance than they were happy with.

The solution is points in a PDF and neither on cards nor in a first party app, but inevitably someone fails to read "want to build a squad? go here and do XYZ!" in the box insert or insists that their ability to comment online is wholly despite lacking any ability or willingness to print off a PDF or use a third party website and then gets mad (tm) on the internet so there's no way to win.

I hope not. While the App could be better, being able to adjust points seems to have been very successful with 2.0.

And I'd think that FFG is kinda wishing that they had gone the Points and App route from the beginning on Legion, since they are now having to adjust points anyway, but with no way to make it easy on the players or tournament organizers.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

They've stated publicly that the app ended up being more expensive and more maintenance than they were happy with.

That's because they went with a company that didn't do a good job on the app. A better designed app would have made things much easier and take much less maintenance.

Seriously, the app and flexible points are the future, and they're daft if they backslide now.

Not doing their app terribly is the next step, not not doing it at all.

Where does the OP quote come from?

Andrew Novaro spoke about the X-Wing app and FFG's lessons learned in his AMA

The only regret that I can think of might be not interviewing some of the people who made online apps for free? I said it before, but in Stellaris (PC Game), when the devs saw a guy make a mod that drastically improved the AI and that everyone used it, they did something that made a lot of sense: they hired him

They really ought to have a source for downloading PDF files with printable updated cards.

Guild Ball allows you to download and print the latest versions of all the player cards, with a different printable PDF for each guild.

Warmachine/Hordes has a database where you can select whatever cards you happen to want, and it will automatically generate a PDF of printable cards for you.

Quote

The printed points values on the cards will remain unchanged and will not be altered when these cards are reprinted or issued in future products. These original points values are designed to be used by new players and by casual players who prefer an unchanging game mode that they don’t have to keep track of. Official tournaments will be conducted utilizing the adjusted competitive play points values.

This is the most asinine thing I've ever read from a game company. Points values should have meaning. I mean, games don't have to be balanced, players can just put whatever they want on a table and have fun, but bifurcating a system so that two players could meet up to play and have lists with entirely different points values for all there stuff is... frankly, really ******* stupid.

//

I can understand that the app itself isn't well-liked, maybe had cost over-runs. PDFs are fairly cheap, though. It's not hard to adjust values on the points spreadsheets--those are great. It's not hard to have PDFs of what the valid cards are. That's just part of playing the game for a lot of different games. This is all some foolish stubbornness from FFG that's pretty disappointing.

IMO They have misjudged the costs of developing an app.

I don't know how they will implement the huge ships costs in all of this, and all the battlefield/missions from the cardpacks. This will need major changes. YASB will have to do a lot of work also.

I think it's a good choice of not putting points on a card. Simply putting the points/upgrades of a downloadable PDF would be sufficient. FFG knows that the community will create some online squad builders to help them.

They should just pay for YASB and make that one official. I’m sure he would charge less than their app developers and even if he didn’t his product is just insanely more user friendly.

If they have any regrets though I bet they regret not putting legion into the same format. Those are some heavy swings.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

This is the most asinine thing I've ever read from a game company. Points values should have meaning. I mean, games don't have to be balanced, players can just put whatever they want on a table and have fun, but bifurcating a system so that two players could meet up to play and have lists with entirely different points values for all there stuff is... frankly, really ******* stupid.

Not so. This is exactly what I expected and exactly what to expect for Armada as well. The fact is that X-Wing doesn’t have accurate points on the cards and neither do Legion or Armada. The only difference, then, is that Legion and Armada have a reasonable approximation of accurate values for casual play (like our quick-build).

I don’t see the problem at all. If they were to do a reprint every time there’s a point adjustment, that’s way more upkeep than anyone cares about especially in repurchases.

Printed points are decent approximations. Balanced points are in PDFs and List Builders. As it has been and ever shall be.

My only disappointment is that the two systems run on the same scale. I would expect the official points to be doubled or halved to avoid any conflict.

I work in software development, so watching the mess that is the FFG X-wing app from outside is sad at best, and unprofessional at worst.

The first thing you do when making a new piece is check out the market you're entering and see how others do things.

If there's an off the shelf bit of kit that does the job, buy it. If not, you design and make it.

FFG ignored that, but seemingly ignored ever design choice made by those who went before them. The app was a terrible misjudgement.

So unless they can learn from their mistakes, or admit that they made them, Legion isn't going to get anything. Which seems a shame.

Just PDFs is unironically fine

I'm still not sure what the problem with "there's no official app, just use the third party apps or look at the PDF" is meant to be

3 hours ago, Nspace said:

I hope not. While the App could be better, being able to adjust points seems to have been very successful with 2.0.

And I'd think that FFG is kinda wishing that they had gone the Points and App route from the beginning on Legion, since they are now having to adjust points anyway, but with no way to make it easy on the players or tournament organizers.

That's because they went with a company that didn't do a good job on the app. A better designed app would have made things much easier and take much less maintenance.

I've tried using the official app a few times and I just... I can't figure out how to make it work.

Sure looks pretty though.

They probably do have regrets regarding their app. I would if I was them.

39 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Not so. This is exactly what I expected and exactly what to expect for Armada as well. The fact is that X-Wing doesn’t have accurate points on the cards and neither do Legion or Armada. The only difference, then, is that Legion and Armada have a reasonable approximation of accurate values for casual play (like our quick-build).

I don’t see the problem at all. If they were to do a reprint every time there’s a point adjustment, that’s way more upkeep than anyone cares about especially in repurchases.

Printed points are decent approximations. Balanced points are in PDFs and List Builders. As it has been and ever shall be.

My only disappointment is that the two systems run on the same scale. I would expect the official points to be doubled or halved to avoid any conflict.

No, it's pure foolishness.

A lot of X-Wing cards got errata. Accuracy Corrector did in 1e. They corrected the text in later printings of the expansion; I had a bunch of copies of Accuracy Corrector, and none with the old, incorrect text. They didn't do special printings for kit tournaments. Players didn't rebuy expansions. They just fixed it going forwards, rather than leaving it "wrong." Really simple ****. A refusal to do this is stupid.

Look, most other minis games, the official physical cards are an afterthought. Nobody in Hordes or Guild Ball cares. Many folks will use apps, or print off the latest versions from the website. This really isn't a big deal--it's pretty much industry standard. FFG may be unique in miniatures gaming with the combination how much emphasis they put on cards, while also making it hard for players to have accurate versions of the cards.

Again, simply being able to print off correct versions at home, and not reprinting the wrong information on future cards, would be enough.

The official app is both poorly layed out, and poorly optimised, both of which I imagine are a result of a misunderstanding of the cost of developing and maintaining such an app. I can't imagine it would take much for OP to just quietly give an approving nod toward the most popular third party apps for use in tournaments.

46 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

No, it's pure foolishness.

A lot of X-Wing cards got errata. Accuracy Corrector did in 1e. They corrected the text in later printings of the expansion; I had a bunch of copies of Accuracy Corrector, and none with the old, incorrect text. They didn't do special printings for kit tournaments. Players didn't rebuy expansions. They just fixed it going forwards, rather than leaving it "wrong." Really simple ****. A refusal to do this is stupid.

Look, most other minis games, the official physical cards are an afterthought. Nobody in Hordes or Guild Ball cares. Many folks will use apps, or print off the latest versions from the website. This really isn't a big deal--it's pretty much industry standard. FFG may be unique in miniatures gaming with the combination how much emphasis they put on cards, while also making it hard for players to have accurate versions of the cards.

Again, simply being able to print off correct versions at home, and not reprinting the wrong information on future cards, would be enough.

Their reasoning was that they will probably need to tweak points again in a year and some of the cards they just changed could need an adjustment again as time has gone by and the meta has shifted. If they kept reprinting cards with the latest versioning, it quickly becomes pretty hard to maintain version control. Here they are saying "the printed cards can't be relied upon to be up-to-date, but they do have points that are close enough to be playable out of the box" It's not a perfect solution (something more like a quick build level of granularity on the cards and then an online PDF would be more "elegant") but there is a logic to doing it this way.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

FFG may be unique in miniatures gaming with the combination how much emphasis they put on cards, while also making it hard for players to have accurate versions of the cards.

Yeah, this hits the nail on the head.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

Just PDFs is unironically fine

The main problem is that neither the PDF nor the card is a complete game accessory. If you need a 3-ring binder of downloads to squad build but then a box of otherwise useless cards to play, it's hard to see the point of either.

Unless you mean ditch the cards and just make nice PDFs with print-at-home cards. Then, the PDF could be fine.

Overall, I think FFG has come up with a great way to make the game playable/balanced, but a terrible way to display the end result for player use.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

No, it's pure foolishness.

A lot of X-Wing cards got errata. Accuracy Corrector did in 1e. They corrected the text in later printings of the expansion; I had a bunch of copies of Accuracy Corrector, and none with the old, incorrect text. They didn't do special printings for kit tournaments. Players didn't rebuy expansions. They just fixed it going forwards, rather than leaving it "wrong." Really simple ****. A refusal to do this is stupid.

Look, most other minis games, the official physical cards are an afterthought. Nobody in Hordes or Guild Ball cares. Many folks will use apps, or print off the latest versions from the website. This really isn't a big deal--it's pretty much industry standard. FFG may be unique in miniatures gaming with the combination how much emphasis they put on cards, while also making it hard for players to have accurate versions of the cards.

Again, simply being able to print off correct versions at home, and not reprinting the wrong information on future cards, would be enough.

The Errata are going to be put in the future printings. The points are the only things that are going to change, Because they can change back again next year, and then might go up again the year after that. I know that I for one would not like to buy the same card three or four times because it keeps changing.

Printed points are never going to be perfectly balanced in any game, even armada. Printing points after changing them and also probably before changing then again is just a waste. I don’t understand why people are up in arms about this. How many people complained that there weren’t point costs on the new XWing cards?

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The Errata are going to be put in the future printings. The points are the only things that are going to change, Because they can change back again next year, and then might go up again the year after that. I know that I for one would not like to buy the same card three or four times because it keeps changing.

Printed points are never going to be perfectly balanced in any game, even armada. Printing points after changing them and also probably before changing then again is just a waste. I don’t understand why people are up in arms about this. How many people complained that there weren’t point costs on the new XWing cards?

As I said repeatedly, you don't have to buy the same card 3 or 4 times. Just let folks print it at home. Like any other wargame.

Printing a card with the wrong points cost on it can only lead to confusion. Having two different points costs on the same card is just a really bad plan. Two players come in to play, one has build a list with the printed points, one has built a list with the tournament points. If you can't see why this is bad, there's no helping you.

2 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

Their reasoning was that they will probably need to tweak points again in a year and some of the cards they just changed could need an adjustment again as time has gone by and the meta has shifted. If they kept reprinting cards with the latest versioning, it quickly becomes pretty hard to maintain version control. Here they are saying "the printed cards can't be relied upon to be up-to-date, but they do have points that are close enough to be playable out of the box" It's not a perfect solution (something more like a quick build level of granularity on the cards and then an online PDF would be more "elegant") but there is a logic to doing it this way.

Better to just leave the points off, then. There was a little dismay at it in early X-Wing, but seems like most folks have come around to it being superior.

And also, follow the lead of other games and let folks print cards from PDFs. Abilities change all the time in Guild Ball. Folks print off new cards--It's not a big deal. But changing the points, having points still on the card, and not giving players the tools to have cards with the right points is just BS.

23 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

How many people complained that there weren’t point costs on the new XWing cards?

Hi.

11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

As I said repeatedly, you don't have to buy the same card 3 or 4 times. Just let folks print it at home. Like any other wargame.

Printing a card with the wrong points cost on it can only lead to confusion. Having two different points costs on the same card is just a really bad plan. Two players come in to play, one has build a list with the printed points, one has built a list with the tournament points. If you can't see why this is bad, there's no helping you.

Better to just leave the points off, then. There was a little dismay at it in early X-Wing, but seems like most folks have come around to it being superior.

And also, follow the lead of other games and let folks print cards from PDFs.

I dunno, how is tracking that you have the right version printed from a PDF that you downloaded any different than tracking cards with points on them?

Building a squad from last year's PDF is just the same disaster.

There should be one place that is a single source for all points, that is update-able and does not have multiple versions extant at the same time. You know, basically an online list builder, that prints your always-up-to-date ship with upgrades in a format that is friendly (maybe even attractive?) to the gamer heading to the table.

The App can still be this game's Everything, but it needs a lot more elbow grease. And printing capability.

55 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

And also, follow the lead of other games and let folks print cards from PDFs. Abilities change all the time in Guild Ball. Folks print off new cards--It's not a big deal. But changing the points, having points still on the card, and not giving players the tools to have cards with the right points is just BS.

If I am printing cards from the official site, why am I also buying card packs?

They should simply put out the pdf, watch the 3rd parties work the content, then pick the best one - give them some $ - and call it official!