Mount Doom Impossible to Solo?

By gpd924, in Strategy and deck-building

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After over 25 tries of this scenario with 3 different decks from ringsDB, I am officially concluding that the quest is absolutely impossible to beat one-handed. This was the third (and now final) deck I tried:

http://ringsdb.com/decklist/view/6904/mount-doom-hobbits-1.0

It's a pretty bad deck for this quest. And keep in mind that I played this on "easy" mode where you remove the gold ring cards and start with an extra resource. There's definitely something wrong with this quest if you can't beat it after 25 tries using 3 different decks...on "easy"!

Unless anybody else has a deck that could beat this solo one-handed, I am now forced to try it out two-handed, which I don't have a problem with. I was just hoping to beat it solo, but we now know that the quest is definitely not meant to be beaten using only 1 deck. This makes thematic sense because both Frodo and Sam (2 players....2 decks) were involved with Mount Doom anyway.

Let's hope for the best with 2 decks! I'll be selling off my whole collection (which has everything to date) if this scenario can't be beaten.

Edited by gpd924
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Are you playing it in campaign mode or free standing?

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Just now, dalestephenson said:

Are you playing it in campaign mode or free standing?

Free standing (stand alone)

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Aren’t you doing something wrong?

I have beaten this quest solo in 4-5 rounds like 8 times.

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10 hours ago, Yepesnopes said:

Aren’t you doing something wrong?

I have beaten this quest solo in 4-5 rounds like 8 times.

Nope, not that I know of. If you've beaten it solo in 4-5 rounds 8 times, what is the exact deck-build you used? That would help.

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39 minutes ago, General_Grievous said:

Glad to hear it! It's a very tough quest!

You're not kidding! It was really fun with this particular deck. I've heard many people say it's a "race," like you should complete it in 5 or 6 rounds while keeping all the enemies in the staging area because if you don't, you won't beat it. With the above deck, you can beat it in almost 10 or so rounds if needed, and you can easily engage enemies (especially if/when you build up Elrond into an attack/defend quadruple-readying machine). I was at threat level of 89 when I won.

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10 rounds may probe to be too many rounds in order to be able to beat the black gate...

Edited by Yepesnopes
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double post? looks like an error

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Congratulations. Getting ten rounds in solo for Black Gate will be very tough, but since you weren't playing campaign mode you had time. Was this still on easy mode? I note your comments at ringsdb:

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Turn Elrond into an attachment machine (most important are 3 Unexpected Courage, Steward of Gondor is critical to give him the Gondor trait for other attachments, Light of Valinor, etc.). Always commit Denethor to the quest. His main function is to provide Elrond with a resource each round, particularly when Elrond has Heir of Mardil so that he can ready. Then with Gondorian Fire and Blood of Numenor on Elrond, he can attack and defend to kill every single enemy with no problems. With Elrond being powerful enough, you should always engage enemies whenever they pop up.

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Heavy and Tired would be a severe problem, though with Firyal that's less likely. I'm not sure why 3x Test of Will is in deck with the first treachery being uncancellable.

Always using Denethor to quest seems a bit odd since he only provides 1 wp (could get to 3 with Fellowship/Visionary but those are both 1x) -- what do you do if Little Snuffler comes out early? I love using Heir of Mardil to ready and LeDenethor is perfect for triggering that, but it can't be used at all until Steward is on Elrond. Steward/Heir/Blood/Fire is a four card combo and there's only one Heir of Mardil in the deck, even with Vilya, and Blood/Fire can't be played on Elrond until Steward is. Also note that if you have Steward/Heir, you don't *need* Denethor's ability to ready him, Steward can do that. (It does help for Blood/Fire, of course).

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12 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

Congratulations. Getting ten rounds in solo for Black Gate will be very tough, but since you weren't playing campaign mode you had time. Was this still on easy mode? I note your comments at ringsdb:

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Turn Elrond into an attachment machine (most important are 3 Unexpected Courage, Steward of Gondor is critical to give him the Gondor trait for other attachments, Light of Valinor, etc.). Always commit Denethor to the quest. His main function is to provide Elrond with a resource each round, particularly when Elrond has Heir of Mardil so that he can ready. Then with Gondorian Fire and Blood of Numenor on Elrond, he can attack and defend to kill every single enemy with no problems. With Elrond being powerful enough, you should always engage enemies whenever they pop up.

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Heavy and Tired would be a severe problem, though with Firyal that's less likely. I'm not sure why 3x Test of Will is in deck with the first treachery being uncancellable.

Always using Denethor to quest seems a bit odd since he only provides 1 wp (could get to 3 with Fellowship/Visionary but those are both 1x) -- what do you do if Little Snuffler comes out early? I love using Heir of Mardil to ready and LeDenethor is perfect for triggering that, but it can't be used at all until Steward is on Elrond. Steward/Heir/Blood/Fire is a four card combo and there's only one Heir of Mardil in the deck, even with Vilya, and Blood/Fire can't be played on Elrond until Steward is. Also note that if you have Steward/Heir, you don't *need* Denethor's ability to ready him, Steward can do that. (It does help for Blood/Fire, of course).

I don't play the optional campaign mode. I stick to stand-alone like the vast majority of the quests in the series.

Heavy and Tired was never a problem. I had Firyal out and that was avoided. She is equivalent to Power of Orthanc in that respect. I would say Firyal is much better than Orthanc because you also get questing power out of her and stays out on the table (she is an ally after all).

3X Test of Will wasn't entirely useless. I used 1 of them during the stage where treacheries were not immune to player card effects. They also make excellent discards for Daeron's Runes.

I didn't find using Denethor to always quest to be odd because it actually worked and helped move the game along. I can see how he could be an excellent defender with a defense value that's the same as Elrond's, and I did put a second copy of Gondorian Fire onto him, just in case, but I never used Denethor to defend whatsoever in the quest. He ended up having a +3 questing power with Visionary and Fellowship in play (I had Fellowship right in my opening hand, which was great).

Little Snuffler never came out early, so I can't comment on that. I imagine it wouldn't be that big of a problem. You really should mulligan for Steward of Gondor/Unexpected Courage/Vilya/Heir of Mardil/Shadowfax. Any card that allows you to ready a hero, in particular, absolutely must and should be in your opening hand, whether via initial draw or mulligan. The chances of this happening are rather excellent (including the chances of getting at least 2 of the aforementioned cards into your opening hand) because you have hero Gandalf who lets you basically have a seventh card in your hand (once per phase you can play it...for some reason, I feel like that could get errata'd, but hopefully not...it was fantastic to have a 0-cost card on top of my deck and to just put it into play during a future phase). [Interesting how you never discussed or gave credit to Gandalf in your reply, but no matter. His hero ability can't be underestimated.] So if Snuffler comes out in the first round, you can easily defend against his attacks. That Burning Brand is absolutely lovely on Elrond to basically discard shadow cards when he defends.

Thanks for the tip on Steward being able to ready a hero (with Mardil out)! That totally slipped my mind, but thankfully, I didn't need Steward's ability to do that. Denethor's resource transfer ability was enough.

Edited by gpd924
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Firyal is amazing, and well worth having despite the ally-hate. But I wasn't comparing Power of Orthanc to Firyal, I was comparing it to Test of Will. You can use Test of Will only for the *second* treachery in stages one and three, and on the first treachery in stage two -- a stage that should last exactly one turn. That's a pretty narrow window, and the ability of Test of Will to be Daeron's Runes fodder isn't much of a mark of favor, since it's not more useful in the discard than Power of Orthanc would be. There's ten redundant cards in the deck, so Daeron's Runes candidates shouldn't be short.

Of course, if you're playing on Easy Mode, there's only one Heavy and Tired in the deck, and Firyal might discard it (if out), or it might be discarded as a shadow or in a fortitude test, or it might just never show up at all. When the odds are low, it may be better to just decide the odds are on your side, ignore the treachery and just be content with restarting if you get unlucky. If it doesn't come out, Power of Orthanc is a dead card. But Power of Orthanc does have one big advantage over A Test of Will for combatting conditions in general -- it doesn't have to be in hand when the treachery comes out to do its job.

LeDenethor is a poor quester, and getting to 3 willpower requires 2 cards that were 1x in that deck -- it worked out well that you had them, but it wasn't likely. He also starts with better Blood/Fire chops since he's already Gondor and with 3 resources. Elrond is an excellent quester, so despite having better hp/attack and being Lore, reserving Elrond for combat costs you two willpower, unless you have Light of Valinor (another 1x). And even with Light of Valinor, exhaustion for combat is exhaustion not used for Vilya or fortitude checks.

OTOH, Steward on Denethor would only make him excellent at combat, while Elrond can at least pay for Firyal and Glorfindel -- so resources are more valuable on Elrond than Denethor. Depending on what's in hand when Steward comes up, it's certainly not a bad choice to stack up Elrond, but Denethor's not worth much in this deck until Steward comes out. I think Arwen would likely make the deck stronger.

Discarding shadows with A Burning Brand is certainly wonderful, but I don't think the shadows in this quest are particular dangerous to a Blood defender.

I didn't discuss Gandalf because I took his excellence with Vilya and Expert-Treasure Hunter for granted. I'll grant there's a lot of readying in this deck, and that's certainly important. But of the mulligan cards you mentioned, Heir of Mardil is 1x and utterly useless until Steward of Gondor is played. Unexpected Courage can't be played unless it's the 8th card (or you're playing on easy mode, and also have Vilya). Steward of Gondor can be played immediately on Elrond, which in easy mode would let you play Glorfindel or Firyal -- if those are absent, it's not likely to be of immediate use, unless Blood and Fire are in hand. Shadowfax is playable, but is expensive readying for a hero less valuable to ready than loaded-down Elrond. I'd probably mulligan for Vilya and only Vilya, unless Steward happened to come up with Mardil or Glorfindel or Firyal.

If Snuffler comes out turn one he's lower than your threat and will engage. Of course, both Gandalf and Elrond can take him undefended once, so it's not the end of the world if he comes out and you leave no one ready for defense, and they're reduced to 2 copies in easy mode. But he'll be hard to kill until Fire comes out. With the high starting threat, it won't be long until the Uruks engage, and their numbers aren't reduced in easy mode.

It's a tough quest -- but my impression is that *most* players of it are campaign players, and there was much disgruntlement when the quest came out and people found that their ally-heavy decks that had carried them through the past 19 quests were suddenly useless against this one. That also meant most players were constrained by the number of turns from Black Gate Opens, not at all a one-deck-friendly quest. So *in a campaign setting* the super-high-willpower hobbit with lots of readying is very attractive when you have six rounds to beat the quest or you lose, especially if you didn't manage to knock off the stupid Wraiths With Wings in Black Gate Opens. I think this deck is less likely than JusticeLizard's deck to win in six rounds, its top-end willpower is too limited and while there's plenty of readying for Elrond in the deck, he's reliant on three 1x cards to get his willpower above 3!

But as a non-campaign player, only the Dire limit matters -- and without the campaign burdens, having an exhausted ring is less of a handicap. It's certainly plausible that this is a much better deck *for you* than JusticeLizard's deck.

Edited by dalestephenson
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Ok, so a huge red warning flag went up, and that was your last sentence. Why bring the JusticeLizard deck into this when the deck was not discussed, mentioned, or linked to at all in this entire discussion thread? It's very apparent that the comment is of a baiting nature, since you were also active in the thread where it was mentioned. Not too good since it's reportable. You definitely seem to highly defend JL's deck in the penultimate paragraph. " I think this deck is less likely than JusticeLizard's deck to win in six rounds." I don't care if it can be won in 6 rounds, 15 rounds, or 1 round. The fact is the deck I used beat it. If it can beat the quest, I don't care how many rounds it takes. Another conundrum is why you feel the need to strongly defend his deck when it isn't even your own.

It's also not worth going into further analysis of the deck I used. It seems like you have more negative criticism for it than positive, first of all. Secondly, from what I gather, it doesn't appear that you have tried the deck out for yourself...just made some assumptions on what could work, might not work, is a poor addition, etc. Lots of criticism without actually playing the deck(s) falls flat.

Fact of the matter is that I beat the quest with the deck *I* used, and that's all I care about. Is it more effective than JL's deck? Absolutely. I played with both of the decks, and that's my final conclusion. Defend his deck all you want. There are some nice things about it, but overall, I don't advocate for it with this quest. The deck I used is far superior, speaking from actual play experience.

Edited by gpd924
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I’m just curious (and I really don’t feel like getting into a debate again), but how do you conclude that one deck is superior to another?

Is it from your play experience alone, or from the play experience (and deck-building expertise) of the entire community that has played Mount Doom. I can’t disagree that JL’s deck didn’t work out for you, so the deck you did beat mount doom with is indeed more helpful to you. But the majority of players used JL’s deck to much better effect against Mount Doom. To boil it down:

9 hours ago, gpd924 said:

I don't advocate for it with this quest. The deck I used is far superior, speaking from actual play experience.

Just because one deck didn’t accomplish what you wanted it to, doesn’t mean it is automatically a worse deck for all the other players who beat Mount Doom with it just fine. You are one player out of many, and you cannot decide what deck is better for everyone else based solely on your own experience.

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My interest is discussing deck strategy, not discussing you. You may only care about your own experiences, but those reading the thread may be more interested in looking for a deck *they* can beat Mount Doom with, and if they are campaign players (this is common) then *speed* is likely to be a consideration for them.

It's true you've played both of these decks and I have played neither. You've played openMfly's deck exactly once (in easy mode?) and by your own description got lucky, getting the only card in the deck in that boosts all hero's willpower in your opening hand. You also got a treachery in the one and only round where treacheries can be freely cancelled with A Test of Will. You've played JusticeLizard's deck five times, but have shown absolutely no interesting in discussing specifics on *why* you failed with the deck or what you see as its weaknesses. This is a strategy forum -- this is not the place to just throw out rankings and object to anyone who says otherwise. This is the place to discuss *why* things work, or alternately and just as importantly, why they *don't* work. And deck discussion here would be sparse indeed if everyone was required to play a deck in order to comment on it.

I advise you to abandon the idea that questioning the utility of cards or suggesting optimization constitutes an attack on a deck, or is inherently "negative". Optimization is optional in this game! My own original decks revolve around unlikely combos and unappreciated heroes, practically every one could be "improved" easily. But that's not the point. openFly's deck is very good, and the Vilya/Gandalf combo is the most powerful archtype in the game. It does a lot of things well for this quest and most of the cards I'm not questioning. It's true that I'm passing over as obvious the benefits of cards like Firyal, and Glorfindel, Expert-Treasure Hunter, Miruvor. My comments are hardly intended to tweak you and defend the honor of JusticeLizard's deck -- you may have missed this by abandoning the other thread in a snit, but there I questioned the utility of SpMerry's ability and A Test of Will. You know *both* decks rely on Steward/Blood/Fire for combat, right?

This is what I would consider an attack on a deck: "This deck is terrible, no one should play it". I think that's obnoxious, especially if accompanied by no specific criticism and said about a deck someone else has already won with. But as worthless as that hypothetical post might be, I don't think it violates the terms of service for the forum. If you think that I have violated terms in my posts, feel free to report me; if Asmodee agrees with you I will cease contributing.

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5 hours ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

I’m just curious (and I really don’t feel like getting into a debate again), but how do you conclude that one deck is superior to another?

Is it from your play experience alone, or from the play experience (and deck-building expertise) of the entire community that has played Mount Doom. I can’t disagree that JL’s deck didn’t work out for you, so the deck you did beat mount doom with is indeed more helpful to you. But the majority of players used JL’s deck to much better effect against Mount Doom. To boil it down:

Just because one deck didn’t accomplish what you wanted it to, doesn’t mean it is automatically a worse deck for all the other players who beat Mount Doom with it just fine. You are one player out of many, and you cannot decide what deck is better for everyone else based solely on your own experience.

And the baiting continues...the moderators have been made aware. Needed to inform them in case anybody goes report-happy.

*Notifications will turn off after this so I will not be replying. I do not tolerate being notified about threads that contribute substantive nonsense...lots of words, looks good, but very superfluous.*

"But the majority of players used JL's deck to much better effect against Mount Doom."

This statement really holds no water. I do not see ANY proof that the "majority of players" used this to "much better effect." RingsDB doesn't have any of those statistics. The deck only has 7 heart-likes, too. The statement above really is so ludicrous that it's worth not contributing further to any of this discussion.

"...doesn't mean it is automatically a worse deck for all the other players..."

*for all the other players*....I never said it's worse *for all the other players*. If I think it's a bad deck, I think it's a bad deck. For ME , it's a bad deck, and there's nothing you will EVER do to change that. I don't support using it either. I still stand by what I say whether you like it or not. I do what works for me, and that's my good friend, openMfly's, deck. Period.

Thank you for reading, thank you for playing.

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Not that heart-likes is a valid measurement of deck strength, but as of this morning openMfly's deck had only one like. (It now has three, one is from me and perhaps the other is from gpd924).

Since he has stated his intention to abandon this thread as he did the other, I wonder what the point of him making sure "the moderators have been aware". Who would report whom, and for what?

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18 hours ago, gpd924 said:

" I think this deck is less likely than JusticeLizard's deck to win in six rounds." I don't care if it can be won in 6 rounds, 15 rounds, or 1 round. The fact is the deck I used beat it. If it can beat the quest, I don't care how many rounds it takes.

I failed to respond to this above. The fact is, if you're playing campaign it *does* matter how many rounds it takes. I'm openly contempuous of the official scoring and don't generally care how long a deck takes, or how many heroes it loses, or what the final threat was -- but it's a factor that absolutely has to be taken into consideration when discussing Mount Doom in general, even if non-campaign players of that quest don't care.

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5 hours ago, gpd924 said:

For ME , it's a bad deck

Sigh.

That's all you needed to realize. Took long enough.

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He always manages to leave the discussions before it is too late and he would turn into stone. This one won’t fall for Bilbo’s trick!