So, the AMA has posited a few interesting concepts for me.

1. The Rebel and Imperial factions are seemingly being viewed as "complete," with the exception of a few ships that may pop up in future Disney releases. Scum is getting a little more attention only because it is an era-less faction that can capture stuff from almost anything.

1A. This likely means that things like the TIE Hunter are probably never going to happen, unless it shows up in something canon.

2. Card packs are an experiment in allowing the OT factions to grow without new models.

3. FFG considers XWM most viable in the future based upon the newer factions, likely because they need ships. This is where they are going to spend their time, for the most part. But at some point, they will be "full," too.

This makes me think that the long term future of X-Wing is not going to be the models and a new rule set, but rather the ancillary products: card packs, themed expansions, missions, battles-in-a-box, etc.

At some point, there is really no need to produce new ships for a faction unless you retire a similar ship. Like subbing the Squint for the Hunter. Or card packs that just keep filling in the pilots and upgrades possible for the extant ships. No new models, but a greater density of pilots for stuff we have.

How To Play With Your Ships may become more important than Here, Have Another Ship .

Or does the game just end when there are 15 ships per faction, thanks to SKU bloat and perceived completeness?

The addition of subtitles to pilots in 2.0 could have been done in preparation for this "card packs only" future. They could keep releasing pilots, even the same pilots we already have, but with different abilities, just changing their subtitle.

For example, in addition to Luke Skywalker "Red Five", we could have Luke Skywalker "Jedi Master" with 3 Force instead of 2, and different ability.

the Empire will not be complete until I can put tie brutes on the table.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This makes me think that the long term future of X-Wing is not going to be the models and a new rule set, but rather the ancillary products: card packs, themed expansions, missions, battles-in-a-box, etc.

<snip>

How To Play With Your Ships may become more important than Here, Have Another Ship .

I know I expressed concern in another thread about if game stores would keep supporting it for card packs at a time, but I actually like it when put into this context (the minis are what they are, and you have more ways to use them).

I would gladly buy more campaign boxes, mission boxes etc. I really hope epic sells well enough for ffg that they agree and do more of them for us. That would do more for game stores (and the game) than the smaller $20 card packs we discussed before in the other thread

2 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

the Empire will not be complete until I can put tie brutes on the table.

They did say that there's an obvious Imperial ship coming next year. Seems the right fit.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

I know I expressed concern in another thread about if game stores would keep supporting it for card packs at a time

I realize you’re not necessarily supporting this idea in this post, but another thought on the issue: moving to more card packs and fewer ships might be easier for game stores to support..? I know there are a couple stores around here with some 1e X-Wing product, and it seems reasonable to be wary of buying more ships if they’re going to collect dust on store shelves.

Probably wouldn’t be that different, really, but it was a thought I had.

18 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I realize you’re not necessarily supporting this idea in this post, but another thought on the issue: moving to more card packs and fewer ships might be easier for game stores to support..? I know there are a couple stores around here with some 1e X-Wing product, and it seems reasonable to be wary of buying more ships if they’re going to collect dust on store shelves.

Probably wouldn’t be that different, really, but it was a thought I had.

I think the reason they’re stuck with 1e is nobody wants to pay full retail for ships they then have to buy the conversion for.

I feel for the game stores, but the only way to cycle them out is clearance and try to move the second edition at full price. At least I can’t think of another way. My LGS has both editions taking up space. The 2.0 inventory is different every time I go, but the 1,0 skus don’t move.

As far as “will card packs support the store?”, I’m not sure... you have to have physical models for the newcomers, or for folks who want to add a ship. Maybe it ends up being easier, maybe it doesn’t. All depends on the size of the store and the size of the community buyin xwing I guess.

I hope that whatever happens, it’s such that X-Wing can continue to grow and thrive.

There are as of yet a few things I want to see added to the OG factions... But they are very far and few between. Krennic's shuttle, the TIE/rb and the Sentinel shuttle are genuinely the only truly canon units I can actually think of adding.

But The Rebellion is complete. Save the T-47 Airspeeder there is not a single fighter or smaller vessel missing in The Rebellion's arsenal, and that doesn't even count. You could deign to add the N1, I guess. Sure. Maybe other Clone Wars vessels. Personally I'd like the YKL-37R Nova Courier, but it's not even canon so, very unlikely.

But aside from that they're complete.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

There are as of yet a few things I want to see added to the OG factions... But they are very far and few between. Krennic's shuttle, the TIE/rb and the Sentinel shuttle are genuinely the only truly canon units I can actually think of adding.

But The Rebellion is complete. Save the T-47 Airspeeder there is not a single fighter or smaller vessel missing in The Rebellion's arsenal, and that doesn't even count. You could deign to add the N1, I guess. Sure. Maybe other Clone Wars vessels. Personally I'd like the YKL-37R Nova Courier, but it's not even canon so, very unlikely.

But aside from that they're complete.

But muh H-wing and Muh Tie Avenger.

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I think the reason they’re stuck with 1e is nobody wants to pay full retail for ships they then have to buy the conversion for.

I feel for the game stores, but the only way to cycle them out is clearance and try to move the second edition at full price. At least I can’t think of another way. My LGS has both editions taking up space. The 2.0 inventory is different every time I go, but the 1,0 skus don’t move.

As far as “will card packs support the store?”, I’m not sure... you have to have physical models for the newcomers, or for folks who want to add a ship. Maybe it ends up being easier, maybe it doesn’t. All depends on the size of the store and the size of the community buyin xwing I guess.

I hope that whatever happens, it’s such that X-Wing can continue to grow and thrive.

I think that XWM needs to move past the idea of permanent SKUs.

Card packs and missions are ideal products for that. They exist for a year or two, and then are replaced by the next iteration. No bloat, fresh product, and can also allow FFG to rearrange access to cards they would like to see in the meta.

Repaints could even be included in the missions as a perk in the box, but since it's a repaint no one misses out when it goes away, and no one needs to buy the mission just for the mini.

Alt arts could drive pack sales, but I'm not sure how much that would tick off the tournament crowd. Or squadron packs: make card packs themed around units of fighters, with missing pilots, ideal upgrades for those ships, unique upgrades that work just in that squadron, and the like. Make one Squadron Card Pack per faction, and rotate yearly.

Hmm. I was okay collecting Clone War stuff to keep current for when new Imperial stuff is released but if this is it I might be jumping ship. Shame.

This is probably crazy, maybe game stores could sell to... new players.

Also, all old players will eventually want more copies of ships they already have. Like... why shouldn't I try flying six HWK-290s?

I definitely see card packs and scenario packs being what keeps X-Wing going and the physical model productions reducing after a while. There will always be a need for more models: new players coming to the scene, current players wanting to try something new, or to flat out replace a lost or broken models/dials.

"But what can these theoretical card packs provide us if all ships are made for existing factions?!" you may be asking and screaming at top of the highest mountain hoping some supernatural higher being will answer your question.
Well, I can only hypothesize that they'd include updated or alternate versions of existing pilots with new abilities and/or different initiatives to represent them at a different point in the saga. While we already kinda have this with the Republic with Anakin Skywalker, let's drag his son into this. So, the Luke we have now is pretty much Death Star assault Luke. We could see a 3 Force Initiative 6 Luke representing him post Yavin 4.

Sticking with the Rebellion, we could see all new cardboard for existing models! Right now, the Rebel X-Wings are labeled T-65 X-Wings. We could see an "Advanced Starfighter" pack that could come with new cardboard for classic ships that may be lacking in comparison to new ships or disappearing from the Meta. For the X-Wing, we could get T-65B X-Wing cardboard, pilot cards, and maybe new dials if needed. (Similarly, this could be a way to get a recolored X-Wing model for a limited run) These could add in new ship abilities that aren't available on the original ship and/or new stats while not invalidating the original ship cards... or instead of all that, if it's a more simple fix, add all that to a new configuration or title card for the ship. Again, taking the X-Wing as an example, it gets a new configuration card called "S-Foils to Attack Position!" which adds a red die when S-Foils are open, but makes it's barrel roll red. (Again, NOT advocating this as an ACTUAL card, just as an example).

Seriously, if each ship could be one of TWO ships, everyone's fleet grows as do their options. New maneuvers can be retrofit onto existing dials with fix cards or, again, new dials if a ship variant is drastically different from the existing ship... or just baked into the rules. So, say FFG introduces a 4 bank (something I would LOVE as well), a rule could be that a ship may perform a 4 bank one difficulty harder than their 5 straight. So, what does this mean? If you have a blue 5, that ship now has a white 4 bank. A red 5 straight? A purple 4 bank.

****, scenario packs are pretty self explanatory... but man, would I kill for an official multi-mission, branching campaign.

I honestly don't think a third edition of the game is needed ANYTIME soon as there are plenty of ways to extend the life of the game and still keep it fresh with the systems we have now in 2E. Fluid point costs were a great start, and while "fix" cards and all that would cause card bloat, it would be no where near as bad as it was getting as 1E was at the end of it's life.

8 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

But muh H-wing and Muh Tie Avenger.

TIE Avenger I'll grant you.

I think the biggest thing is, waves need to just not go out of print, period.

I want to see XWMG get to a point where stuff is just kept in stock for as many waves as a store can realistically hold. You know how they've got those walls for D&D minis you can paint? I wanna see those for X-Wing. Kind of a long ways off, but I want to see that.

For a miniatures game to survive, it must produce new miniatures that people want to buy.

For people to want to buy new miniatures, they have to be better and/or more interesting than what they already own.

This is why 40k, after 30 years, suddenly had the Space Marines "discover" a new super space marine that is just better than a normal space marine in the latest edition. Now people who already have 1000 space marines suddenly need new ones to be the best they can be.

It's an essential strategy to keep the game line making money. Which is good for the life of the product. Lines with low sales get dropped (or are suddenly "complete").

8 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I honestly don't think a third edition of the game is needed ANYTIME soon as there are plenty of ways to extend the life of the game and still keep it fresh with the systems we have now in 2E. Fluid point costs were a great start, and while "fix" cards and all that would cause card bloat, it would be no where near as bad as it was getting as 1E was at the end of it's life.

They are already introducing new systems to the game (strain, deplete) which is the sort of rules bloat that leads to a new edition. We got second edition partially because Jam and Reinforce and Coordinate and mobile arcs all got added to the game late in the development cycle and it was getting more ridiculous that only Wookiees and huge ships could Reinforce their shields.

Every time a mechanic gets added that requires reading the rules and not just the cards, we get a step closer to the next edition. Fine-Tuned Controls is a good example of a new mechanic that does not create rules bloat; everything you need to know is on the ship card. Vonreg is not. He has two new words in his ship ability that are not in the rulebook, which means the rulebook needs to be updated (obviously strain already made it in with Wave 3). And then the rulebook starts to have rules that only apply to ships released after a certain point and someone in design says "Hey, wouldn't it make more sense if Poe used strain for his extra action instead of stress?" (for example) and we get another step closer to a new edition.

We haven't even had the full re-release of second edition before discussing third edition. I know the intent of the other thread is just a what-if, but that feels like insanity to me. There's a lot they can do with 2.0 still.

4 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

For a miniatures game to survive, it must produce new miniatures that people want to buy.

For people to want to buy new miniatures, they have to be better and/or more interesting than what they already own.

I reject this as necessarily true. It becomes true only when the only product of the game is miniatures. If the game product is rotating missions or campaign boxes, the minis are still around for new players or for veterans who suddenly want extra copies.

It was true for 1.0 because that’s all they had. If epic missions plus the card packs do well, that may not stay true in 2.0

11 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I definitely see card packs and scenario packs being what keeps X-Wing going and the physical model productions reducing after a while. There will always be a need for more models: new players coming to the scene, current players wanting to try something new, or to flat out replace a lost or broken models/dials.

Seriously, if each ship could be one of TWO ships, everyone's fleet grows as do their options. New maneuvers can be retrofit onto existing dials with fix cards or, again, new dials if a ship variant is drastically different from the existing ship... or just baked into the rules. So, say FFG introduces a 4 bank (something I would LOVE as well), a rule could be that a ship may perform a 4 bank one difficulty harder than their 5 straight. So, what does this mean? If you have a blue 5, that ship now has a white 4 bank. A red 5 straight? A purple 4 bank.

With ship abilities baked-in, I definitely see this as a thing. Let's get the TIE Shuttle, the Defender x7, and the Y-Wing BTL-S3 and the B-Wing E2 back in the game. And instead of stapling a title on the current chassis, make these variants new pilot cards. It gives FFG a little more balance control, and could allow new pilots to be added with new abilities that better line up with the variant. Heck, it could even be a new Card Pack: Fighter Subtypes.

8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I think the biggest thing is, waves need to just not go out of print, period.

I want to see XWMG get to a point where stuff is just kept in stock for as many waves as a store can realistically hold . You know how they've got those walls for D&D minis you can paint? I wanna see those for X-Wing. Kind of a long ways off, but I want to see that.

I wonder how many FLGS owners would be excited to see 17 ships per faction (Rebels current total} x 7 factions = 119 ship expacs + 5 Huge expacs + Core Set + Card Packs + ConKits + Campaign Box + Dice Pack + Range Rule Pack, + ??? clogging up their shelves ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

Not many, I'm going to guess. First of all, they probably don't have the room (I know mine doesn't}, and secondly it's a massive capital outlay.

2 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

For a miniatures game to survive, it must produce new miniatures that people want to buy.

False. It must produce material that keeps people wanting to play with their miniatures. That might be a new mini, or it might be an update for an existing mini, or it might be something like a scenario.

Quote

For people to want to buy new miniatures, they have to be better and/or more interesting than what they already own.

This is why 40k, after 30 years, suddenly had the Space Marines "discover" a new super space marine that is just better than a normal space marine in the latest edition. Now people who already have 1000 space marines suddenly need new ones to be the best they can be.

It's an essential strategy to keep the game line making money. Which is good for the life of the product . Lines with low sales get dropped (or are suddenly "complete").

Power creep is NOT essential to keeping a game alive. It is what very nearly killed XWM the first time and FFG would do well to avoid it.

1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

We haven't even had the full re-release of second edition before discussing third edition. I know the intent of the other thread is just a what-if, but that feels like insanity to me. There's a lot they can do with 2.0 still.

That's a bit of my point. Having walls of minis gathering dust in FLGSs isn't going to keep XWM alive as well as making 2.0 a "Minis + Adventures" game. We got the minis; we need the adventures. That's the part that hopefully will sell to keep XWM going instead of MOAR POWARZ WIT MUH MINIZ!!!

I'd love to see the game get to the point of:

It's XWM night. Shall we play the Trench Run? Battle of Scarif? Endor?? The next campaign mission?? Environment cards?? Planetary Atmo effects? Or just keep it simple and play Standard?

15 hours ago, All Shields Forward said:

Hmm. I was okay collecting Clone War stuff to keep current for when new Imperial stuff is released but if this is it I might be jumping ship. Shame.

Bummer for you, I guess.

After 5 years the Imperial, and having a blast exploring the Republic, enough that it comes with a side of guilt that I'm "betraying" my original faction.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

After 5 years the Imperial, and having a blast exploring the Republic, enough that it comes with a side of guilt that I'm "betraying" my original faction.

Betraying? Nah, you're just slumming it with the Alpha version of the Galactic Empire. Tyrannies are tyrannies regardless of the number of heads the beasts have.

I think as long as there are 2-5 “staples” of miniature SKUs per faction “in stock” at the LGS, and the means to order the others special, that’s fine. Then just rotate things in you don’t NEED to have to play, but make the experience unique and fun.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

I think as long as there are 2-5 “staples” of miniature SKUs per faction “in stock” at the LGS, and the means to order the others special, that’s fine. Then just rotate things in you don’t NEED to have to play, but make the experience unique and fun.

And this still asks stores to stock 25-35 XWM items, which I think is far more realistic for most FLGSs.

Been saying this forever. We need more ways to play with what we have. Not make new overpowered stuff.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

With ship abilities baked-in, I definitely see this as a thing. Let's get the TIE Shuttle, the Defender x7, and the Y-Wing BTL-S3 and the B-Wing E2 back in the game. And instead of stapling a title on the current chassis, make these variants new pilot cards. It gives FFG a little more balance control, and could allow new pilots to be added with new abilities that better line up with the variant. Heck, it could even be a new Card Pack: Fighter Subtypes.

I wonder how many FLGS owners would be excited to see 17 ships per faction (Rebels current total} x 7 factions = 119 ship expacs + 5 Huge expacs + Core Set + Card Packs + ConKits + Campaign Box + Dice Pack + Range Rule Pack, + ??? clogging up their shelves ALL THE FREAKING TIME.

Not many, I'm going to guess. First of all, they probably don't have the room (I know mine doesn't}, and secondly it's a massive capital outlay.

False. It must produce material that keeps people wanting to play with their miniatures. That might be a new mini, or it might be an update for an existing mini, or it might be something like a scenario.

Power creep is NOT essential to keeping a game alive. It is what very nearly killed XWM the first time and FFG would do well to avoid it.

That's a bit of my point. Having walls of minis gathering dust in FLGSs isn't going to keep XWM alive as well as making 2.0 a "Minis + Adventures" game. We got the minis; we need the adventures. That's the part that hopefully will sell to keep XWM going instead of MOAR POWARZ WIT MUH MINIZ!!!

I'd love to see the game get to the point of:

It's XWM night. Shall we play the Trench Run? Battle of Scarif? Endor?? The next campaign mission?? Environment cards?? Planetary Atmo effects? Or just keep it simple and play Standard?

Bummer for you, I guess.

After 5 years the Imperial, and having a blast exploring the Republic, enough that it comes with a side of guilt that I'm "betraying" my original faction.

As a loyal Imperial officer, you can just argue that, as the Empire is the legitimate successor government to (and therefore a legal continuation of) the Old Republic, that you aren't betraying your original faction, just playing an earlier version of it.

This argument is utter hogwash, as all true patriots of the Rebel Alliance can explain, but whatever eases your XWMG crisis of conscience.