Just now, Belisarius09 said:

@Darth Sanguis and I manage to have very civil discussions over our different opinions of the films. We can respect each others different points of view even if we disagree. Try taking a page out of his book.

When it comes to backlash over the new movies I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. If they can express their ideas with some civility, I'll respond with a cool head. That said, I've seen and heard some outlandish stuff about the sequels and I have been known to drop some crude memes and "abusive" behavior while addressing it.

In fact the only reason I haven't been bombing this thread with my typical "Star Wars fans will ***** about anything" posts is because I already got banned like 2 weeks ago and really can't afford another ban with so much going on in legion.

6 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

How did this topic get so derailed anyways? Am I responsible for this? My bad.

Don't feel bad, talking about anything from the new movies is a faster way to a locked thread than politics and religion combined.

7 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Something that’s been bugging me from the trailer/picture in the op. All the isds are on like a single flat plane. Maybe Armada is more accurate than we thought, even the films forget space is 3D! XD

I'm thinking a slave unit has to be responsible. they're not just on the same plane buy perfectly spaced and equidistant from each other. I think it may literally be Katana fleet rewritten.

15 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

I mean that’s a nice strawman. I don’t know who you’re responding to when you say people disliked viii for being “bold and different.” That’s certainly not the issue I take with viii, i don’t even consider it to be all that different.

It wasn't a response to anyone in general. It's a general statement of annoyance over shallow bashing of 8 because I feel it's that very sentiment that may have derailed 9 from a more original finale to this trilogy. I'm just not happy about vocal fans in general; mass complaining feels like it's ruining things that could have been good otherwise.

21 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Something that’s been bugging me from the trailer/picture in the op. All the isds are on like a single flat plane. Maybe Armada is more accurate than we thought, even the films forget space is 3D! XD

I felt they were in formation for some reason. Planetary bombardment? Lost boneyard somewhere? There's a theory out there that this is Katana fleet 2.0, which would make sense of all of those destroyers are simply parked and awaiting reactivation.

Yeh I’m starting to suspect it may be a katana fleet rip as well. Or maybe that’s how the isds get ‘dry docked’ when they’re not at a shield gate/station.

If they do go katana fleet route, I wonder if there will be droid tie fighters.

its probs more a hybrid of katana/operation shadow hand the more I think about it.

28 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It wasn't a response to anyone in general. It's a general statement of annoyance over shallow bashing of 8 because I feel it's that very sentiment that may have derailed 9 from a more original finale to this trilogy. I'm just not happy about vocal fans in general; mass complaining feels like it's ruining things that could have been good otherwise.

28 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

There's a theory out there that this is Katana fleet 2.0, which would make sense of all of those destroyers are simply parked and awaiting reactivation.

27 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Yeh I’m starting to suspect it may be a katana fleet rip as well.

My guess is these are related.

After TLJ there was an outburst from the fans of the old legends EU that the new trilogy isn't as good as the legends books. Which, most people who've read books from more than 2 or 3 different authors from the old post RotJ EU know that their complaints, based on that alone, are unfounded. The old EU was okay, it kept us afloat when there really wasn't any hope for sequels, but it wasn't really all that great. At least not as great as everyone's nostalgia tells them. Other than not being very well meshed together it had a lot of conflicting styles and some wild or even foreign themes...

If I had to guess, the vocal nature of these fans and the fact that they've been spewing vitriol since Disney firebombed their favorite fanfiction out of canon, would be the primary reason we see some "legends" rewrites in this last film.

16 hours ago, Church14 said:

1) No other smugglers or pirates or rebel ships could meet them somewhere and have her hop ships? BS.

2) So their plan was to wake up a battle station and start a fight. Then try to send in a sneak attack. That’s complex stupid, not smart.

Also, I’m evaluating the movie on its own merits. No post-movie fluff written to fill in gaps post-release. People who go after TFA don’t want to have to read the extra-movie material so they don’t get to defend ANH with extra-movie material.

Last, “sneak attack” isn’t what occurs in the movie. The relevant line in the movie that I remember is “Sir, several fighters have broken off from the main group.” Red and gold didn’t sneak in. They showed up, shot the place up, and then tried to waltz off. The book is retconning.

3) Again, extra-movie fluff doesn’t count. The torpedoes are shown to have been shot straight down the trench, parallel to the surface. They then make a hard 90 degree turn downwards as they enter the exhaust port. This implies the exhaust port opening is straight up. Not parallel to the surface.

That the attack is really stupid doesn’t take away from the really impressive editing to turn it into a tense, dramatic sequence.

1) They were in a bit of a hurry if I remember correctly, so arrange a rebel transport, especially with the Imperials on their tails might ave been problematic...

2) Actually the book was written from the final script, which was later cut to meet the lenght-requirements of a movie. The book DID NOT recon anything, the movie cut a big chunk of the original story. And the book was written BEFORE the filming was finished, from the script. So technically the book came first The Death Star attack was far more elaborate originally. It even involved a battle with a Star Destroyer before they could get to the Death Star. And because the Imps could see them coming, it was never an option to come in undetected.

3) If "extra movie fluff doesn't count", then the whole new trilogy doesn't make sense whatsoever, because everyone says that you have to read this or that book when it's explained what happened and why (Battle of Jakku for instance).

@Darth Sanguis I was actually very much enjoying the EU. Dare I say, I even liked the Vong! Sure, there were parts when it was boring or annoying, but from about 50 books, that's understandable. But I liked the Yevetha crisis for exampe, I loved the New Jedi Order and the discovery of the idea of attachment (compared to the detachment-idea of the old Jedi Order), I LOVED how they handled the Imperial Remnant. There were some really great stuff in there in my opinion. But if nothing else, they at least dared to make grand stories with new ideas, daring choices and interesting characters. The NT doesn't bring anything new or original, they just make everything bigger, batter, stronger and boom! New Star Wars!

2 hours ago, Norell said:

2) Actually the book was written from the final script, which was later cut to meet the lenght-requirements of a movie. The book DID NOT recon anything, the movie cut a big chunk of the original story. And the book was written BEFORE the filming was finished, from the script. So technically the book came first The Death Star attack was far more elaborate originally. It even involved a battle with a Star Destroyer before they could get to the Death Star. And because the Imps could see them coming, it was never an option to come in undetected.

There’s a neat video called something like “How Star Wars was saved in the editing.” It covers how the Death Star Attack was re-sequenced because the originally shot sequences didn’t flow well and lacked the tension they wanted. So I’ve seen a bit in how the final product was better (more engaging) than what it was supposed to be.

None of that changes that what is shown onscreen. What is onscreen is a realllllly stupid attack.

2 hours ago, Norell said:

3) If "extra movie fluff doesn't count", then the whole new trilogy doesn't make sense whatsoever, because everyone says that you have to read this or that book when it's explained what happened and why (Battle of Jakku for instance).

I’d argue that the story of the new trilogy makes enough sense, but not consuming other media makes the context of the story confusing. “What are they doing” is well enough explained, but “how did they get here” isn’t if you just watch the new movies.

So what they did in response to Starkiller base is smarter than what the Rebellion did in response to the Death Star, but “how the **** is Starkiller base a thing?” isn’t well explained. Then again, “how the **** is the Death Star a thing” isn’t explained in ANH either.

Both movies require a “Don’t think about it too hard. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy yourself” attitude to enjoy on their own. If you want to start breaking the movies down without supporting material, neither holds up.

Well, at least in ANH they explain in the intro text that the Death Star is a thing and that's what the fuss is all about. Starkiller Base is just suddenly pulled out of the sleeve in the middle of the movie.

18 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If I had to guess, the vocal nature of these fans and the fact that they've been spewing vitriol since Disney firebombed their favorite fanfiction out of canon, would be the primary reason we see some "legends" rewrites in this last film.

So..... Garm Bel Iblis is coming back to save the Resistance? Oh boi oh boi! @shmitty @BiggsIRL

8 minutes ago, geek19 said:

So..... Garm Bel Iblis is coming back to save the Resistance? Oh boi oh boi! @shmitty @BiggsIRL

After seeing Thrawn make a come back, I'm not ruling anything out.

6 hours ago, Norell said:

I was actually very much enjoying the EU. Dare I say, I even liked the Vong! Sure, there were parts when it was boring or annoying, but from about 50 books, that's understandable. But I liked the Yevetha crisis for exampe, I loved the New Jedi Order and the discovery of the idea of attachment (compared to the detachment-idea of the old Jedi Order), I LOVED how they handled the Imperial Remnant. There were some really great stuff in there in my opinion. But if nothing else, they at least dared to make grand stories with new ideas, daring choices and interesting characters. The NT doesn't bring anything new or original, they just make everything bigger, batter, stronger and boom! New Star Wars!

Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of things about the old EU that I enjoyed. That said, there was even more that was hot garbage. After Zahn's trilogy a lot of the books in the post-RotJ EU took on a very cringeworthy tone. Kevin Anderson's books were probably some of the worst. Hambly wasn't the best either... In my opinion the old EU was basically kept afloat by Stockpole and Zahn... not to say there weren't other stories that were good, but a lot of it just felt like fanservice.

19 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

My guess is these are related.

After TLJ there was an outburst from the fans of the old legends EU that the new trilogy isn't as good as the legends books. Which, most people who've read books from more than 2 or 3 different authors from the old post RotJ EU know that their complaints, based on that alone, are unfounded. The old EU was okay, it kept us afloat when there really wasn't any hope for sequels, but it wasn't really all that great. At least not as great as everyone's nostalgia tells them. Other than not being very well meshed together it had a lot of conflicting styles and some wild or even foreign themes...

If I had to guess, the vocal nature of these fans and the fact that they've been spewing vitriol since Disney firebombed their favorite fanfiction out of canon, would be the primary reason we see some "legends" rewrites in this last film.

hmm. I think my memory might trump my nostalgia, even if you seem to claim you know better 😉

just another opinion made look like fact. I thoroughly enjoyed a lot of those books. clearly not all of them, but a lot. what I am not doing is getting into conflict on who is right in claiming personal preference.

7 minutes ago, NebulonB said:

I think my memory might trump my nostalgia, even if you seem to claim you know better 😉

just another opinion made look like fact

Never stated it was fact good buddy...

On the other hand Disney did firebomb it right the **** out of their canon, sooooo...

Confirmed:

Legends not good enough to be canon.... except Thrawn... somehow...

Also if your claims are about what's "fact", your memory is a hella bad source. anecdotal at best.

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

So..... Garm Bel Iblis is coming back to save the Resistance? Oh boi oh boi! @shmitty @BiggsIRL

Space Dad did just come back to save Armada, so why not?

1 hour ago, shmitty said:

Space Dad did just come back to save Armada, so why not?

He finally got that packet of smokes he went out for in round 1!

On 9/4/2019 at 1:58 PM, Norsehound said:

But I look in the incredible cut-section books which claim the Resistance have several Nebulon-Cs. Where are they, if they aren't on screen? Clearly this communicates to me that it wasn't intended for that fleet to be the literal final batch of the Resistance.

I mean, I'm sure you're correct in that extended universe sources (comics, novels, etc.) and possibly even Rise of Skywalker will confirm that there are lots of other Resistance Groups and ships out there (which would make a lot of sense, I mean it should be a big group if it's a galactic thing and all). BUT that just makes it all the more profoundly stupid that such sources will basically have to ret-con what RJ explicitly establishes in The Last Jedi -- the film makes it very clear that what we see on film is all that remains of the Resistance as an organization.

And even if we give that a pass and grant that lots of other Resistance cells are out there, it's still a boneheaded move for RJ to have the film explicitly state that the entire on screen group we do see is only 400 people. That's such an implausibly small number of souls to man those three ships, both by realworld analogs and by every other single piece of Star Wars material ever put out, that had more "realistic" crew values for ships (e.g. 30,000 for an ISD ... which is a fraction the size of the Raddus...).

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I mean, I'm sure you're correct in that extended universe sources (comics, novels, etc.) and possibly even Rise of Skywalker will confirm that there are lots of other Resistance Groups and ships out there (which would make a lot of sense, I mean it should be a big group if it's a galactic thing and all). BUT that just makes it all the more profoundly stupid that such sources will basically have to ret-con what RJ explicitly establishes in The Last Jedi -- the film makes it very clear that what we see on film is all that remains of the Resistance as an organization.

With such a level of apathy, maybe the First Order should have just quietly assimilated into the New Republic, gained democratic majority on enough planets, voted Snoke for Chancellor, and granted him absolute power, thus consuming democracy from the inside out.

Again.

On 9/5/2019 at 9:31 AM, Darth Sanguis said:

Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of things about the old EU that I enjoyed. That said, there was even more that was hot garbage. After Zahn's trilogy a lot of the books in the post-RotJ EU took on a very cringeworthy tone. Kevin Anderson's books were probably some of the worst. Hambly wasn't the best either... In my opinion the old EU was basically kept afloat by Stockpole and Zahn... not to say there weren't other stories that were good, but a lot of it just felt like fanservice.

Yeh the thrown books were enjoyable and I understand people like rogue squadron (haven’t read them all the way through myself) But there’s a lot of forgettable material in the eu.

And hey, ill be consistent. One of the reasons I have trouble taking some of the eu content seriously. despite the rebellion’s triumph over the empire and the establishment of the new republic, most eu novels still find a way to make our heroes the plucky underdogs, out numbered and outgunned by imperial foes with limitless resources! Because bad writing/writers have to manufacture tension this way when they don’t know how to give protagonists believable obstacles to overcome.

Makes me appreciate zhan all the more. Thrawn had very limited resources, he needed the katana fleet to supplement his forces. And even then he was handicapped by his reliance/need to defend the shipyards. Our protagonists had to be clever and exploit that weakness. Much better than the tired rehashed outbumbered underdog trope.

I think TFA was ok but there were a lot of little things that annoyed me. Laziness of the ship design was a big one. Every other Star Wars live action film we got new fighter designs but all TFA gave us was updates of the OT fighters. There was actually less variety in the fighters used in TFA then in ANH because the entire Resistance fighter group was X-Wings while ANH had X-Wings and Y-Wings. Plus the fighter battle was far too close to Yavin for my tastes. I read somewhere that one one point they planned a capship battle as part of the attack on Starkiller and IMO they should have included it.

TLJ was horrible. The writers had no sense of scale whatsoever. Four capital ships and four hundred people with dozens, hundreds or thousands of worlds to recruit from makes no sense at all. The Resistance literally has more admirals then it has capital ships. To modify one of my favorite Star Trek Deeop Space Nine quotes "We may not have enough weapons or troops or ships but we have plenty of admirals." Plus what happened to the two MC80s the Resistance had in Poe;s canon Before the Awakening short story which was set right before TFA?

Also both the MC85 and Resistance cargo frigate are absurdly underarmed for their size and role.

And whose dumb idea was it to give us a count on how many Resistance members there were and how many capital ships they had? We were never given exact counts, or even rough estimates of Alliance personal roster or ship inventory. Even in ROTJ were never saw the entire Alliance fleet in one screen shot and thus could never make an accurate and confirmed ship count. All giving an exact count does is limit future stories set in the ST era because now authors have to tap dance within or around the limits imposed by TLJ

Luke acted insanely out of character in the flashbacks. Holdo was an incompetent moron who apparently either didn't realize morale was in a nose dive until it hit mutiny level, or didn't effectively act to counter the problem. Hux was a buffoon. The Canto Blight sequence feels like it was ripped out of a very bad parody.

33 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:

Luke acted insanely out of character in the flashbacks.

I see this criticism a lot, but how so? In the OT, Luke spent most of his time whining, and even in RotJ, after he grew up a bit, he still very nearly succumbed to rage in almost killing his dad. Is it so impossible that he might, upon sensing a darkness in Ben, become briefly overwhelmed by anger or fear before mastering himself? Personally, I think the only way it can really be considered "out of character" is if we assume that once someone masters a temptation once, it never troubles them again.

Just my two cents, not wanting to start a whole "TLJ was great/terrible" argument here. It seems that as a Jedi master, Luke would be able to suppress temptation/excessive emotions to a much higher degree. Ultimately though, there is a difference between being angry or fearful and murdering your sleeping nephew. He resisted all those things, even resisting the opportunity to kill the emperor (!), and never loses hope in saving his father (one of the most murderous, sadistic, and dangerous beings in the galaxy). But then he becomes a sad sack and abandons the entire *idea* of the Jedi because his nephew is being sorely tempted by the dark side. Just doesn't follow for me.

20 minutes ago, edwardthrawn1 said:

Just my two cents, not wanting to start a whole "TLJ was great/terrible" argument here. It seems that as a Jedi master, Luke would be able to suppress temptation/excessive emotions to a much higher degree. Ultimately though, there is a difference between being angry or fearful and murdering your sleeping nephew. He resisted all those things, even resisting the opportunity to kill the emperor (!), and never loses hope in saving his father (one of the most murderous, sadistic, and dangerous beings in the galaxy). But then he becomes a sad sack and abandons the entire *idea* of the Jedi because his nephew is being sorely tempted by the dark side. Just doesn't follow for me.

Did he resist the opportunity to kill the Emperor? From what I remember of the movie, he grabbed his lightsaber and swung it, only to be blocked by Vader. Presumably, if Vader hadn't intervened, Luke would have cut down Palpatine. While Luke does try to save his father, when he finally beats Vader, it's because he's furiously attacking him in anger, and he only seems to snap out of it when the Emperor cackles and he realizes that killing Vader that way would just play into Palpatine's hands.

In Ben's case, someone has very helpfully posted a compilation of all three flashbacks in a single video (at end of post). In Kylo's version, yes, Luke is taking a swing at him, but we don't know that Kylo's version is accurate (as opposed to either simply seeing Luke with a lightsaber and misinterpreting, or possibly even Kylo lying to Rey). In Luke's second, fuller version, he seems to sense the Dark Side and ignite his lightsaber without thinking, and then immediately realize what he's doing and resist the temptation. If we accept Kylo's version as true, then I agree it does seem rather odd. Luke's version, though, seems to me perfectly in keeping with how we see him throughout all the films. (Also, I don't think Luke ever had any intention of killing his nephew. Even the part of him that instinctively ignited the lightsaber was looking at Ben as a Dark Jedi, and not as a person.)

Furthermore, I think I disagree with the idea that a Jedi Master would automatically be less tempted than anyone else of similar temperament. He may know of more techniques to help him resist temptation, but this would have to be a conscious decision on his part, not some sort of automatic, anti-temptation protection. In fact, it's entirely possible that being stronger in the Force would make someone more susceptible to temptation, which would explain why the Old Republic Jedi were so opposed to the marriage and other strong, emotional attachments. The idea there would be that because strong emotions can be so tempting, it's better to avoid the emotions completely rather than constantly fight against the super-strength temptations that come with it.

I'm not saying everyone has to like the way it was handled, or that it couldn't have been better if they had done it differently, but of all the objections one could raise to the movie, "Luke was acting out of character" seems pretty weak, to me.

The Luke confronting Ben scenario aside/ Shutting himself off from the force, throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder, refusing to help his sister, not trying to save Ben and turn him back. Seemed pretty out of character to Mark Hamil, and to a lot of us. ****, Obi Wan saw a lot of **** that could've given someone ptsd, and while he exiled himself to Tatooine and became a Hermit (to watch over Luke) he didn't refuse to help when the time came or throw his twisted pupil's light saber away.

If it worked for you fine, I'm glad some people enjoyed it. But just leave it there. You don't need to go to the extra lengths to try to prove a complaint was "weak". I believe, if those who enjoyed the films acknowledged the grievances of those who didn't enjoy the film, we could all move on from this debate and heal the split in the fanbase. I don't think its about being right anymore. But if the two sides can't acknowledge why one side liked x thing, or why one side disliked x thing, then we're just talking past each other and nothing productive comes from that. People get frustrated fast when they feel like they aren't being heard.

Those who like the ST, I get it. There have been some great shots (hyperspace ram, air speeders kicking up the red soil on krayt). And its SW, its back, and if nothing else it's great that it's here and we get to bear witness to it. To the parts I dislike but I know you like, I get it. If it works for you, I'm happy for you. I'm sorry we don't agree, and I'll try to make sure I don't let my displeasure over certain scenes/characters/plots take away from your enjoyment of the films.

We're getting some new ships, and interceptors are making a return to the screen and it looks like we'll be getting a space battle which is good news for armada so I'm excited as ****.

Small Luke tirade before I address the OP.

“Luke wouldn’t kill his nephew”

Well he wouldn’t, which is why he didn’t, hence why Kylo Ren is kinda the main antagonist of the sequel trilogy...

Anyone who disagrees with Luke’s momentary lapse in judgement isn’t putting themselves in his shoes.

Imagine your Father was an emotionally unstable man who became a Jedi but was ultimately tempted to the dark side. As a result he wiped out the Jedi and installed a regime that would kill billions upon billions. Your Father was a mass murderer beyond the scope of any in actual human history.

Consider how much you’ve sacrificed, the countless friends you’ve lost, the innocents killed in a bloody civil war all to tear down your Father’s Empire.

Now you’ve rebuilt the Jedi but one of your star pupils, your nephew, who shows the tendencies of your father. You learn a powerful dark sider has already lured him to the dark side. You don’t have much time and everything you’ve sacrificed to gain is now at risk. Billions upon billions of lives hinge on your decision. Yeah killing space Hitler jr is going to be an option that comes to mind, even if fleeting.

And ultimately Luke would’ve been right to kill Ben.

We get all hippy dippy about redemption because of Return of the Jedi but preach about the power of atonement to all the people who never got off Aldderan. You can’t because they all got snuffed out of existence.

Luke’s weakness dooms the galaxy.

Everybody likes to think they would stand stalwart against an unfriendly universe even if everything they fought to build smoldered around them, in reality most people would crumple or turn to drink. Luke hiding on an island is one of the most human reactions to failure in Star Wars.

————

Its pretty much universally agreed the Thrawn Trilogy is one of the best (if not THE best) storylines in the EU.

I think part of that is the world building, it’s excellent at introducing new stuff that feels naturally apart of the universe.

Those books also do an excellent job of creating the illusion that there is a lot more going on in the background then we see directly. Timothy Zahn is great at providing enough examples and information so that our imagination naturally wants to fill in the gaps. For instance we consistantly get glimpses and comments on various battles or logistics that make it feel that these vast military campaigns are actually taking place in the background of our protagonist’s actions. Therefore the stakes feel higher.

All that to say I think the ultimate success of the Thrawn Trilogy is that there is a lot of nuance to the writing at every level.

I don’t hate the Sequel Trilogy. I quite like The Last Jedi and I can tolerate The Force Awakens.

That being said i’m worried this fleet of Star Destroyers is simply going to be Starkiller Baser 2.0. Some royal flush that’s going to have to be overcome in some ridiculous manner. Ya know, a maguffin esque problem resolved by a similarly simple solution, rather than creating a multilayered problem for our characters that requires a multilayered solution

@Belisarius09 Luke didn’t become a Jedi until he threw his lightsaber away in Return of the Jedi.

The way I have always viewed lightsabers is that the Jedi only have them out of necessity because the Sith had them and unlike the Jedi had no qualms over violent solutions.

8 minutes ago, Forresto said:

@Belisarius09 Luke didn’t become a Jedi until he threw his lightsaber away in Return of the Jedi.

The way I have always viewed lightsabers is that the Jedi only have them out of necessity because the Sith had them and unlike the Jedi had no qualms over violent solutions.

Sith copied lightsabers from the Jedi.

But "because the galaxy is a fundamentally violent place, and sometimes Jedi fail to avert bloodshed in their line of work" seems to ring true.