here's the card:



i'm mostly interested in the first paragraph:
"Action: Spend 1 . You can only perform this action in your Perform Action step."

the wording here seems very ambiguous. obviously, it means you cannot perform the action itself outside of your perform action step. my question is, could it also mean that you cannot perform other actions in your perform action step?

to clarify, the sentence is part of the action itself, so i'm not asking if you're allowed to perform other actions at all, since that is clearly the case. you can still perform another action or more instead of using the action on passive sensors. the question is, if you use the passive sensors action, could you also trigger something like autothrusters, refined gyrostabilizers, fine tuned controls or darth vaders pilot ability to perform another action during the same perform action step that you used the passive sensors action?

i'm of the opinion that yes, you are allowed to perform other actions during the same perform action step that you use passive sensors, since the text does not mention other actions like for example advanced sensors does.

now, i am well aware that the only ship and pilot that this is currently relevant for is darth vader, since there are no other ships in the game with a sensor slot that have an ability that lets it perform additional actions during its perform action step, as far as i know (woops, IG88C is in the game i guess).

i am also well aware that the whole point of using passive sensors on vader is to let vader perform additional actions before he engages, after being granted the calculate or lock action from having the passive sensors charge inactive, but it may still be relevant in some cases.

your thoughts, please.

No.

I mean, I guess there's a way to read it that Vader wouldn't work. I wouldn't have noticed it if it wasn't pointed out, though. And to read it that way obliterates the straightforward meaning that this action cannot be performed at some other time. I don't think it's possible to hold both meanings at the same time.

IMHO, this isn't a case of bad or ambiguous writing from FFG (although they've done enough of that). There's a way to break nearly anything, if approached with enough destructive intent.

22 minutes ago, meffo said:

could it also mean that you cannot perform other actions in your perform action step?

No, nothing on the card prevents you from taking other actions except that you cannot be coordinated while the charge is inactive.

Two related things though:

1. You can be coordinated before you spend the charge (or after you recover it, if there was a coordinate with that timing). You can't be coordinated to take the Passive Sensor action, since the coordinate isn't in your Perform Action step.
2. It's possible to spend the charge during the Perform Action step and not be able to take the calculate or lock before you engage. Since you need to perform an action at the start of your Engagement Phase, if you take stress (say from Ventress or 0-0-0) you wouldn't be able to perform the action.

32 minutes ago, Nspace said:

No, nothing on the card prevents you from taking other actions except that you cannot be coordinated while the charge is inactive.

Two related things though:

1. You can be coordinated before you spend the charge (or after you recover it, if there was a coordinate with that timing). You can't be coordinated to take the Passive Sensor action, since the coordinate isn't in your Perform Action step.
2. It's possible to spend the charge during the Perform Action step and not be able to take the calculate or lock before you engage. Since you need to perform an action at the start of your Engagement Phase, if you take stress (say from Ventress or 0-0-0) you wouldn't be able to perform the action.

thank you for your thoughts.

a few points on the related things you mention:
1. you can't be coordinated while the charge is inactive, but you could still be coordinated to take the passive sensors action, if you coordinate a ship that coordinates you back during your perform action step.
2. you could also fail the lock action (although unlikely) or just decline to take an action all together. since the card uses the word "may" it's optional to perform the calculate or lock action. you could also get stressed and still perform the action, if there is another ability in play that would let you perform the action even while stressed (contraband cybernetics). you could also miss the trigger, which is easily done since it's done "before you engage" and not at the start of the engagement phase (this is super crucial for how the card works and a big reason why it's not as good on low initiative ships like zeta squadron survivors as it is on someone like vader, since you can easily get shot before you even get a chance to lock or calculate if your initiative is lower).

It’s ambiguous. Standard FFG and easily fixed. Could have been written “This action can only be performed in your Perform Action step.” This would be clear and not open to multiple interpretations.

That's not what that sentence even means.

"You can perform only this action during your perform action step." would be the correct syntax for the meaning you are trying to interpret.

It's the same wording as Ionised, which to me means you can't link off it or use ship abilities off it. Ionised limits you only to a single focus action, even if you have ways to use that to trigger more. Same would seem to apply here.

36 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's the same wording as Ionised, which to me means you can't link off it or use ship abilities off it. Ionised limits you only to a single focus action, even if you have ways to use that to trigger more. Same would seem to apply here.

"You can only perform this during", versus "during, you can only perform this"

True.

IDK then. FFG sucks at this, ask them, expect an answer in 6 months if their questions form is even working at the moment.

thinks like this makes me think we should probably start doing polls to find out what people really think. there are several problems with that as well, though.

thank you for your input, @Rettere , @Tvboy , @thespaceinvader and @svelok .

43 minutes ago, meffo said:

thinks like this makes me think we should probably start doing polls to find out what people really think. there are several problems with that as well, though.

thank you for your input, @Rettere , @Tvboy , @thespaceinvader and @svelok .

Yeah. Isn't that pretty much how the unofficial rules document works? And there are glaring errors in that just because the community "agreed to it".

5 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Yeah. Isn't that pretty much how the unofficial rules document works? And there are glaring errors in that just because the community "agreed to it".

not to my knowledge, no. that's pretty much consensus between a few people. and yes, there are a lot of glaring errors in it, including how vader works and other things.

Yeah, this is just a grammar glitch. It should read "you can perform this action only during". Kinda like how YOLO should be "You live only once" to have its intended meaning, but we've collectively decided through many such examples that we don't care about this particular grammatical feature, FFG included.

So... is the consensus that Vader can link off of passive sensors both when triggering the card to flip the charge, and again when he calculates/gets a lock later on?

13 minutes ago, Rettere said:

So... is the consensus that Vader can link off of passive sensors both when triggering the card to flip the charge, and again when he calculates/gets a lock later on?

He can use his ability in both cases, yes, as he's just performed an action in both cases.

3 hours ago, Rettere said:

So... is the consensus that Vader can link off of passive sensors both when triggering the card to flip the charge, and again when he calculates/gets a lock later on?

Yep. The first acion is just "Spend a [charge]"

That is an action. Its just weird because we are used to actions having some intrinsic effect. In this case, its only flipping a charge that only does something later. But yeah, both are actions. Have a ball.

This card is driving me nuts...

I have one question. If Vader gets coordinated and performs a focus action, can he use his ability to trigger passive sensors?

I think he cant because it’s not his perform action step....right?

29 minutes ago, Ryuneke said:

This card is driving me nuts...

I have one question. If Vader gets coordinated and performs a focus action, can he use his ability to trigger passive sensors?

I think he cant because it’s not his perform action step....right?

Correct.

His perform action step is the thing he gets after he fully eecutes a manoeuvre without crossing a rock or gas cloud.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Correct.

His perform action step is the thing he gets after he fully eecutes a manoeuvre without crossing a rock or gas cloud.

Yep. ANY action he gets outside of that.. Being Coordinated, OR his ability, is a Bonus action. Even Linked actions are not technically part of the perform action step, even if the connected action was performed in the perform action step.

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Even Linked actions are not technically part of the perform action step, even if the connected action was performed in the perform action step.

I don't think this is correct. The FAQ says, regarding ion maneuvers, that you can't link an action after you focus because focus is the only action you can perform during your Perform Action step (RRG p27). Therefore, linked actions still occur during the Perform Action step. By extension I would assume that anything triggered by an action during the Perform Action step also occurs during the Perform Action step.

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Yep. ANY action he gets outside of that.. Being Coordinated, OR his ability, is a Bonus action. Even Linked actions are not technically part of the perform action step, even if the connected action was performed in the perform action step.

i agree with @Maui. on this.

there is nothing indicating that the perform action step ends before you perform linked actions. things that trigger after actions performed during the perform action step (darth vader, jake farrel etc.) still happen during the perform action step. after all effects have been resolved, the perform action step has ended and the ship has finished its activation. you then move on to triggers happening after that ship has activated if there are any (don't think there are currently any abilities or effects with this timing) and then to before the next ship activates (s-foils), then to before that ship reveals its dial (ailerons), when that ship reveals it's dial, after that ship reveals its dial (advanced sensors, resistance leia) and so on.

21 hours ago, meffo said:

there is nothing indicating that the perform action step ends before you perform linked actions

Well, i thought there was.

Quote

3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action.

Quote

After a ship performs an action with an attached linked action...

It was my understanding that abilities and effects that trigger "after" an event, triggered after that event was completed. But the FAQ seems to contradict that..

Quote

No. Focus is the only action that it can perform during the Perform Action step.

So by the rules, its after, but by the FAQ, its during. *shrugs* Yay FFG logic.

agreed @Lyianx . i believe that you have to finish the whole ability queue before moving on to the next step, though. if you perform an action in the perform action step and decide to link it to other actions or trigger other abilities off of it, they also happen during the perform action step. then you move on. in general, you never move to a different phase or step before all abilities and effects that are triggered during the current phase are resolved. (let's not talk about coordinate and nestled coordinate and linking actions off of coordinated actions, ok?)

FFG logic could be even worse, but is of course far from perfect.

17 minutes ago, meffo said:

let's not talk about coordinate and nestled coordinate and linking actions off of coordinated actions, ok?

omg thats a mess of a debate alone.

In addition to the action during the Perform Action step, card abilities may instruct the ship to perform additional actions. passive sensors stops you from doing any other action during the preform action step, then surely vader isnt allowed to do his ability as it still falls in the preform action step?