2 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Sith copied lightsabers from the Jedi.

But "because the galaxy is a fundamentally violent place, and sometimes Jedi fail to avert bloodshed in their line of work" seems to ring true.

I suppose that makes sense, especially if the Sith are an offshoot of the Jedi? I’m not sure about anient SW history in the current canon (although I assume them copying sabers is also true in Legends)?

Yeah I’ve always seen lightsabers as a tool Jedi are intended to use reluctantly. They’re some of the coolest weapons in Sci Fi, saber fights are great, but I almost think the coolness makes people who forget that they’re ideally only meant for when all else fails.

I would love to see a story where a Jedi only uses their saber once or twice, like at the beginning and end of the story to resolve some unavoidable conflict.

6 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

If it worked for you fine, I'm glad some people enjoyed it. But just leave it there. You don't need to go to the extra lengths to try to prove a complaint was "weak". I believe, if those who enjoyed the films acknowledged the grievances of those who didn't enjoy the film, we could all move on from this debate and heal the split in the fanbase. I don't think its about being right anymore. But if the two sides can't acknowledge why one side liked x thing, or why one side disliked x thing, then we're just talking past each other and nothing productive comes from that. People get frustrated fast when they feel like they aren't being heard.

Again, this has nothing to do with liking the film or not liking it. It has to do with the specific arguments used. If people want to say they don't like how Luke was portrayed, or that it doesn't fit how they imagined the character, that's fine. To claim that it was actually "out of character", that is to say, that it is completely at odds with how the character has been portrayed throughout the series, just doesn't work.

26 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Those who like the ST, I get it. There have been some great shots (hyperspace ram, air speeders kicking up the red soil on krayt). And its SW, its back, and if nothing else it's great that it's here and we get to bear witness to it. To the parts I dislike but I know you like, I get it. If it works for you, I'm happy for you. I'm sorry we don't agree, and I'll try to make sure I don't let my displeasure over certain scenes/characters/plots take away from your enjoyment of the films.

Honestly, the air speeders were probably the part of the movie that I liked the least, simply because of how ridiculous they were.

Now I'm genuinely curious; what parts do you think I liked?

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

To claim that it was actually "out of character", that is to say, that it is completely at odds with how the character has been portrayed throughout the series, just doesn't work.

Stop. Just. Stop.

Let it go.

Not to butt in but to show you can love something and still find faults in it, and vice versa I will say my least favorite parts of The Last Jedi (as someone who really enjoys TLJ):

-Phasma doing squat again.

-Ackbar’s death, moreso we don’t get to see him have an “Oh ****” face” or expression of resignation.

-The lack of context to the greater galaxy. The crawl indicated FO fleets are siezing critical systems in a coordinated attack but it would’ve been nice to see Snoke viewing a map or something visual we could grasp onto.

-Not enough R2.

-Not enough distinctive side characters, especially on the First Order side. The Imperials got Piett and Ozzell and Veers and Needa. We get Canady on the Dreadnaught and boom he’s dead.

-The Hyperspace Ram being as destructive as it was. I don’t think it’s lorebreaking, and it’s visually incredible, but wiping out an additional several Star Destroyers seemed over kill to me.

-Finn and Rose’s storyline is the weakest part of the plot but mostly because of setting. Canto Bight is great, im glad it exists, however it inherently feels detached from everything else (although that is thematically the point.). Personally I think it would’ve been far more effective if they had gone somewhere recognizable like Coruscant. Maybe the First Order is occupying as they’re searching for DJ at a casino. You serve the world and plot in multiple ways at once.

11 minutes ago, Forresto said:

-Finn and Rose’s storyline is the weakest part of the plot but mostly because of setting. Canto Bight is great, im glad it exists, however it inherently feels detached from everything else (although that is thematically the point.).

I thought Rose telling Finn that they wouldn't win by sacrificing themselves conflicted strongly with the fact that Holdo had just helped save the Resistance by doing precisely that. I mean, I get what she's trying to say, but the timing and the phrasing just don't really work well. Instead, I feel they should have had the cannon fire as soon as Finn and Rose were out of the way (so that it would be obvious that Finn was never going to make it, even if she hadn't saved him), and then left out the line about not sacrificing themselves. The rest of the scene could have been the same, and it all would have fit together a bit better.

20 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Personally I think it would’ve been far more effective if they had gone somewhere recognizable like Coruscant. Maybe the First Order is occupying as they’re searching for DJ at a casino. You serve the world and plot in multiple ways at once.

I guess this really hits at your earlier point about lack of context. Does the FO control, or even directly threaten Coruscant at this point?

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I see this criticism a lot, but how so? In the OT, Luke spent most of his time whining, and even in RotJ, after he grew up a bit, he still very nearly succumbed to rage in almost killing his dad. Is it so impossible that he might, upon sensing a darkness in Ben, become briefly overwhelmed by anger or fear before mastering himself? Personally, I think the only way it can really be considered "out of character" is if we assume that once someone masters a temptation once, it never troubles them again.

After everything Vader did Luke tried to redeem him. Yet all it takes is a vision that Luke knows is only a possible future and look what he does. He wakes up, arms himself, walks to Kylo's tent, and ignites his weapon before catching himself.

Vader served the darkside for decades and Luke considers him redeemable yet Luke gives up on his nephew to the point of preparing to murder Ben in his sleep because Ben is slipping towards the darkside. That makes no sense. Luke knows as well as anyone that those who fall can come back to the light so why would he, even for just a moment, consider Ben beyond redemption before his fall?

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

I thought Rose telling Finn that they wouldn't win by sacrificing themselves conflicted strongly with the fact that Holdo had just helped save the Resistance by doing precisely that. I mean, I get what she's trying to say, but the timing and the phrasing just don't really work well. Instead, I feel they should have had the cannon fire as soon as Finn and Rose were out of the way (so that it would be obvious that Finn was never going to make it, even if she hadn't saved him), and then left out the line about not sacrificing themselves. The rest of the scene could have been the same, and it all would have fit together a bit better.

I guess this really hits at your earlier point about lack of context. Does the FO control, or even directly threaten Coruscant at this point?

I believe Coruscant is one of the systems that was granted to the Empire by the treaty that ended the war. If so the quest is what is the First Order's relationship to the Imperial Remanent that remained in known space. And I don't think anything has explained that.

4 hours ago, RogueCorona said:

After everything Vader did Luke tried to redeem him. Yet all it takes is a vision that Luke knows is only a possible future and look what he does. He wakes up, arms himself, walks to Kylo's tent, and ignites his weapon before catching himself.

And this is where I think people are reading far too much into the scene. You make it sound like Luke's going to Ben's tent to kill him, and only catches himself at the last moment. Actually, Luke just says he was going to "confront" him, which could just as easily (if not more so) be taken to mean that he intended to talk to his nephew about it.

4 hours ago, RogueCorona said:

Vader served the darkside for decades and Luke considers him redeemable yet Luke gives up on his nephew to the point of preparing to murder Ben in his sleep because Ben is slipping towards the darkside. That makes no sense. Luke knows as well as anyone that those who fall can come back to the light so why would he, even for just a moment, consider Ben beyond redemption before his fall?

Who said anything about Ben being beyond redemption? Again, you make it sound like igniting his lightsaber was a conscious decision on Luke's part because he had given up on Ben, which is far more than what is actually depicted. Luke igniting the lightsaber seems to be an involuntary reaction to the evil he senses (which he immediately recognizes as such and feels ashamed about), not a conscious decision to kill Ben that he has to talk himself out of.

5 hours ago, RogueCorona said:

Yet all it takes is a vision that Luke knows is only a possible future and look what he does.

It's not like this behavior is new. I seem to remember him seeing a vision of the possible future in the OT, over reacting, ignoring two fully trained Jedi masters telling him no, and flying off to get his butt whooped.

One of the things I never understood was this deification of Luke. He's always been an imperfect character. It wasn't until the last couple minutes of screen time that he showed any level of control over himself....

I mean, even when he "redeemed" Vader he was hulking out on the dude.



I have a sneaking suspicion that the Legends EU is to blame for all these people who worship Luke.

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

One of the things I never understood was this deification of Luke.

Luke even explicitly warns against such behavior in TLJ.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

And this is where I think people are reading far too much into the scene. You make it sound like Luke's going to Ben's tent to kill him, and only catches himself at the last moment. Actually, Luke just says he was going to "confront" him, which could just as easily (if not more so) be taken to mean that he intended to talk to his nephew about it.

Who said anything about Ben being beyond redemption? Again, you make it sound like igniting his lightsaber was a conscious decision on Luke's part because he had given up on Ben, which is far more than what is actually depicted. Luke igniting the lightsaber seems to be an involuntary reaction to the evil he senses (which he immediately recognizes as such and feels ashamed about), not a conscious decision to kill Ben that he has to talk himself out of.

I find it funny how a lot of people are actually taking Ben's point of view from the movie. There is 3 flashback from this scene:

-First one is Luke telling it as if he was innocent and that Ben suddenly turned on him without any reasons

-Second one is Ben telling that he woke up only to see his uncle angry about to strike him down and kill me

-Third is from Luke again where he admits his faults in the story, that for a fleeting moment he thought about killing Ben but came to his senses right away and would never do it... but it was already too late because Ben saw him with his lightsaber ignited. This story shows that in the end, Luke is human like everyone else and can also have moments of weakness.

Luke was not going in the tent to kill Ben and would never have killed him. Seeing all the violence that his nephew would brought into the galaxy made him instinctivly ignite the lightsaber but as he turned the saber on he came to his senses and realise the error of his toughts. If Ben would not have woken up at this moment, Luke would have walk away. He did have the instinct to ignite his lightsaber and put an end to all this, but he also did resist the temptation. Just like he did resist the temptation to kill his father when he was beaten at his feet. He didn't went into the Death Star to kill his father but, from a moment of weakness, he was about to do it.

And yet, a lot of people remembers it like Ben, that Luke went there to kill him and was angrily about to strike. They are taking Ben side of the story as the truth, just like a lot of people seems to think that 'Letting go of the past, killing it if we have to' is the lesson from the movie. Come on guys, he's the villain... Giving up to our anger is also not the lesson from Episode 6...

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Actually, Luke just says he was going to "confront" him, which could just as easily (if not more so) be taken to mean that he intended to talk to his nephew about it.

Just like a parent goes to 'confront' their kids when they think they did or are about to do something bad... and I don't think it means they are walking into the room with a loaded gun...

6 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Giving up to our anger is also not the lesson from Episode 6...

No, the lesson of Episode 6 is that an enormous, well-equipped, professional military is no match for a handful of teddy bears.

7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

No, the lesson of Episode 6 is that an enormous, well-equipped, professional military is no match for a handful of teddy bears.

Well, they were dropping stones from gliders on them, what could possibly have been done!? I mean, from gliders!!!

1 minute ago, Red Castle said:

Well, they were dropping stones from gliders on them, what could possibly have been done!? I mean, from gliders!!!

The second Huge ship will be a massive space glider, when Ewoks are revealed as the fifth faction (after the Clone Wars stuff).

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

The second Huge ship will be a massive space glider, when Ewoks are revealed as the fifth faction (after the Clone Wars stuff).

Would make perfect sense! And I believe that this massive space glider is the secret weapon the Resistance needs to destroy the First Order and finding it is the plot from Episode 9! Why else do you think they are going back to Endor!?

2 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Would make perfect sense! And I believe that this massive space glider is the secret weapon the Resistance needs to destroy the First Order and finding it is the plot from Episode 9! Why else do you think they are going back to Endor!?

Why return to Endor? If the Ewoks have a space program now, we could encounter them on some other forest moon which looks just like Endor but totally isn't!

Also, a second Starkiller Base is orbiting it, but the Resistance can only go there after returning to Jakku to rescue Lando from Unkar Plutt, or something to that effect.

52 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Why return to Endor? If the Ewoks have a space program now, we could encounter them on some other forest moon which looks just like Endor but totally isn't!

Also, a second Starkiller Base is orbiting it, but the Resistance can only go there after returning to Jakku to rescue Lando from Unkar Plutt, or something to that effect.

As intentionally dumb as your idea is, I would squee a bit if one of the ideas that JJ is inspired by and/or completely rips off of people more clever than him is Lt Kettch. I will give the movie review another star if I hear “bleed and die! Yub! Yub!”

2 minutes ago, Church14 said:

As intentionally dumb as your idea is, I would squee a bit if one of the ideas that JJ is inspired by and/or completely rips off of people more clever than him is Lt Kettch. I will give the movie review another star if I hear “bleed and die! Yub! Yub!”

Ooh! Wraith Squadron saves the day!

Sadly, Ian Liston is no longer with us to play Janson, but perhaps Denis Lawson could make the triumphal return he should have made in Episode VII?

16 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ooh! Wraith Squadron saves the day!

Sadly, Ian Liston is no longer with us to play Janson, but perhaps Denis Lawson could make the triumphal return he should have made in Episode VII?

To be clear: An actual Ewok pilot OR an Old Wedge performing a puppet show during battle is acceptable to me for this.

Just now, Church14 said:

To be clear: An actual Ewok pilot OR an Old Wedge performing a puppet show during battle is acceptable to me for this.

Picture this:

Even with support from other worlds, the Resistance's chances look slim. Suddenly, the New Republic cruiser Salm exits hyperspace, surrounded by fighters.

Wedge: Defender Wing, get ready for an attack run on the enemy flagship. Commander Kettch, take Wraith Squadron and escort them in.

Kettch: Yub yub, General!

Wedge: Rogues, on me. We need to keep those fighters off the Falcon!

I mean, sure it would be pure pandering, but personally, I don't always mind being pandered to.

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

And this is where I think people are reading far too much into the scene. You make it sound like Luke's going to Ben's tent to kill him, and only catches himself at the last moment. Actually, Luke just says he was going to "confront" him, which could just as easily (if not more so) be taken to mean that he intended to talk to his nephew about it.

Who said anything about Ben being beyond redemption? Again, you make it sound like igniting his lightsaber was a conscious decision on Luke's part because he had given up on Ben, which is far more than what is actually depicted. Luke igniting the lightsaber seems to be an involuntary reaction to the evil he senses (which he immediately recognizes as such and feels ashamed about), not a conscious decision to kill Ben that he has to talk himself out of.

If memory serves he didn't just have the vision then ignite his weapon. He had the vision and chose to walk to Ben's tent then enter and activate the lightsaber. That's not an instinctive reaction because it takes too long and requires too many steps.

4 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

It's not like this behavior is new. I seem to remember him seeing a vision of the possible future in the OT, over reacting, ignoring two fully trained Jedi masters telling him no, and flying off to get his butt whooped.

One of the things I never understood was this deification of Luke. He's always been an imperfect character. It wasn't until the last couple minutes of screen time that he showed any level of control over himself....

I mean, even when he "redeemed" Vader he was hulking out on the dude.



I have a sneaking suspicion that the Legends EU is to blame for all these people who worship Luke.

What he saw on Dagoba was a vision of what was happening at the moment not a vision of the future. The part about the future being always in motion comes up when Luke asks if his friends will survive or not but what he sees is what is happening not what might happen.

And the overwhelming of Vader was in vastly different circumstances then what he says he did in The Last Jedi. Plus after overwhelming Vader he rejects the dark path he's walking down even though he's confronting the most horrible dark side master in Star Wars.

Basically the only way The Last Jedi works is if Luke forgets what he learned in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi

1 minute ago, RogueCorona said:

If memory serves he didn't just have the vision then ignite his weapon. He had the vision and chose to walk to Ben's tent then enter and activate the lightsaber. That's not an instinctive reaction because it takes too long and requires too many steps.

No one's disputing that he went to Ben's tent intentionally. The real question is when did he decide to ignite his lightsaber. It seems the "out of character" crowd imagines him walking from his room to Ben's over the course of several minutes, muttering, "I'm going to kill him," repeatedly the whole time, then raising his lightsaber before finally thinking, "Wait a moment..." If that's the way it happened, that would seem quite odd indeed, but I see no indication that that's how it happened.

Instead, what we see in Luke's final version is Luke going to Ben's to confront him (which I take to mean talking to him). Then, after seeing Ben, he ignites his saber and then immediately feels shame and perhaps even surprise for having done so. There's no indication that he meant to beforehand, and no indication that he actually considered continuing once he realized what he had done.

It just seems that some people are taking the worst possible reading simply to have an additional reason to hate the films. There's plenty of perfectly reasonable criticisms, so why not stick to those instead?

33 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:

If memory serves he didn't just have the vision then ignite his weapon. He had the vision and chose to walk to Ben's tent then enter and activate the lightsaber. That's not an instinctive reaction because it takes too long and requires too many steps.

He sensed a darkness in Ben so one night he went to Ben’s room and looked into his mind with the force. How far Ben had fallen, the darkness inside of him, etc. cause a gut reaction in Luke to strike down the evil. He ignited his lightsaber, and then stares at his own hand and weapon in shame as he realizes that he would strike someone down in cold blood, with no warning. Probably because he realized he should try to redeem the man.

Then Ben drops a house on him.

Nothing is out of character. Luke was an overly idealistic character who always had a dose of painful reality any time he tried to go after those ideals unchecked. Reality was always a few steps below what he wanted.

EDIT: deleted an unhelpful rant.

34 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:

If memory serves he didn't just have the vision then ignite his weapon. He had the vision and chose to walk to Ben's tent then enter and activate the lightsaber. That's not an instinctive reaction because it takes too long and requires too many steps.

This is wrong, though I understand why. The beautiful thing about this scene in TLJ is it plays heavily upon the philosophy of "from a certain point of view". Shown first to the viewer from the perspective of Luke's lie, then from the perspective of Kylo, and then again from the perspective of Luke's truth. The event's in the latter two are the same, just interpreted differently.

The event's as they actually happened:

Luke had sensed darkness growing in Ben throughout his training. Eventually, concerned that it may lead to him falling, Luke snuck into Ben's lodgings to try to see deeper into Ben's mind. By doing this, he saw the darkness manifested. He was also visited by a force vision of the future. This vision was of the Kylo Ren we know in the ST. It was at this point that he instinctually ignited his lightsaber. Realizing instantly that it was a mistake and that he had just set the future he saw into motion.

Based on what we know about force visions, from what we saw in EP VII when Rey touched his lightsaber, I'd say it's more than just a "vision" it appears that a force sensitive can be fully immersed in the vision.... if this is the case seeing Kylo go murder crazy up close would certainly be enough to cause someone to arm themselves.

Luke had no intention to kill Ben. He had no idea how far gone Ben already was. It wasn't until he saw Kylo Ren that he thought he could stop it, and therefore created it.

It seems like every time a force user sees the future it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, they can't change the event's because they've now seen them and therefore cause them to happen. Maybe they should stop? lol

47 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:

What he saw on Dagoba was a vision of what was happening at the moment not a vision of the future

This is arguable. Yoda states he's seeing the future. Seeing as the events of Dagoba and Cloud City happen over an unspecified amount of time, likely with some overlap. I believe this scene happens before they are being tormented, therefore Yoda recognizes it as the future.

47 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:

And the overwhelming of Vader was in vastly different circumstances then what he says he did in The Last Jedi. Plus after overwhelming Vader he rejects the dark path he's walking down even though he's confronting the most horrible dark side master in Star Wars.

Basically the only way The Last Jedi works is if Luke forgets what he learned in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi

I don't think that really matters....

In RotJ we see him attack Palpatine, stopped by Vader, when he sees his friends are being murdered.... At the same time, if Luke had a force vision of the future, who knows what it showed him. Kylo killing the pupils, killing innocent people, maybe even cutting Han down... I don't think it's a far stretch for any of these.... I could very easily see Luke having an aggressive response to seeing that.

And I base that on the fact that he's done it before....

I gotta disagree Luke's character wasn't changed for TLJ.

On 9/10/2019 at 12:51 AM, JJ48 said:

No, the lesson of Episode 6 is that an enormous, well-equipped, professional military is no match for a handful of teddy bears.

Are they professionals or conscripts? If clones, do they count as volunteers? Or do you mean “skilled”?

If the latter half of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st has taught us anything it’s that large advanced professional armies can often be bested by enthusiastic amateurs (who can be quite hairy).