The Rules Reference for Legion was updated today and included a chart with updated points for commanders, units and upgrade cards.

I wonder if we will see this done with Armada? I don't know if X-Wing 1.0 ever saw a points re-balance, but this has me kind of excited. If Armada were to get a points re-balance, what cards/ships would you like to see, go up, go down?

If it does happen for Armada, I don't think we'd see it until after Onager and Starhawk release, maybe even as ate as "right before Armada: Clone Wars" factions are set to drop.

I would hope that FFG will be very conservative and careful with a rebalance. Maybe don't change any ship pricing at first and instead focus on really bad, overpriced and fringe cards that never see play like Dominator. I just don't know how much data on the games balance FFG has and how accurate it is.

I also kind of like the stability of pricing in this game. I would hate it if any list I build previously was now not playable anymore because it is now over 400 points. So I guess for now I would also restrict point changes to only making things cheaper not more expensive.

5 minutes ago, LordCola said:

I kind of like the stability of pricing in this game. I would hate it if any list I build previously was now not playable anymore because it is now over 400 points. So I guess for now I would also restrict point changes to only making things cheaper not more expensive.

Thankfully for Legion it was almost entirely points reductions to get lesser used options on the table.

I hope not. Other than maybe Dominator I think everything has its place at the table in some niche or another. Also with the rate of new stuff hopefully increasing we may see old stuff become more potent.

Dominator for example could work with shields to maximum and projection experts. Currently the issue is shields to maximum needs a ISD. Projection experts can ride on an Arquitens Command or Harrow. If we get a chimera or liberator title for the Arquittens or VSD I woud bet it would see play.

Plus who knows what's comming with the clone wars and beyond. There could be a offensive retrofit or ion cannon crit card that lets you steal shields making Dominator a Vampire.

32 minutes ago, eliteone said:

I wonder if we will see this done with Armada?

Nope. Armada isn't being pushed out at an unsustainable pace like Legion. They actually have time to test units and future releases without worrying about balance issues. If all else fails and issues arise, they've historically released soft nerfs in the form of upgrades.

There is only a handful of upgrades that I think could use a look at but every ship is a viable option right now. legion reblance from my understanding was because viable options where limited I doubt we will see it, but if we do I think it would be price reductions on just a few upgrades.

Just now, xero989 said:

legion reblance from my understanding was because viable options where limited

Pretty much.

A lot of the specialist support and heavy options were considered DOA.... The T47 has basically been unplayable since the game launched...

36 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Nope. Armada isn't being pushed out at an unsustainable pace like Legion. They actually have time to test units and future releases without worrying about balance issues. If all else fails and issues arise, they've historically released soft nerfs in the form of upgrades.

Good points, outside of the AFMK2 A and Interdictor CR, I do see the other ship types make appearances. Harrow for the VSD is the most recent example of a soft-buff.

But for the individual upgrades, I think some of those cards can have a second look. Expanded Launchers, Redundant Shields, Independence, Dominator, and especially Leia. And Especially Tarkin - and Yavarivs maybe upped to Demo title points cost. Some over costed cards could be errata'd like Independence - maybe remove the attack restriction?

Tarkin and Leia could probably use a price drop. Maybe 32 as a new cost for both.

I’d like to see a few significant changes. All of which I haven’t thought out nearly enough.

-I’d like to see ECM become a discard. That brings it in line with most other defensive retrofits.

-I’d like to see Dominator become 8 points and burning one shield for 2 dice.

-I’d like to see Pryce get some sort of caveat that can cause her to be discarded before she triggers.

Just now, Church14 said:

-I’d like to see ECM become a discard.

Only if Xi7s also becomes a discard.

5 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Only if Xi7s also becomes a discard.

Hm. That would make them make a comeback. Though right now you can IO/X17 if you wish and get similar effect

Its also possible that my idea is just a bad one.

1 minute ago, Church14 said:

Hm. That would make them make a comeback. Though right now you can IO/X17 if you wish and get similar effect

Sure at twice the cost and the loss of an officer slot. Xi7s are pretty wide spread locally. Lots of big ships and lists with big ship hunters... Ecms is the primary defense to those right now.

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

Sure at twice the cost and the loss of an officer slot. Xi7s are pretty wide spread locally. Lots of big ships and lists with big ship hunters... Ecms is the primary defense to those right now.

Hm. We kinda drifted away from them locally. So that would color my thinking. .

I agree with minimizing rebalances, and specifically minimize ship changes. But....

I was looking at NebB Frigates again the other day (one of my most memorable ships from flying LucasArts X-wing & TIE Figher back in the heyday); and when I compare a Gladiator II to a NebB II, you get the following for 5 points: Extra shields on more used arcs, weapons team, 5 more dice (and more reliable), relevant double arcing; you lose 1 red out the front, and having double braces. Even Vanguard is still less potent than a gladiator and the Gladiator still has a title slot left and can be spammed.

I keep trying to use NebB's (and their interesting titles), but can't justify anything but Yavaris for the price. Are the Gladiators undercosted or the Rebel Frigates overcosted, or am I missing something in my analysis?

This is not a complaint as I'm practically a fanboi for Armada design decisions, but any discussion of fleet points reminds me of this unanswered question for me.

Like I said before I feel like every ship is viable, however I do think ECM should be a discard, and they should get rid of the dumb interaction between X17's and Advanced Projectors, IMO, but as is game balance is pretty soild I just wish accuracy generation was a little more meaningful. I would also be happy if ecm was worded in such a way that it could discard a single die with an accuracy icon.

20 minutes ago, deDios said:

I agree with minimizing rebalances, and specifically minimize ship changes. But....

I was looking at NebB Frigates again the other day (one of my most memorable ships from flying LucasArts X-wing & TIE Figher back in the heyday); and when I compare a Gladiator II to a NebB II, you get the following for 5 points: Extra shields on more used arcs, weapons team, 5 more dice (and more reliable), relevant double arcing; you lose 1 red out the front, and having double braces. Even Vanguard is still less potent than a gladiator and the Gladiator still has a title slot left and can be spammed.

I keep trying to use NebB's (and their interesting titles), but can't justify anything but Yavaris for the price. Are the Gladiators undercosted or the Rebel Frigates overcosted, or am I missing something in my analysis?

This is not a complaint as I'm practically a fanboi for Armada design decisions, but any discussion of fleet points reminds me of this unanswered question for me.

I think the design team weighs red die pretty heavily. If I had to guess an order from valued highest to lowest, I'd say the heaviest point costs are from:

Speed/Yaw Chart

Hull Value

Total Ship Attack Die

Individual Color(s) Ship Attack Die (red - highest, then blue, then black or tied blue/black)

Available Upgrade Icons

Command Value

Squadron Value

Engineering Value

Shielding

Total Anti Squad Attack Dice

Individual Color(s) Anti Squad Attack Dice

IMO instead of messing with points and cards just upping to 600 sector fleet would help a lot of the issues.

6 minutes ago, Grathew said:

IMO instead of messing with points and cards just upping to 600 sector fleet would help a lot of the issues.

And keep the 25% for squadrons? I shudder to think of the 1/3rd and what crazyness that would look like.

Id be all for a points rebalance. Like in legion, more focused on broadening the competitive options.

I think the points costs of the admirals are the big one.

Beyond that its more a question of preference. Gunnery team and leading shots are basically auto picks for ships that can take them. Does that mean they should go up in points to make ropm for some of the other upgrades? Id say not but from a certain intent of balance you could make this argument.

1 hour ago, eliteone said:

And keep the 25% for squadrons? I shudder to think of the 1/3rd and what crazyness that would look like.

The 1/4 for squadrons is the sector fleet rules. I don't think that should change.

1 hour ago, Grathew said:

The 1/4 for squadrons is the sector fleet rules. I don't think that should change.

Bleh, sector fleet games suck. Takes WAY too much time. I remain an advocate for cutting the tournament point target down to 300.

Although, of course, that doesn't really help the argument about over-costed cards. OTOH, 'just increase the total fleet points so their overpriced nature is more diluted and less noticeable'...isn't exactly solving anything, either.

But there are plenty of other ways to buff or boost things to get these cards viable. As an example suggested above - some kind of officer that exhausts to use, and lets you spend a shield off any ship at close or medium range when required to spend one of your own? Suddenly Dominator becomes a STEAL. Or, say, the old "Gunner" from X-Wing 1E, that let you effectively repeat your attack if it did no damage - that is, perform the same attack again in full, but with the enemy's defense tokens or upgrades now exhausted from cancelling your previous attack. (Providing the defender the always-interesting choice of...'do I let some damage go through so Gunner doesn't trigger? How confident am I that I can stop the same exact attack a second time?')

I think Armada is in good enough a spot - especially relative to these other games - that merely the occasional nudge like that is all it particularly needs.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

Bleh, sector fleet games suck. Takes WAY too much time. I remain an advocate for cutting the tournament point target down to 300.

Or you could play task force instead, or X-wing... I want a two or even three-hour game that leaves me exhausted.

@shmitty even set up a 3 round, 800 point event a while back and the result was fantastic. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

8 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Or you could play task force instead, or X-wing... I want a two or even three-hour game that leaves me exhausted.

The "problem", such as it is, is that this conflicts with what makes THIS game so great to begin with.

Specifically - that 6-turn structure, paired with the objectives the give you game play requirements fitting the structure. Armada sings when in that format, and it really is just a snapshot of a larger story, but that's what the game aims to deliver, and it does so extremely well at the 300 pt range (tolerable at 400 pt).

The idea of a multi-hour game session 'that leaves you exhausted' is potentially interesting...but when slogging through that many hours, ending up still covering only 6 turns feels like...?what? I'm still seeing only a snapshot of a larger story, and it takes so long...why?

Some of the best gaming sessions I've had with FFG's Star Wars games have indeed been X-Wing...campaigns. And now you're talking 5 or 6 hours, yes, but over 4 or 5 distinct missions, picking up cargo, scouting out satellites, stealing data, etc...all linked together with a tight narrative. And THAT is, IMHO, even better than what Armada can do. But what it fails at is portability - that only works with 2 people who want to spend a day together gaming. What makes Armada amazing is that it manages to capture some of the flavor of that ...honestly, much of it (certainly orders of magnitude more than 'tournament' X-Wing, which is all anyone ever really plays over there)… and delivers that in just about 2 hours, so you can do it over and over again in the same day.

That's pretty amazing! And I do like that the upcoming Rebellion in the Rim seems focused on providing more of that multi-game experience by taking Armada down to the Task Force level...while the overall campaign is still too epic (vs X-Wing 1st edition's more "narrative" campaigns)...hey, it's a big step in the right direction! But, IMHO again, going to 600 or more points...all you get from that is more time spent, with no more benefit. There is no more nuance to the game, no more story develops...Armada just isn't designed for more than 6 turns of tightly-focused play...it just takes longer, that's all.

And I love gaming Armada all-day. Just not one single six-turn battle that takes that entire time. Give me 4 or 5 battles, especially those developing a story (even something as simple as 'moving up a tournament ladder' - although I certainly WANT more), and now you've got my attention...

This point change from legion only shows one for me.
Armada is well balanced. So many years without any need for balancing points is great.

And for the record. I don`'t think that this will change this much (beside the sniper change with the range). The main Problem of Legion is not the expensive big units. It is the general structure of the game (many small units >> one expensive non trooper).

And the biggest fun is the change with range 5, with only a range 4 tool in the star box.

I detest digital errata.

Otherwise why did I buy the physical product?