They said I was mad for buying a Punisher in 1.0.

When I bought two, they tried to have me committed.

When I bought three , they sent no less than the National Guard, FBI, CIA, NSA, and Paul Heaver to put me away for good.

But now it’s 2.0, and I’ll be the one who laughs last! So what if I missed the brief period of Redline domination; the chassis is at least semi-not-terrible, and priced to move! There’s just one problem: I can’t decide between two lists . I could definitely use a hand here.

List #1 runs two well-equipped generics alongside a Redline packing nasty toys. The idea is to lean pretty hard on the Target Locks (via Passive Sensors for the generics; via high-I for Redline) to unleash ordnance death at any range:

“Redline” (52)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Fifth Brother (9)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (38)
Passive Sensors (3)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Proximity Mines (6)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (38)
Passive Sensors (3)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Seismic Charges (3)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

List #2 shifts things around to accommodate Deathrain. It also takes more of a “set ‘em up/knock ‘em down” approach with the ordnance distribution. Everyone can still wreck face at any range, but Redline’s Plasma Torps are there to hopefully strip shields at high-I, while the generic’s Homing Missiles are there to push that one last damage through on stragglers:

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (38)
Passive Sensors (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Homing Missiles (5)

“Deathrain” (44)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

“Redline” (52)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Fifth Brother (9)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

I’m also open to other options, but I’m deffo in the mood to fly these three big uglies. Help me, Punisher friends!

Thoughts:

• I'd definitely, of the two, go for squad #2.
  • Redline is a default first choice for a missile- and torpedo-laden TIE/ca Capital Assault Heavy Bomber formation. I'm hesitant to pack multiple ordance types even on him, though...he's not that tough.
  • Cluster Missiles and Fifth Brother should give him moderately ridiculous firepower if used head-on. He's one of the few ships which can throw out both salvoes with a target lock and a force token. I'm not so sure he must have a long-ranged ordnance as well - since he can boost/lock/lock. I wouldn't want to 'just' give him Advanced Proton Torpedoes, because range 1 is a pretty small window, but range 1-2 isn't bad.
  • Deathrain feels like a better choice than a couple of generics. Yes, paired proton torpedoes are great but ultimately it's 4 dice with 'just' a target lock, and if using passive sensors a TIE/ca isn't enormously tougher than a B-wing. Deathrain can use bombs, boosts and other shenanigans to....not exactly "dogfight" but do a decent impression of doing so.
  • Deathrain also has a good source of free actions, and an extremely low agility....might be a decent candidate for Angled Deflectors.
  • I'd probably either keep the generic cheap and expendable (just a single missile type) or else move fifth brother there; with a double-modified torpedo, suddenly your 'generic' is also moderately threatening and your opponent no longer has one ship they can safely ignore.

Redline wants advanced sensors much more than fifth brother and proto torpedoes of course.

To me he doesn't need nothing more

He doesn't need fifth brother because he already can do focus and t.lock every roud.

Fifth brother is more useful on the passive cultass that otherwise couldn't double mod attacks but it is a little to expensive for a generic.....

I look at Redline and think... 5th Brother could be Advanced Sensors... I think I'd go with Diamond Boron Missiles or Plasma Torpedoes, though, just for the cheapness.

I think this would be my variant (not saying it'd be better, just that it'd suit me):

• Redline (Advanced Sensors, Plasma Torpedoes) 71
• Deathrain (Trajectory Simulator, Barrage Rockets, Seismic Charges, Proton Bombs, Delayed Fuses) 71
• Cutlass (Passive Sensors, Diamond Boron Missiles) 47
• There's actually 11 points of wiggle room left, but that's my core.
  • Only flew Delayed Fuses once (in Miranda/Dash in 2019!), but it felt good. You can drop a bomb now, while your ships are still in the blast radius, to set up for after you and your opponent both move. Maybe that causes your opponent to fly into a worse position, or else chase you through the explosion. If I'm taking a bomb-heavy build, I'm taking Fuses.
  • Skilled Bombardier would be a nice addition on Deathrain.
  • I kind of want to throw a bomb onto the Cutlass.
  • What @Manolox said about Fifth Brother is tempting, though... A Passive Sensors, Diamond Boron Missiles, 5th Brother Cutlass is 56 points, which isn't too expensive, and would fit in the above list...

Ooo, comments! Feedback! Ideas!!!

...some of which are contradictory. But no matter: as the song says, we can work it out .

Let’s start with one thing that sounds reasonable but doesn’t jive with something else that also sounds reasonable:

13 hours ago, Manolox said:

Redline wants advanced sensors much more than fifth brother and proto torpedoes of course.

To me he doesn't need nothing more

I’m having trouble with this in the context of the next suggestion, which indicates that there’d be value in his ability to boost in and double-lock candidates for two rounds of Cluster Missiles to the face—which wouldn’t work out with Adv.Sens.:

17 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Redline is a default first choice for a missile- and torpedo-laden TIE/ca Capital Assault Heavy Bomber formation. I'm hesitant to pack multiple ordance types even on him, though...he's not that tough.

...

I'm not so sure he must have a long-ranged ordnance as well - since he can boost/lock/lock. I wouldn't want to 'just' give him Advanced Proton Torp edoes, because range 1 is a pretty small window, but range 1-2 isn't bad.

These two things together leave me scratching my head a bit. Though I suppose it would be possible to do both (more or less) by following this list suggestion:

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

• Redline (Advanced Sensors, Plasma Torpedoes) 71
• Deathrain (Trajectory Simulator, Barrage Rockets, Seismic Charges, Proton Bombs, Delayed Fuses) 71
• Cutlass (Passive Sensors, Diamond Boron Missiles) 47
• There's actually 11 points of wiggle room left, but that's my core.

I could easily toss Cluster Missiles on this version of Redline and still have points to spare. I also value the feedback that Deathrain is worth it over another ProTorp Cutlass.

About Deathrain, though: I don’t have a copy of Delayed Fuses—how much of a problem is that? Also, what’s your thought process for chucking out Seismics versus Proton Bombs—I’ve never actually used TrajSim. And last but not least, is there any value in giving him a Skilled Bombardier to be able to chuck at a 4-speed instead of a 5-speed?

Thank you, my Punisher brethren. 😎

21 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I’m having trouble with [Advanced Sensors] in the context of the next suggestion, which indicates that there’d be value in his ability to boost in and double-lock candidates for two rounds of Cluster Missiles to the face—which wouldn’t work out with Adv.Sens.:

Boost and double-lock isn't easy, but Boost and single-lock works, due to Redline's lock not being an action.

21 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

About Deathrain, though: I don’t have a copy of Delayed Fuses—how much of a problem is that? Also, what’s your thought process for chucking out Seismics versus Proton Bombs—I’ve never actually used TrajSim. And last but not least, is there any value in giving him a Skilled Bombardier to be able to chuck at a 4-speed instead of a 5-speed?

Skilled Bombardier is a maybe, but it'll also be a risk with a 4-speed launch, since a 1-straight can easily move you into range to get exploded yourself. Extending a bomb back to range 2 backwards might also be handy. I don't think it's too important and can probably be cut pretty easily. But 2 points is fairly affordable.

Seismics are often safer to toss because of how they work. They'll detonate an obstacle at Range 1, so you can extend the range of your 5-speed launch to what works out closer to an 8-speed launch, in effect. This both helps keep Deathrain safe (since even a 1-straight can get caught in a Proton Bomb explosion), but greatly extends your threat range. Sometimes, though, you just need a crit.

For Delayed Fuses, I dunno, just proxy it. Outside of large tournaments, no one will care, and probably folks have a copy that could be borrowed. As to the necessity of the upgrade, it's hard to say, but I liked it in the one game I flew with it. Delayed Fuses is what I'd consider a geometric upgrade, one which depends on the on-board geometry, and those can only really be understood through play. The reason to take it is so that you can drop a bomb that will blow up in two turns. Maybe you have a good sense on where an enemy is going to be after moving twice, and know that you'll be out of the area by then, and can drop some bombs in advance. If you don't like proxying things, it's fine to cut it. I just think it's handy, and for 1 point, why not?

Last Deathrain note: it's pretty easy to just drop a bomb on Deathrain to get a bonus action, even if you don't intend to launch or to even hit anyone. Take a focus with the bomb drop, then move and lock or boost or whatever. Or bomb drop to activate a barrel roll and clear the stress. I've had friends, back before the January Adjustment when Punishers were far too cheap, who would drop bombs, get a movement action, then move and reload, just to marginally improve the position.

Thank you @theBitterFig ! I might see if I can dig up a copy of Delayed Fuses before my next game. Otherwise though, I’m pretty well sold on the recent ideas here, with the exception of being rather curious about the R1-2 specialist Redline. The following fits, though I’m not sure if giving up Redline’s R3 ordnance capability is wise.

It sure sounds fun, though...

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (38)
Passive Sensors (3)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Fifth Brother (9)

“Deathrain” (44)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)

“Redline” (52)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Seismics are often safer to toss because of how they work. They'll detonate an obstacle at Range 1, so you can extend the range of your 5-speed launch to what works out closer to an 8-speed launch, in effect. This both helps keep Deathrain safe (since even a 1-straight can get caught in a Proton Bomb explosion), but greatly extends your threat range.

With a squad built out of medium base, not especially manoeuvrable ships, don't underestimate the value of seismic charges which are not intended to hit an enemy, too. There can often be a game-winning positional advantage in "get-that-bloody-rock-out-of-my-bloody-way".

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Delayed Fuses is what I'd consider a geometric upgrade, one which depends on the on-board geometry, and those can only really be understood through play. The reason to take it is so that you can drop a bomb that will blow up in two turns. Maybe you have a good sense on where an enemy is going to be after moving twice, and know that you'll be out of the area by then, and can drop some bombs in advance. If you don't like proxying things, it's fine to cut it. I just think it's handy, and for 1 point, why not?

I think it's especially good with seismics, since (again) seismics are inherently flexible. Whilst obstacles can't be within range 1 of one another, a well-flung seismic charge can easily be within range 1 of 2 or (occasionally) even 3 obstacles, meaning that once you detonate you've got a lot of options for what the detonation pattern actually looks like. Pairing that with a one-turn 'hold' on the detonation gives you a sort of 'smart minefield'.

It also means that the bomb token will be there when your opponent next sets their dials. I assure you that a floating proton bomb is one of the best " let's not go that way " discouragements you can offer....

I really like the new squad layout.

5 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (38)
Passive Sensors (3)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Fifth Brother (9)

Whilst not a unique pilot, Fifth Brother gives you a force charge and a focus-to-critical modification, and passive sensors let you lock up anyone regardless of relative initiative.

Diamond-Boron Missiles are 'only' 3 dice, but with lock and fifth brother, that's still a lot better than a normal 3-dice primary shot, doesn't let your target claim a range bonus for being at range 3, and if you hit you can drop a charge for a bonus attack die of damage they can't evade. With the equivalent of 4-dice damage and a 60% change of a critical, they're pretty good at whalloping individual targets, but the 'blast' means they can turn their hand to thinning swarms as well, and fifth brother's force charge means it'll take a fair chunk of killing if you're using it defensively whilst reloading.

5 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

“Deathrain” (44)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)

Barrage Rockets are a nice, simple weapon. Yes, they need actions to work but Deathrain gets cheap free actions. With flexible munitions, you can lay bombs wherever you need them and thin out inconvenient terrain features (someone thinking they're going to hide behind a gas cloud for example!). Delayed Fuzes makes him even more flexible as and when you lay your mittens on a copy.

5 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

“Redline” (52)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Total: 199

Nice. This guy is basically hitting the gas and flying at the enemy screaming "to the face!!!!!" (using your linked boost, you actually move faster than a TIE striker in a dead run!). With advanced sensors, you can't be blocked (meaningfully), and will be able to plow into a blocking ship and still have a focus/locked advanced proton torpedo to kick in the teeth of whoever behind them was supposed to exploit the block (or lock/lock cluster missiles to go all John Woo on a pair of targets simultaneously. Advanced Sensors also lets you use your Koiogran turn and speed 3 turns as needed whilst still laying down effective ordnance fire. Don't expect Redline to survive, but I'd expect him to cause some pretty impressive damage before he goes down.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I really like the new squad layout.

Thanks! Your descriptions of what everyone’s useful for is getting me all excited about flying it! 😁

8 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Thank you @theBitterFig ! I might see if I can dig up a copy of Delayed Fuses before my next game. Otherwise though, I’m pretty well sold on the recent ideas here, with the exception of being rather curious about the R1-2 specialist Redline. The following fits, though I’m not sure if giving up Redline’s R3 ordnance capability is wise.

It sure sounds fun, though...

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (38)
Passive Sensors (3)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Fifth Brother (9)

“Deathrain” (44)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Barrage Rockets (8)
Proton Bombs (5)
Seismic Charges (3)

“Redline” (52)
Advanced Sensors (10)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Looks really clean.

And if Redline really needs Range 2-3, Plasma Torpedoes are an easy swap-in. Seems worth testing Cluster/APT, though.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think it's especially good with seismics, since (again) seismics are inherently flexible. Whilst obstacles can't be within range 1 of one another, a well-flung seismic charge can easily be within range 1 of 2 or (occasionally) even 3 obstacles, meaning that once you detonate you've got a lot of options for what the detonation pattern actually looks like. Pairing that with a one-turn 'hold' on the detonation gives you a sort of 'smart minefield'.

Yeah, that's pretty sweet.

Redline advanced sensor focus, target lock 4K over the opponent is really nice. You’re stressed going into the next round, though...

Would love to see how this list fares vs Nantexes.

Another approach would be to cut them back to just a single munitions each, and take a fourth ship .

Now that would be cool...

Only on Fly Casual so far, but Delayed Fuses on Deathrain is a wonderful thing. Milage will vary against different opponent lists but the ability to have two protons bracket one side of the board and detonating simultaneously (while you've already reloaded the first one and are firing into them with Deathrain turn 2) is a pretty solid "go through the asteroid field" signal.

Real opponents will understandably adjust early on to avoid one bomb, but might not see the second one coming, and shutting down, or at the very least heavily punishing (not apologising for that ), one approach vector is always useful even if it's only on one or two ships.