Anyway amazing job mate you have worked wonders for our game giving it new life. So far we have playtested the guided shot, stormcaller, shadowcloack, ignore shadowcloack, ignore stealth. And found them just right even though we did lose to the beginning of the silver so we didn't playtest full to the gold level but if they don't break the game in copper i doubt they break it later. Now we are playing with a fighter with boots of speed, a mage with harrier, and a ranger with the ability to turn surges into enchaments and the opposite don't remember the name of that ability right now. So far it has been going alright and nothing seems broken. I will keep updates on our progress. For me it is better to play with completely new characters all balanced to 360 points than the original that in most cases we had ended up with broken parties with players over 400 points. So now we have selection of 54 new characters 18 from each class and all balanced. Great work again mate.

One more antistone. A guy in our group wants also to make an unarmed master fighter but after reading it, it does sound kinda overpowered since a copper level fighter with no weapon will have an average of 9 damage while his max damage will be enormous outweighing any weapon of the copper level. Also he wants to make it as EVERY surge will do +4 damage as to have meaning in silver and gold levels as you increase your dices. Maybe if making 3 damage per surge it could make it viable in a campaign?

As I said, everything is designed for vanilla. Unarmed Mastery is designed so that gaining 1 trait die will be approximately equal to your weapon going up a treasure level, because you start with 2 trait dice and you're supposed to have a maximum of 5 at gold level.

And the reason it gives you +4 damage for each die that rolls a surge instead of "S: +4 damage" is so that Fear doesn't block 4 damage per rank (instead, you basically ignore Fear if you have enough surges that you could pay for it).

+3 damage per surge might be close to balanced for an AC. That gives you the roughly same average damage as an Axe with 3 power dice, matches a Dragoontooth Hammer around 6 power, a Grinding Axe around 11 power (assuming target has ~4 armor), and hypothetically matches a Frost Axe around 17 power (assuming target has ~6 armor), though of course you can't roll more than 15 power on any attack.

It also makes spending fatigue almost twice as effective as normal, so it's basically got Valadir's ability built in (which is probably significantly better in AC than vanilla). And the axes are all significantly above average power for their weapon level, which makes them probably too strong a benchmark for vanilla, but maybe getting them would be typical in an AC because you can cherry-pick treasures at markets, I don't know. And I don't know if the assumed armor values are reasonable benchmarks, or how much the party will benefit from the extra money you don't need to spend on weapons. I don't play advanced campaigns. But you'll likely want to adjust the BP cost as well (my guess would be upwards).

The Spirit Weapon abilities will all have the opposite problem, where they won't benefit enough from training.

Thanks mate that was what i was thinking. Will lower it to 3 per surge probably raise the starting limit of dice to 3 but will raise it to 45 points at least.

That will give the exact same average of damage with an axe and the player will have a choice of upgrading his damage by trait training later.

If we happen to draw it on our next campaign will keep you updated on impressions.

Thanks again.

Just wanted to ask also what is the leap ability that you have on the editor. As i understand it is an ability from your enduring evil but could you copy paste it here since i have limited access to the net these days and can't download your whole enduring evil concept. Thanks again.

Uh... Leap is from Altar of Despair . Blood Apes have it. There's about half a dozen questions on it in the official FAQ.

The editor is designed for compatibility with vanilla, so in cases where I used an ability from Enduring Evil (Disruption, Entrap), I actually put in the description of the ability rather than just it's name, so it should be perfectly understandable to someone who's never heard of Enduring Evil.

LOL that's right i never thought of the leap from the descent i just thought it was some ability you made because it was in the enduring evil section

So how do you rule it with fatigue and movement and hustle??? What if i play hustle how much leap i have if i have let's say 3 speed? And what if i spend fatigue do i gain 2 movement for each fatigue then?

You follow the rules . You only gain 1 movement point per fatigue, but you can Leap 2 spaces per movement point (no matter where those movement points came from):

"The figure moves in a straight line (vertical or horizontal, but not diagonal) up to twice its remaining movement , ignoring obstacles and enemy figures." (AoD p.9)

You need to pick one of several possible interpretations of "cannot move" for after the figure finishes the Leap, but it doesn't make a terribly big difference which one.

i created these RtL abilities (didn't copy well):

Name Cost Perks Value Text
----Road to Legend specifics
Streetwise 5 2 5 When visiting or restocking in any town you may use two buildings instead of one.
Clerical background 5 3 5 You never have to pay for healing at the temple.
Ranger 10 2 10 You additionally start the game with the Guide and Staff of the Wild cards.
Connections 15 2 20 Tamalir upgrades can be purchased at the end of every turn, even if the party is not in Tamalir.
Recuperation 10 2 10 At the end of every week you discard all poison counters and are fully healed.
Strong Defenses 30 3 30 Tamalirs defense rating is increased by 4.
Better Defenses 15 3 15 Tamalirs defense rating is increased by 2.
Talkative 5 2 5 At the Tavern you may draw 2 Rumor cards and choose one of them without paying.
Light sleep 15 2 15 You remove sleep tokens on every result except a blank.

in general, abilities that let you regen wounds (helps between dungeons) and abilities that need fatigue (higher fatigue values in the later game) are more valuable in the AC. abilities that recover 1 fatigue are less valuable (higher max, therefore potions more efficient)

Streetwise fine, Clerical fine even though i wouldn't make any player with these abilities since they don't add anything to the game or change it.

Ranger seems VERY good can't tell if underpriced since getting 2250 for free at the start of the campaign is REALLY good.

Connections also sounds amazing since anyone played the AC extensively knows that the most difficult part about upgrading tamalir is speding weeks on it hence falling behind as the OL advances.

Recuperation is tottaly uncessary and overpriced since with 15 cost you get immunity to poison regeneration 1 and you do what you say not only at the end of the every week but at the end of every encounter also.

Strong defenses and better defenses could be highly overpowered since the way the OL has won was by raging a 7 defense tamalir in our campaings and taking the defense up to 11 might be too much.

Talkative well i wouldn't bother with an ability like that.

And light sleep for 15????? Either in your campaign you get ambushed ALOT and i mean ON EVERY single encounter or really i don't know. Cause having an ability that there is a 90% that you will never use is really not my idea of an ability.

That is my feedback about your abilities mate.

Personal opinion but i have racked up more than 1000 hours in the AC now as we are in our 15th campaign right now.

Anyway good work. Always nice to see new abilities especially for the AC since antistone doesn't play AC. (Really bad cause i really think he is missing the best part and with his commitment we could have made a complete overhaul of the AC by now)

well, i didn't test this and balancing was just rough guesses.

i have also adjusted the "original" costs a bit - like i said before, i value regeneration abilities higher in the AC because it also helps inbetween encounters/dungeons. therefore recuperation fits better in my scheme because other regen abilities are more expensive too.

i also think the defenses abilities are very powerful. maybe they should be more expensive. in reality i don't want tamalir razed anyways (i tend towards a more RPG-like approach) so this fits that attitude. i assume with strong defenses the OL will just not try to raze tamalir and that's it. 30 points isn't cheap.

ranger: yes it's good, but i don't think it's very popular. usefulness of the guide is very questionable, and you'd not buy him early when you need the money, so i wouldn't really value him. i just added him for thematical reasons. the big thing with this is the staff and that's "only" 1500. and again, you don't get the money, you don't have to spend it. you don't get your town or copper items faster. you can buy some skill or dice upgrade earlier, or the boat or map (assuming that you would give the staff priority). a good compare to ranger would be skills that give money, but i've never played with any of them.

my friends usually want powerful characters and this won't add anything to you personally. maybe this is also a reason why i priced the other "group advantages" rather low.

light sleep: i guess you're right. the thing about sleeping is, it doesn't happen often. but it can be really annoying if it does. but since this ability only works for the character who has it, it should be cheaper. the same argument goes for connections by the way: there are only a few (5?) tamalir upgrades, and you will be in tamalir a few times anyways, so you won't be using this alot. but especially the ability to reinforce defenses when you need it can be great.

the 5 (and probably also 10) cost abilities aren't meant to be a characters only abilities. just an "add-on".

Latest feedback from our playtesting.

1) Vigor as suspected is clearly underrated in cost. It costs only 20 points while i would even pick it over varikas ability. Let me put down my arguments.

Vigor is about 3 or 4 times better than the ability that you don't lose an order by suffering wounds since

a) You get the fatigue immediately and you don't have to wait for the next round and you can use them in your attack or even just have them for your ghost armor.

b) If you are missing 1 or 2 fatigue you would never spend an entire order (4 or 5 movement) to get back your fatigue while now you can just reduce your movement and restore your missing fatigue and still spend the extra MP on movement.

Our current character is a ranged player with 5 speed and 4 fatigue and we just have her advance all the time had given her leadership and she is NEVER below maximum fatigue giving rest orders or any other orders as she goes.

c) there are really few times that you would battle since advancing and running are so much stronger now since you can pretty much advance shot a high powered shot by boosting with all your fatigues and then get it back without waiting for your next turn hence raising your defenses with ghost armor.

I suspect that as you mentioned you haven't playtested all of the abilities and i believe that in a quest this ability will be even stronger than in a AC.

2) Vampiric Succor is just overpriced. With less cost you get get ispher's ability in which you get an extra immunity to poison and the ability to complete regen between encounters but ofcourse that is only for AC. But even in a quest with regen you get 1 wound every TURN while with succor you must kill and at best with battle you are going to kill 2 creatures? And you clearly can't kill at every round someone be it either a quest or AC since there are plenty of quiet time as you move around the board hence the 1 wound regen will prove better in the long run. Now the only argument that could be made is a mage with breath or blast especially in quests where monsters are fragile but we all know mages drop on a single round so they will never use that. What i did for our AC was to raise the cost to 35-40 (you might even want to give different values for fighter, range or magic as you do usually) and did it 2 wounds per creature. Don't know how it will turn but will keep you informed.

3) Fate cleaver was definetely never playtested since i have made an 8 fatigue 2 CT player with that ability and playtesting it on a quest he dominated the board and i think it can only get worst in AC since the spawn is more tough for the OL and the good spawn card are even less since you only spawn your good creatures (upgraded). You can easily have a player like that who his only job is to cut cards not to mention we didn't even had leadership which he would make him vitality free and not expend any resources. Ofcourse in a LT encounter that skill would make it impossible for the OL to play any cards at all improving it's unplayability.

4) Death Cheater we made a character but then withdrew him before even playing after careful consideration since in a AC would probably be a dominating force by making the OL miss every turn once at a critical strike with alot of damage (since he can choose which one to make a miss) and then use curse dolls to remove them after gathering 3 of them. Ofcourse he would have to remain with curses for some rounds but since he is the tank of the party (only on a player like that it seems natural) he would have no trouble surviving. But what made it worst was my idea that once that guy hits silver and draws the mirror shield it will end his greed for money for curse dolls and make it somewhat i don't know what to call it. Even on a quest this guy can prove devastating as 200 for a doll are not that much and you would only be using him on death blows as we all know that cutting a single attack is enough to save your ass. An adjustment would be to raise the cost and make it so you have to decide if you are going to make it a miss before seeing the dices but for me i would just stay away from skills like that.

5) Eliam's ability in comparison with whirlwind but in extension with fumes also. Elia's has a cost of 40 while whirlwind has 50. We are currently playing a player with whirlwind and reach and even though we haven't played with another player we made with eliams ability the gap between them is really abnormal. I don't know what it should be done but both abilities do the same thing with whirlwind being highly better than eliams since it is an AIMED attack and also it can be made even when you have no fatigue while eliam's you need 3 fatigue. If you put 2 normal fighters with 3 speed and 3 fatigue there is really no comparison between them as both have 3 movement (either by fatigue for the aimed or advance for the whirlwind) and a sweep attack while whirlwind has an aimed which makes him 2 times better at least since a miss is quite propable and disastrous as you miss all your targets. Even a fighter with 4 fatigue and 4 speed won't cover the gap between the 2 abilities and you can easily understand that by playing both.

All the above are simple results from playtesting i have said in each ability if it applies only in AC or not but most i think apply in both situations.

P.S. You mentioned when i said about making a perk where your attacks can't be dodged that you don't want to mess with nullifing specific cards when the familiar hawk nullifies 5 of OL cards and not to mentioned you have made a perk FLOAT which nullifies 2 of the OL cards (spiked pits) unless i missed something though.

That will be all I'll be waiting your feedback and as always thanks for a great job you made on the generator.

Thanks; it's really nice to get some outside playtesting. I'll need to think some of that stuff over, but comments on a few things that jump out at me:

Drglord said:

Perhaps this is different in AC, but my experience in vanilla is that you usually kill a monster in one hit without spending fatigue, which means Battling lets you kill two monsters and NO amount of fatigue boosting on your first attack can compensate for having only a single attack. (Unless of course you have Rapid Fire, the completely broken skill that is the bane of all fatigue balancing in the game.)

Is that not your experience?

Drglord said:

When you're using custom heroes, you cannot assume that mages will be fragile.

Drglord said:

I'm not completely sure you understand the ability. Suppose on turn 2 the overlord has 4 cards in his hand and you have 8 fatigue. He tries to play a spawn card, and you spend 2 fatigue to prevent it. He hasn't played a spawn card, so he tries to play another spawn card, and you spend another 2 fatigue to prevent it. If he tries to play all 4 cards and you block them all, you've spent all 8 fatigue.

That means he doesn't play any cards that turn, but next turn he still has all four of those cards and all the threat he used to try to play them, plus the new threat and cards for his new turn. So he now has 6 cards. He can try to play all 4 cards from the first turn over again, and if you want to block them all it costs you another 8 fatigue. Then, you have no fatigue, the overlord still has all his threat, and he can play either or both of his two new cards if he wants, and you can't do anything to stop him. And he'll still have the four cards you stopped him from playing next turn.

I can easily imagine this would be a LOT better in AC, since the end of a dungeon makes the overlord lose all the cards and threat he hasn't succeeded in using yet and refills all your fatigue for free. The reinforcement marker will also hurt. And it's true that I haven't playtested it yet. But even with 8 fatigue per turn, the overlord should still be able to play a significant number of cards. So what exactly do you mean by "dominated the board"?

Drglord said:

You're right, I neglected to consider all the ways of removing Curse tokens (this was originally a feat for Enduring Evil, which has no way of removing them except for Sahla). Combining it with Curse Dolls in vanilla is still probably not hugely better than Invulnerability Potions (except it's kind of like Potion Tolerance for the whole party...ugh) and might be balancable, but could be worse in AC, especially if the shop has an unlimited supply of them. And the Mirror Shield breaks it completely. So if you want to use it, at a minimum you'll have to say it bypasses the Mirror Shield, and you might need to nerf or remove Curse Dolls as well (I never liked them).

But that's a shame, because the official rules probably make the ability unworkable, even though they don't seem to accomplish anything particularly worthwhile in exchange. Just another reason to play Enduring Evil, I suppose.

Drglord said:

Float is basically just the crappy part of Wind Pact; you'll still suffer wounds from a Spiked Pit, but you won't need to spend an extra movement point to climb out. Also, you don't have your line-of-sight restricted for being in a pit, which...I'm not entirely sure whether Wind Pact gives you, come to think of it.

Skye has several mitigating factors. Firstly, that's not her primary effect. Secondly, it's not completely reliable; the overlord can avoid it sometimes. Third, working against a larger class of cards is actually better, because the power is more distributed. But mostly she's just in there because it's an official ability; I'm not about to design a new familiar that prevents nearby monsters from Charging and Raging.

Antistone said:

yes that's different in the AC. you have much tougher monsters (upgraded) and often cannot kill them in one blow, or at least cannot rely on it (even if you don't miss).

A ranger especially in copper can never rely on killing on a single shot a monster since 90% it will be an upgraded version with alot of hit points. And as i said you almost always have MP to spare if you declare an advance and have 5 speed or ever 4. As i said if you are missing 1 or 2 fatigue you would never rest to get them back but with this ability I haven't ended a single turn with less than max my fatigue giving orders with leadership since i never run out and also have the ghost armor on top to be QUITE QUITE difficult to kill since i have regen 4 in truth by restoring my fatigue. As i said i would pick it ten times over varikas ability even for a fighter with 3 speed since i no longer need to rest and when ever i have move MP than i need i will regen my fatigue. Also tireless seems REALLY strong have made a fighter but haven't really playtested yet.

Fate cleaver that is the way we played it but keep in mind that in the AC about 4 or maximum 5 spawns are worth it in the whole deck since you only play the type of creature you have upgraded. The creatures with the most cards are the eldritch. So you can effectively shut down the whole spawn ability of the OL by having a guy with leadership give you fatigue and by shutting down 4 cards a round the OL will NEVER ever spawn anything threating. (spawing kobolds or a lone medusa i have yet to see in the AC cause it would be very funny).

Yap Death cheater is kinda broken. Also 2 other abilities give you stun tokens which can be prevented by the shield but these are not so much broken.

keep in mind that in the gold level you also get a relic which prevents effect tokens to be placed on you so you have the mirror shield in the silver level and the UNBREAKABLE relic in the gold. But anyway by gold the heroes have become too strong so it doesn't really show.

I have made a fighter that gets a stun and restores his fatigue he could always use the mirror shield in silver level, but first that would diminish his hitting power but not letting him get the offhand bonus of a weapon which is really important in the AC as a fighter you try to max your damage in order to one shot upgraded creatures.

I thought float negates also damage from pits since you say ignore all effects of pit. The damage from a pit is a effect isn't? Weird wording there that was what i though.

Anyway you should really play AC since you will find it is quite different and more like your enduring evil version since creatures no longer die on one shot and battles are real battles and not spray and kill in quests where you can effectively open a door and clean the room before the OL can react something that always bugged me.

I really believe with all your talent and time you have spend in the game you could do marvels in the AC by tottaly remaking it.

I will try to upload some characters i have made and playtested in the AC with my feedback.

Keep up the good work mate we owe you.

Hellequin her ability sounds REALLY really good but she is a armor 0 Ct 3 player so we will see how see goes have not playtested yet.

Boots of speed crazy ability IMHO on any player since you can cover tremendous amounts of space and battle. Having the ability to do 8 squares and battle is awesome. And since most fighter will spend their fatigue quickly in order to battle he was awesome. We lost the campaign to a rage of tamalir but he was not to blame

A guy in out team group wanted a shadowcloack mage and since we wanted something extreme on him we tried BOLT which costs 100 points since we have never seen a bolt before since no one uses it ever. It proved far less effective than we thought since you need a lot of fatigue to get in position and a good OL will take care not to put them in a position to get bolted so we have never seen it work. I have a suspicion though that if you combine it with ignore shadowcloack ability he will dominate the outdoor encounters since the OL creatures will have nowhere to hide and will get slaughtered easily. The funny thing is that since he was 0 armor he would die all the time i wonder if we were playing him wrong since shadowcloack should protect him but in real game it never did. Have also more shadowcloack heroes that i haven't played yet will see how they go. But so far it seems REALLY expensive since it costs more than 1 CT.

Immortal in name let's hope she will be also in game. She is still a 4 CT armor 0 character which means everything that get's past her dodge stealth will kill her in 2 or 3 hits so i don't know how handicap will be to the party. Have not playtested yet.

Interesting combo since he always play in OL turns so he is able to use his shadowcloack and never get hurt. Playing your whole turn in OL turns really sounds cool and close to tahlia ability which is awesome. Look forward in playtesting him.

The player i made i was telling you about. Even though her attacks can't be dodged (dodge would render her useless and since the OL can play concealing shadows with 2 Treachery it would be useless all the time) she is still quite unpredictable and even though she has the potential for big damage she has 60% chance of rolling a blank in her 5 dices so her only hope and my idea is to pick up as soon as possible born to the bow and raise her damage way up. Other guys think she is weak but i find her interesting.

A mage we are currently playing he is really a monster since he has 4 armor (elven robe) in copper level and the most armored mage we ever played and no longer we have to worry about him dying all the time and he can be in the front of the combat.

We played him in another campaign we lost advance and aim was REALLY cool and worked really well with power potions.

The current other player i play in our current campaing along with belial which i have said is quite underrrated and i would have rated it at 40 points or even more. She has master archer and leadership and she is just giving orders left and right every turn and being VERY hard to kill with a ghost armor the heavy leather and the armor ring and a crystal shield. As i said i find it a QUITE powerful ability since gaining fatigue out of nowhere is quite awesome since we all know the power of players are in the fatigue they have.

Ariel the best runner you will ever see and face. She has even drawn skilled as an ability making her a 33 MP runner with a vitality potion which i have never seen in my life. All that remains is to get accrobat and with her 1 Ct value she will be able to run the entire dungeon in one turn. Of course she dies one one hit but who cares?

Basilisk another shadowcloack mage that hasn't been playtested yet but since i presented the rest i will present him also.

P.S. Trademarks are the properties of their respective owners. Pictures were taken from the web and i am sorry i can't identify the artists but it is meant for personal use so if anyone feels he should be mentioned and identifies his work he can reply in this post and if also needed i could might as well remove the pictures all together.

Seems the img doesn't work oh well will try to re post them.

If you want to discuss how powerful various abilities are in the advanced campaign, that's fine, but I can't make use of your playtesting data unless you clearly distinguish what's vanilla and what's AC. Lots of abilities have different values in AC, and I'm not going to try to account for that at this time (and if I ever did, it would involve a completely separate version of the editor just for AC).

The cost listed in the editor is supposed to be the cost for vanilla . I realize several people (understandably) want a good hero editor for campaigns, but I'm just not going to attempt one at this time. Sorry.

Hey, Dragon. Try using the little button that looks like mountains, it's fourth from the right side. It should bring up and Image Properties window, then you can paste the direct link to the image there. Also, I've found that while the heroes made with Antistone's generator are a bit powerful, it levels out fine in the Advanced Campaign. And that's with us playing with full skills, and feats, rather than the limited amount the Advanced Campaign normally gives the players. I'm currently at 107 Conquest, with one town Razed, and the heroes have 61 Conquest. I've yet to upgrade a monster category, because I'm being a sport and letting them get good gear.

Edit: I'm playing the Sorcerer King and have all my lieutenants.

Well okay i see i wanted to ask about pulse. You say per turn and you said you are quite precise in your wording. So that means 5 times per complete round of game? (if you have the fatigue to afford). Or was it supposed to be once during your turn? The same applies to feat retraining. Is it once per your turn? Or once per turn? Even if that is the case do you really believe 2 fatigue are worth a knockback? I understand how you can move your heroes by doing that but 2 fatigue does seem REALLY expensive hasn't really tried it yet.

The points that i made are not for AC exclusively. Vigor does not lose any of his power in vanilla and still is way underpriced i bet if you tried it you would see it your self. Death cheater and fate cleaver are still game breaking even in Vanilla. (Maybe fate cleaver less and it's cost is kinda high so i keep a right to take that back).

The other thing that clearly needs notice is the eliam's ability against whirlwind, or fumes. Whirlwind is a little costier but about 2 or 3 times better. I clearly do not see any reason to pick up eliam's ability over these skills. You do the same thing but in one occasion you MUST have 3 fatigue to do it while in the other you can even WITH no fatigue and IT is aimed. Now you will say ofcourse that you need to move into place but since players have most the time same amount of fatigue and speed that means a 3 fatigue 3 speed will move 3 spaces and use the ability with the whirlwind having a huge advantage of being aimed. A 4 fatigue 4 speed player will move 5 spaces with eliams and 4 with aimed. Not to mention if you pick up leadership (by drawing it) you can end up advancing with a single fatigue and spraying death. In vanilla that everything dies with a single shot this can be alot more devastating than in AC. So either eliams is overpriced or whirlwind or fumes is underpriced.

Look forward for you answers especially for the once per turn who has really boggled me.

Just testing the picture thingy this is Drittz

I checked the once per turn that was used in the TOI for feats and it implies that once per turn means 1 in your turn and 1 in the OL turn (even though there are 3 more turns if you have 3 more heroes). But since doublechecking all your skills you use the once per turn all the time so i am guessing that you meant once per your turn.

Actively-used abilities (as opposed to ones with a triggering condition, or ones like Aura that are "always on") can only be used during your own turn, unless stated otherwise (such as Silhouette's "at any time"). Brother Glyr does not get free movement 5 times per round, One Fist does not get to make 5 "hook" attacks per round, etc. Similarly, abilities in my editor like Hasty Attacks, Combat Momentum, Sacrificial Sprint, Marathon Momentum, Shifty, Shadow Guard, and, yes, Pulse - as well as many others - can only be used during your own turn.

And I'm actually shocked at the suggestion that 2 fatigue is expensive for Pulse. Based on that logic, I assume that you must think that Telekinesis is a terrible skill.

Telekinisis is quite quite different since you can effectively move a creature that is 10 squares away. But as i said i haven't tried it yet.