So my question is about this incoming pilot of the BTL-B Y-wing, Matchstick.

Stress, strain, ion tokens... are all clearly red tokens but... Are target locks also considered red tokens? If so, it would just be so easy to target lock him with every one of your ships to get insane passive mods.

I was checking the rulebook and couldn't find any mention of target locks being a different kind of token. They have the same shape as the rest of red tokens, also some red stripes and to be removed a certain condition needs to be met so... I guess they are red tokens??

It just seems too easy but as I say, I couldn't find any reason why not.

So what do you think, can they be considered red tokens or not?

Rules reference p12 (close to the end): " Lock tokens are red token s "

21 minutes ago, Smuggler said:

Rules reference p12 (close to the end): " Lock tokens are red token s "

If this is true I think this pilot is too busted. You just lock him with two ships you know are not going to be using locks, equip him with a turret and veteran turret gunner and destroy people at no extra cost. I think this is going to feel bad at tournaments and many people are going to ask whether that's legal if I do it LOL.

14 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

If this is true I think this pilot is too busted. You just lock him with two ships you know are not going to be using locks, equip him with a turret and veteran turret gunner and destroy people at no extra cost. I think this is going to feel bad at tournaments and many people are going to ask whether that's legal if I do it LOL.

It's double mods. There are tonnes of ways of doing double mods. I don't see that this will be any more or less disheartening than like... Poe.

17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's double mods. There are tonnes of ways of doing double mods. I don't see that this will be any more or less disheartening than like... Poe.

Well, ok, of course it won't be that powerful but you know, it looks like cheating. Giving for free a mod that would normally be obtained at a cost seems like a devs mistake. I mean, provided you don't want to use the lock action with your other guys (which is not too difficult) is like you are getting that for absolutely no cost. That's why I say it is busted. Poe at least gets a stress token, so there is a cost associated, plus he is worth for sure many more points than this guy.

13 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

I mean, provided you don't want to use the lock action with your other guys (which is not too difficult) is like you are getting that for absolutely no cost.

I mean... You brought two ships worth of points to the list (presumably two GST for 50 points total) and you have to protect their sorry asses in order to maintain the double mod through the game.

Not so much of a no cost, hm...

14 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

I mean... You brought two ships worth of points to the list (presumably two GST for 50 points total) and you have to protect their sorry asses in order to maintain the double mod through the game.

Not so much of a no cost, hm...

You have a point there, I hadn't thought too much about the lock tokens going away when the other ships die 😅 but still, I don't think you need to commit your whole list to take advantage of this, like you don't need to include 2 v19 just for the trick. For example, I have a list that includes Ric and CLT Obi-wan. I don't really mind losing the lock action in both of them since I was anyway going to be focusing for the defensive flexibility. In this case it wouldn't be weird that at least 1 of them dies later than Matchstick (if not both) so I will be having 2 or 4 passive rerolls per turn at no cost until matchstick dies. It actually looks pretty good to me.

24 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

You have a point there, I hadn't thought too much about the lock tokens going away when the other ships die 😅 but still, I don't think you need to commit your whole list to take advantage of this, like you don't need to include 2 v19 just for the trick. For example, I have a list that includes Ric and CLT Obi-wan. I don't really mind losing the lock action in both of them since I was anyway going to be focusing for the defensive flexibility. In this case it wouldn't be weird that at least 1 of them dies later than Matchstick (if not both) so I will be having 2 or 4 passive rerolls per turn at no cost until matchstick dies. It actually looks pretty good to me.

Well, yay? Finally a non-generic clone pilot worth considering in list-building, maybe?

Sinker doesn't count much since it's a non-generic pilot that only works with a bunch of generics by his side.

Wolffe is another one there, I guess? Would love to see him having a colleague with a callsign.

1 hour ago, xanatos135 said:

Well, ok, of course it won't be that powerful but you know, it looks like cheating. Giving for free a mod that would normally be obtained at a cost seems like a devs mistake. I mean, provided you don't want to use the lock action with your other guys (which is not too difficult) is like you are getting that for absolutely no cost. That's why I say it is busted. Poe at least gets a stress token, so there is a cost associated, plus he is worth for sure many more points than this guy.

It's not free at all. It's a pilot abiity, it costs points, and it costs whatever locks the rest of your squad could use to mod their dice.

58 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

don't really mind losing the lock action in both of them since I was anyway going to be focusing for the defensive flexibility

and what if you are in a situation where you maneuver in such a way where you wont be shot at, and dont have shots, yet in range to get a lock on an enemy, so when you do come around, you can have double mods (focus/lock)?

Thats what you're giving up to give a Y-wing extra dice.

Also, it is a 2 dice primary. Or you equip a 2 dice turret, or 3 die ion capped at 1 damage.

So in order to get something out of all the rerolls you would need to invest 3-5 pts for turret, and 8 pts more for a veteran turret gunner + plus 2 more ships with their points and sacrifying their (future) rerolls. Lots of hoops, all on a pretty terrible dial. You still have to have a target. Not worth it I think.

Neat that Matchstick gets something out of the reds on the dial, but still the ships maneuvers like a stick (stuck in mud) esp. when stressed.

The opponent though might think about rather locking someone else than Matchstick (IF matchstick is pointed somewhat towards him). That's neat, but not broken op.

16 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

and what if you are in a situation where you maneuver in such a way where you wont be shot at, and dont have shots, yet in range to get a lock on an enemy, so when you do come around, you can have double mods (focus/lock)?

Thats what you're giving up to give a Y-wing extra dice.

You are right, but you are not losing that option. If it's more beneficial for you at that moment you can just lock and forget about the y (who can still get stressed by himself), but until that point you had the mod so maybe it worked for at least 1 or 2 turns of shooting, so not bad.

27 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not free at all. It's a pilot abiity, it costs points, and it costs whatever locks the rest of your squad could use to mod their dice.

Yes, the pilot ability comes at a cost, but they all do. It's just that locking on your ship looks to me like "avoiding" the additional cost that is getting your ship stressed/strained/ionized. Many pilot abilities come at an additional cost or requirement (Ten Numb needs to be stressed, the force users spend force, Poe needs to be stressed, Soontir needs the bullseye...). For example, I would love to find a way of activating the b-wings pilot abilities without needing to stress them, so I see this like doing that. Maybe it's not super broken or anything, but I like it and it looks efficient enough, specially with veteran turret gunner.

6 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Also, it is a 2 dice primary. Or you equip a 2 dice turret, or 3 die ion capped at 1 damage.

So in order to get something out of all the rerolls you would need to invest 3-5 pts for turret, and 8 pts more for a veteran turret gunner + plus 2 more ships with their points and sacrifying their (future) rerolls. Lots of hoops, all on a pretty terrible dial. You still have to have a target. Not worth it I think.

Neat that Matchstick gets something out of the reds on the dial, but still the ships maneuvers like a stick (stuck in mud) esp. when stressed.

The opponent though might think about rather locking someone else than Matchstick (IF matchstick is pointed somewhat towards him). That's neat, but not broken op.

I have seen people using rebel y-wings with turret and vtg without this offensive power and they were alright but yes, it's a bit expensive. About the dial, R3 astromech is only 2 points and turns it into a really good dial, with all those interceptor speed 2 blues, but yes, more points... XD it just looks fun.

PD: About friendly ships not being able to lock... I guess I played too much imperial so I don't see target locks so necessary 😆 but I know, I know... they are quite useful

1 hour ago, xanatos135 said:

About the dial, R3 astromech is only 2 points and turns it into a really good dial,

Sure, but with the Republic Y-wing, the R5 astro is arguably more valuable to help keep Plated Hull active. So you are making that trade-off. Just depends how much you care about that ship ability i guess.

R3 does nothing to the dial.

should be pretty mandatory on the new y-wing. on the other hand, i view it as pretty mandatory on most ships that can take it. i'd even venture to say it's pretty mandatory on the jumpmaster - and that ship cannot even take it. 🤬

I think matchstick will probably be very strong, for the reasons pointed already. If you're already bringing 2 torrent to serve as blocker / cheap filler, they don't mind using their locks on matchstick to give him extra reroll since they mostly take focus or evade action either way. Having a better version of V.1 predator is always good, especially with multiple attack, but hopefully that particular trick will have been exposed in playtesting and he'll cost more because of that.

6 hours ago, xanatos135 said:

Well, ok, of course it won't be that powerful but you know, it looks like cheating.

I don't think it looks like cheating in the way you mean. That locks are red tokens and that you can lock friendly ships are clearly spelled out in the rules. These aren't things buried in the umpteenth version of the FAQ. There is nothing you have to stretch or contort in the reading or interactions of upgrades or abilities to get the benefit. And it is a re-roll. It is not free hits or free criticals or additional paint results.

This ship also isn't really going to need your squadmates to give up locks on the enemy for the sake of picking up red tokens.

It is "cheating" more in the same sense that Maul pilot is "cheating" or what we might call an NPE though. Damaging Maul is something you need to do to win the game and your opponent gains benefit from that. Locking Matchstick is something that is arguable needed to win the game providing your opponent benefit. I find those sorts of things much more NPE and Matchstick is very mild even on that sort of NPE metric.

14 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It is "cheating" more in the same sense that Maul pilot is "cheating" or what we might call an NPE though. Damaging Maul is something you need to do to win the game and your opponent gains benefit from that. Locking Matchstick is something that is arguable needed to win the game providing your opponent benefit. I find those sorts of things much more NPE and Matchstick is very mild even on that sort of NPE metric.

🤨 Your issue isn't with Maul pilot, it is with Hate. Don't conflate the two.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Your issue isn't with Maul pilot, it is with Hate. Don't conflate the two.

Yes. I've incorrectly conflated the two. Thanks for the correction.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

I don't think it looks like cheating in the way you mean. That locks are red tokens and that you can lock friendly ships are clearly spelled out in the rules. These aren't things buried in the umpteenth version of the FAQ. There is nothing you have to stretch or contort in the reading or interactions of upgrades or abilities to get the benefit. And it is a re-roll. It is not free hits or free criticals or additional paint results.

This ship also isn't really going to need your squadmates to give up locks on the enemy for the sake of picking up red tokens.

It is "cheating" more in the same sense that Maul pilot is "cheating" or what we might call an NPE though. Damaging Maul is something you need to do to win the game and your opponent gains benefit from that. Locking Matchstick is something that is arguable needed to win the game providing your opponent benefit. I find those sorts of things much more NPE and Matchstick is very mild even on that sort of NPE metric.

Well, when I say it looks like cheating to me is because as I see it, Matchstick's flavour and design show a pilot that works better under stress, in difficult situations in general. So starting the game with his ability already activated because he is "threatened" by some squad mates locking him looks totally out of flavour and absurd. So forgetting about power level it just doesn't feel right to do it because it looks like that's not what you are supposed to be doing with this pilot, and it looks like something that should be forbidden in his ability text.

Regardless of whether or not you think the interaction is either thematic or appropriate, per the rules of the game , friendly locks do count towards Matchstick's count of red tokens. That's just how the game is right now. The rules are (at in this case) very clear about what locks are (tokens), what color they are (red), where you can put them (any non-self object within Range 0-3), and what Matchstick triggers off of (red tokens). Whether or not you like this implementation of the rules is not relevant... that's just how it works.

Time, of course, will tell if the ship is viable or not... it might be priced well outside of its usefulness, if not upon its release, then after any relevant point correction, or may require too many upgrades to make useful. It's highly susceptible to stress (given its comparatively awful maneuver dial), and as announced above, it does rely on its allies' locks to keep its ability freely. Plus, it's one, singular ship that gets its rerolls on only primary and turret attacks; you can neither bring a box of Matchsticks to the fight, or use him for an ordnance strike. And, of course, his ability doesn't work on his solitary green die for defense; this makes him a fairly melt-able target, if the situation presents itself.

TL;DR - Them's the rules, Matchstick works; find a way to beat him on the battlefield, instead of the courtroom.

6 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Regardless of whether or not you think the interaction is either thematic or appropriate, per the rules of the game , friendly locks do count towards Matchstick's count of red tokens. That's just how the game is right now. The rules are (at in this case) very clear about what locks are (tokens), what color they are (red), where you can put them (any non-self object within Range 0-3), and what Matchstick triggers off of (red tokens). Whether or not you like this implementation of the rules is not relevant... that's just how it works.

Time, of course, will tell if the ship is viable or not... it might be priced well outside of its usefulness, if not upon its release, then after any relevant point correction, or may require too many upgrades to make useful. It's highly susceptible to stress (given its comparatively awful maneuver dial), and as announced above, it does rely on its allies' locks to keep its ability freely. Plus, it's one, singular ship that gets its rerolls on only primary and turret attacks; you can neither bring a box of Matchsticks to the fight, or use him for an ordnance strike. And, of course, his ability doesn't work on his solitary green die for defense; this makes him a fairly melt-able target, if the situation presents itself.

TL;DR - Them's the rules, Matchstick works; find a way to beat him on the battlefield, instead of the courtroom.

Perfect 😃 after all these comments I feel confident now to bring that trick to the table and argue that it can be done with any oponent who questions it.