2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

You guys only seem to think that The Rules are specific to dialogue and that the circumstances and scenes and ways they went about things in the movies don't contribute to our understanding of how things work.

In Force Awakens Han Solo specifically threw out the rules we're talking about here. I guess I'm the only one who was utterly and thoroughly angered by that scene with Han, Finn, and Rey where the creators did exactly the thing I'm talking about here: threw out the rules to get their characters out of a jam. And with exactly the argument you guys are making, "Those aren't the rules."

While I have to respect your right to be okay with that I will reserve the right to be horrified at your willingness to defend it.

Do you understand what you're arguing for with that? You're arguing that a fictional universe doesn't need to define its reality. It doesn't need to say what is and isn't real. Reality in the fictional universe is whatever they say it is whenever they say it is because space wizards and laser swords. There is stuff that isn't real in the real world so there is no real in the fictional one.

Why would it matter that you're not convinced? No rules against it right? It wasn't something we overlooked because it was Han being badass and only a badass like Han could do it. No rules against it. Everyone can do it no badass required.

And it looks cool right? It's good as long as it's cool right? Doesn't take away from what came before does it? Doesn't make them look stupid for trying to use an older code to get to the planet. There is no spoken rule that is a star shining though the clouds like you'd see through a planet. Space wizards and laser swords so there doesn't need to be a consistent framework of what can and can not be done. It can be whatever they say it is can't it? Who cares if any of this is grounded in anything as long as those rabbits keep coming and we can keep going, "Wow."

You keep claiming they broke the rules, but you have yet to say where you got those rules from. The only rules that have ever been expressed in the movies have not been violated, so where are these rules coming from? It's not breaking the rules if they aren't being inconsistent with what has been established. It's not their fault if you decided to take rules from other sources, or inferred your own rules that they didn't follow.

"You're arguing that a fictional universe doesn't need to define its reality." Yes, that is exactly what I'm arguing. It's fictional. I care more about characters and plot. Everything else is window dressing. World building can be interesting and cool, but it isn't a hard and fast requirement of story telling. I'd prefer it to be internally consistent, yes, but I can forgive a fair amount of inconsistency in world-building so long as the story is good, and the characters are interesting. Consistency in _characters_ is far more important, to me.

But, hey, that's my opinion. I don't require anyone else to hold the same one.

"There is no spoken rule that is a star shining though the clouds like you'd see through a planet." There doesn't need to be a planetary atmosphere to have a star shining through gas clouds... I find it more likely that it's a nebula of some sort. We'll find out which of us is right in December, though.

23 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I've been banging on this drum for four years now. A fictional universe needs rules for its tech and magic. They can be any rules like wearing a ring can turn you invisible at the cost of your soul but they must be adhered to. Creators don't get to throw the rules out because there isn't enough screen time for the heroes to overcome them or they aren't convenient to the cool shot you want or the creator just wrote themselves into a corner. When you violate the rules of your tech and your magic you are cheating.

What if the laser swords stopped being able to block blaster shots? Laser swords are made obsolete. Does that do good things or bad things for the Star Wars universe? Would that be cool?

Disney said they don't need to follow the rules , they make the rules!!!!

1 hour ago, Freeptop said:

"You're arguing that a fictional universe doesn't need to define its reality." Yes, that is exactly what I'm arguing. It's fictional. I care more about characters and plot.

Where can character or plot come from if there are no rules and constraints and the creators can just do whatever the plot requires that creates consistency of character? What is overcome? What is earned? Where is the tension and suspense? Where is the growth? How is their victory not hollow?

On 8/29/2019 at 8:14 AM, Freeptop said:

I'll just note that in the movies there was never any mention of hyperdrives having a problem with atmosphere or even planets.

"Without precise calculations we'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" <- That's pretty much our only indication from movie dialogue of what causes problems for hyperdrives. Note no mention of planets.

Everything else we "know" came from secondary sources. Most of which were EU, and thus excised from canon when Disney took over.

The EU was never canon. But! Within the new canon, we do have Interdictor cruisers. And those work by projecting gravity wells and yanking ships from hyperspace/keeping ships from jumping _to_ hyperspace. I've been wondering how Han was able to jump into an atmosphere of a gravity well since Ep 7.

I don't care all _that_ much, because JJ gotta JJ. But it does bother me.

It's too bad Rian wasn't able to fix all the damage JJ did before Disney handed the reigns back to the worst closer in all of cinema. But that's the breaks.

46 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I've been wondering how Han was able to jump into an atmosphere of a gravity well since Ep 7.

Override the safeties?

41 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Override the safeties?

I just sided with “it’s the ******ed Millennial Falcon.” It’s the quintesential example in sci-fi/sci-fantasy of ‘the ship’ being it’s own character without dialog.

4 hours ago, LagJanson said:

There should be rules for fantasy stories just as much as scifi. Magic, as an example, needs rules in universe. How powerful? What is needed to cast it? Who can wield it? All important rules that need to be fixed before writing, even if you don't explicitly tell the audience.

You’d probably REALLY hate Discworld, then.

3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Where can character or plot come from if there are no rules and constraints and the creators can just do whatever the plot requires that creates consistency of character? What is overcome? What is earned? Where is the tension and suspense? Where is the growth? How is their victory not hollow?

Constraints and consistent rules make it easier, but it can still be done. Also, even when there are rules, bending or breaking them occasionally isn't enough to ruin things for me. *shrug* It's a personal preference thing. You don't like it at all, and that's fine. I'm not saying you have to. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with my opinion. We just like different things.

2 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

The EU was never canon. But! Within the new canon, we do have Interdictor cruisers. And those work by projecting gravity wells and yanking ships from hyperspace/keeping ships from jumping _to_ hyperspace. I've been wondering how Han was able to jump into an atmosphere of a gravity well since Ep 7.

I don't care all _that_ much, because JJ gotta JJ. But it does bother me.

It's too bad Rian wasn't able to fix all the damage JJ did before Disney handed the reigns back to the worst closer in all of cinema. But that's the breaks.

Yeah, but what level of gravity well is necessary to yank a ship out of hyperspace? A star is a much bigger gravity well than a planet. They didn't specify how big the gravity well was, that I recall. Gravity well generators are utter magic to begin with, so there's no reason they couldn't have been projecting star-sized gravity wells.

Having delved into the EU once upon a time (and then jumped out around the Kevin J Anderson-era...) I admit I had a moment of cringing over the TFA scene where Han did the hyperspace jump trick. Then I got over it and just enjoyed it, since getting past the Starkiller Base shields wasn't a central plot point in the movie. Having gotten over it then, I had no problem when they jumped the U-Wing out of Jedha's atmosphere in Rogue One. They'd shown such things were possible already, after all.

4 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

You’d probably REALLY hate Discworld, then.

Perhaps. I’m willing to accept escapism and bad fiction if it’s entertaining.

4 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

You’d probably REALLY hate Discworld, then.

The vast majority of powerful magic users go out of their way to avoid using said magic, especially when a crossbow bolt or some guile will do.

19 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Perhaps. I’m willing to accept escapism and bad fiction if it’s entertaining.

Did you seriously just suggest that the late Terry Pratchett wrote “bad fiction”?

May your lifetimer ever be out of sand, heretic!

5 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Did you seriously just suggest that the late Terry Pratchett wrote “bad fiction”?

May your lifetimer ever be out of sand, heretic!

Actually, I’ve both enjoyed and disliked Terry Pratchett, depending on the story. Haven’t got to Discworld yet. I thought I was clearly being unspecific. I have read bad stories though and enjoyed them despite the poor quality, evident by my vast collection of old EU novels.

On 8/29/2019 at 11:16 PM, Freeptop said:

So they haven't violated the rules of their tech in the least. Again, old EU novels and RPG books don't count anymore. Even under George Lucas, the policy was always that the movies took precedence - everything else could be overridden by movies at any time. Heck, at one point, they had an official hierarchy of canon which said what forms of media were allowed to override others. The movies were always on top, though.

This is the most important quote anywhere in the star wars fandom. Everybody forgets this and just cries about canon being taken away, when it was never, ever canon. Thank you.

16 hours ago, Frimmel said:

You guys only seem to think that The Rules are specific to dialogue and that the circumstances and scenes and ways they went about things in the movies don't contribute to our understanding of how things work.

In Force Awakens Han Solo specifically threw out the rules we're talking about here. I guess I'm the only one who was utterly and thoroughly angered by that scene with Han, Finn, and Rey where the creators did exactly the thing I'm talking about here: threw out the rules to get their characters out of a jam. And with exactly the argument you guys are making, "Those aren't the rules."

While I have to respect your right to be okay with that I will reserve the right to be horrified at your willingness to defend it.

Do you understand what you're arguing for with that? You're arguing that a fictional universe doesn't need to define its reality. It doesn't need to say what is and isn't real. Reality in the fictional universe is whatever they say it is whenever they say it is because space wizards and laser swords. There is stuff that isn't real in the real world so there is no real in the fictional one.

Why would it matter that you're not convinced? No rules against it right? It wasn't something we overlooked because it was Han being badass and only a badass like Han could do it. No rules against it. Everyone can do it no badass required.

And it looks cool right? It's good as long as it's cool right? Doesn't take away from what came before does it? There is no spoken rule that is a star shining though the clouds like you'd see through a planet. Space wizards and laser swords so there doesn't need to be a consistent framework of what can and can not be done. It can be whatever they say it is can't it? Who cares if any of this is grounded in anything as long as those rabbits keep coming and we can keep going, "Wow."

1: Yes, yes you are, because that violated no previously stated rule.
2: Dude, it's a movie. There are a myriad of other things in this world you need to be horrified about. Here's one, the Amazon Rainforest IS STILL ON FRAKKING FIRE.
3: lol that happened in RoTJ and you let it slide.

10 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

The EU was never canon. But! Within the new canon, we do have Interdictor cruisers. And those work by projecting gravity wells and yanking ships from hyperspace/keeping ships from jumping _to_ hyperspace. I've been wondering how Han was able to jump into an atmosphere of a gravity well since Ep 7.

I don't care all _that_ much, because JJ gotta JJ. But it does bother me.

It's too bad Rian wasn't able to fix all the damage JJ did before Disney handed the reigns back to the worst closer in all of cinema. But that's the breaks.

Actually a valid criticism. Though, if I may refer you to...

This shot. Please explain how the **** THAT worked.

10 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Actually a valid criticism. Though, if I may refer you to...

This shot. Please explain how the **** THAT worked.

Interrictor captain is canonically incompetent. He didn’t fire up the gravity well generator until the nebulon started to jump.

this is my no prize answer. I haven’t given it a ton of thought.

1 hour ago, Punning Pundit said:

Interrictor captain is canonically incompetent. He didn’t fire up the gravity well generator until the nebulon started to jump.

Or arrogant as **** and wanted maximum intimidation from its initial use. Having someone jump and then yanking them out as part of the first deployment of the class (iirc) is a huge ego boost to the Imps and an "Oh ****!!!" for their targets.

On 8/30/2019 at 7:21 PM, Punning Pundit said:

It's too bad Rian wasn't able to fix all the damage JJ did before Disney handed the reigns back to the worst closer in all of cinema. But that's the breaks.

Just here to comment that thank god it's going back to JJ, because I'm in the 'TLJ was awful and I hate everything Rian Johnson did to the movies' club.

Not that you can't think otherwise, but I'll defend JJ here

To be fair to the discussion on in universe rules, there is an entire section about the jump to hyperspace in Thrawn: Alliances, which is canon, with a freighter escaping orbit from a planet to make the jump due to its gravity well. What that means for coming out of hyperspace, who knows.

I'm firmly in the "give me reasonable doubt and I'm game" camp. Any plausible explanation is fine, and I don't need the media to explain it. Different hyperdrive capabilities? Varying strengths of the gravity well? Sure.

That's why i still hold to the older EU rules.. Grav wells inhibit hyperspace.. None of this new fandango, jumping in/out while in a planet's atmosphere...

4 hours ago, dsul413 said:

To be fair to the discussion on in universe rules, there is an entire section about the jump to hyperspace in Thrawn: Alliances, which is canon, with a freighter escaping orbit from a planet to make the jump due to its gravity well. What that means for coming out of hyperspace, who knows.

I'm firmly in the "give me reasonable doubt and I'm game" camp. Any plausible explanation is fine, and I don't need the media to explain it. Different hyperdrive capabilities? Varying strengths of the gravity well? Sure.

Best damned navigational database uploaded to the ship, with the most peculiar dialect?

8 hours ago, LTuser said:

That's why i still hold to the older EU rules.. Grav wells inhibit hyperspace.. None of this new fandango, jumping in/out while in a planet's atmosphere...

But what if you are using the force?

1 hour ago, XPav said:

But what if you are using the force?

That's not how it works.

On 8/31/2019 at 2:22 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

Here's one, the Amazon Rainforest IS STILL ON FRAKKING FIRE.

Amazon is on fire for the last 90 years and you only found out that now? The rest of the world is fine , I suppose. I mean, looks like the last few days formed a lot of specialists in the Brazilian problems.

I'm a native, so let me give you some inside info.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise" the Amazon Rainforest ?
I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi media would tell you.

Amazon is a jungle of half the Europe's size and, since it's a no man's land, it attracts all kind of adventurers who want a better life. Just like the US Wild West did.

There is no easy solution for the fact poor people will go there, find unclaimed land, chop down valuable wood for selling and burn the remaining bushes to clear way for farming. And no, you can't police a jungle of that size. We need to find sustainable ways for these people to explore the forest without destroying it - and that's pretty pretty hard. So hard that no government in Brazil, left-wing or right-wing, managed to have any progress.

7 hours ago, XPav said:

But what if you are using the force?

5 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

That's not how it works.

no, this is not Dune, that's not how it works here.

4 hours ago, Odanan said:

Amazon is on fire for the last 90 years and you only found out that now? The rest of the world is fine , I suppose. I mean, looks like the last few days formed a lot of specialists in the Brazilian problems.

I'm a native, so let me give you some inside info.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise" the Amazon Rainforest ?
I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi media would tell you.

Amazon is a jungle of half the Europe's size and, since it's a no man's land, it attracts all kind of adventurers who want a better life. Just like the US Wild West did.

There is no easy solution for the fact poor people will go there, find unclaimed land, chop down valuable wood for selling and burn the remaining bushes to clear way for farming. And no, you can't police a jungle of that size. We need to find sustainable ways for these people to explore the forest without destroying it - and that's pretty pretty hard. So hard that no government in Brazil, left-wing or right-wing, managed to have any progress.

So what you're saying is that the fires going on now are totally okay and not worth ANY concern?

19 hours ago, LTuser said:

That's why i still hold to the older EU rules.. Grav wells inhibit hyperspace.. None of this new fandango, jumping in/out while in a planet's atmosphere...

Enjoy fake rules.