On 8/28/2019 at 3:31 PM, Darth Sanguis said:

Exactly. They attacked places no one in the core cared about.

Let's talk about those numbers too.

How many Resurgent Class battle cruisers showed their face pre TFA? 2? 3? Even if they brought 10 or 20,
In terms of galactic warfare that's laughably small.

What do you mean "laughably small for galactic warfare?"

Remember, the ENTIRE RESISTANCE is explicitly confirmed in TLJ to contain a mere 3 Ships and roughly 500 people (assuming, let's say, 100 Resistance pilots died in the Starkiller Base and Bomb-the-Dreadnaght battles, leaving the "there's less than 400 of us" comment made in the film during the chase sequence).

Heck, 10 or 20 battle cruisers would be an immeasurably large force by the standards of Galactic Fleets established in TFA...


Now, whey the entire Galactic-Wide Resistance organization has about as many people as most high school graduating classes and about 1/12th the amount of people on a single real-world aircraft carrier are great questions...

51 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

That said we should be able to discern what is is going on with the source medium.

I both agree and disagree.

Star Wars has really evolved past being just a movie series. In order for them to make relevant media (comics, books, games) outside the cinematic universe and maintain canonical status, part of that story inherently has to be told outside the movies. I think with the new trilogy they chose the perfect parts to leave out in terms of information. It left viewers with a similar understanding of the universe as the new characters. Rey, unfamiliar with both the First Order and the Resistance get's to take in what is to her a new universe while still managing to reach out to the viewer who is at least partially familiar.

I do believe it should be easier for individuals who don't play the games read the comics or books to get caught up, but I don't think Disney has been wrong so far with the sequel trilogy. A 30 year gap between movies leaves such a vast amount of information. I feel like any dialogue about the state of the galaxy and the political intricacies would have felt shoehorned or poorly paced... They'd basically have to sprinkle 20 minutes of explanations throughout the movie. At that point TFA would have felt like it was only a setup and not it's own film, I think.

That said, I don't know how they'd fill that gap for people who don't follow alternate media.

39 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What do you mean "laughably small for galactic warfare?"

Remember, the ENTIRE RESISTANCE is explicitly confirmed in TLJ to contain a mere 3 Ships and roughly 500 people (assuming, let's say, 100 Resistance pilots died in the Starkiller Base and Bomb-the-Dreadnaght battles, leaving the "there's less than 400 of us" comment made in the film during the chase sequence).

Heck, 10 or 20 battle cruisers would be an immeasurably large force by the standards of Galactic Fleets established in TFA...


Now, whey the entire Galactic-Wide Resistance organization has about as many people as most high school graduating classes and about 1/12th the amount of people on a single real-world aircraft carrier are great questions...

I meant exactly what I said. The First Order's pre-TFA presence was laughably small.

SO WAS THE RESISTANCE.

Maybe you missed the part where I said

On 8/28/2019 at 3:31 PM, Darth Sanguis said:

the FO didn't show its true military presence until after the entire republic, and their cherished fleet, was atomized.

No one knew that the First Order was this military juggernaut until after star killer destroyed the republic.

NOT EVEN THE RESISTANCE.

The reason the resistance was so small? Not everyone believed the FO to be a real threat. That's not even mentioning that under the disarmament treaty with the empire, the resistance would likely be considered a fringe faction as well.... (which makes Hux's hate hard on for the republic make SO much more sense now in hindsight. He clearly thought the Resistance was sercretly being funded by the Republic, even if they weren't.)

19 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I both agree and disagree.

Star Wars has really evolved past being just a movie series. In order for them to make relevant media (comics, books, games) outside the cinematic universe and maintain canonical status, part of that story inherently has to be told outside the movies. I think with the new trilogy they chose the perfect parts to leave out in terms of information. It left viewers with a similar understanding of the universe as the new characters. Rey, unfamiliar with both the First Order and the Resistance get's to take in what is to her a new universe while still managing to reach out to the viewer who is at least partially familiar.

I do believe it should be easier for individuals who don't play the games read the comics or books to get caught up, but I don't think Disney has been wrong so far with the sequel trilogy. A 30 year gap between movies leaves such a vast amount of information. I feel like any dialogue about the state of the galaxy and the political intricacies would have felt shoehorned or poorly paced... They'd basically have to sprinkle 20 minutes of explanations throughout the movie. At that point TFA would have felt like it was only a setup and not it's own film, I think.

That said, I don't know how they'd fill that gap for people who don't follow alternate media.

I don’t blame Disney for wanting to utilize secondary mediums, nor do I fault them if they wanted to keep some elements “mysterious”. Additionally I think we can all agree we don’t want the films to get bogged down with exposition.

I don’t think I’d characterize their execution(the parts they opted to leave out) thus far as perfect, given how many of us are utterly befuddled despite being giant nerds so immersed in the material we post online about a game of plastic spaceship models and yet even we didn’t pick up on it.

Maybe ix will make it all clear and we’ll all look very silly in hindsight. But given there was no over-arching thought out plot (text book jj) and contrarian visions between directors of different films in the trilogy, you’ll have to forgive me for my skepticism on the matter.

Its felt like one one god awful disjointed poorly planned poorly conveyed mess. I would’ve taken things another way and done a lot of things differently. If you enjoyed it I’m happy for you, I only wish I could enjoy it the same way.

13 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

I don’t blame Disney for wanting to utilize secondary mediums, nor do I fault them if they wanted to keep some elements “mysterious”. Additionally I think we can all agree we don’t want the films to get bogged down with exposition.

I don’t think I’d characterize their execution(the parts they opted to leave out) thus far as perfect, given how many of us are utterly befuddled despite being giant nerds so immersed in the material we post online about a game of plastic spaceship models and yet even we didn’t pick up on it.

Maybe ix will make it all clear and we’ll all look very silly in hindsight. But given there was no over-arching thought out plot (text book jj) and contrarian visions between directors of different films in the trilogy, you’ll have to forgive me for my skepticism on the matter.

Its felt like one one god awful disjointed poorly planned poorly conveyed mess. I would’ve taken things another way and done a lot of things differently. If you enjoyed it I’m happy for you, I only wish I could enjoy it the same way.

That's fair.

Personally I have enjoyed it. I've found with the inclusion of the BFII game play, bloodlines book and the novelization of TLJ the universe actually makes a lot of sense. I liked the old EU, but I found that there were writers and styles that were confusing, and even stories that really just felt like fan fiction. (though I will say whoever decided Chunk Wendig should write a trilogy should be fired. there was so much happening in the Aftermath trilogy they could have cashed in big time, but instead we got him. They are painful to read.)

Seeing some of the bigger picture that Disney is putting together I think the post RotJ EU is going to make a lot more sense in the long run. Better than the Solo twins, Yuzhaan Vong and the One Sith ever could have.

4 hours ago, Norell said:

By the way, I wonder how much ILM asked for that shot. All tehy had to do is copy/paste the star destroyer a couple hundred times. I bet it was at least a few hundred thousand dollars

You can get away with that with shots of ships and machines and the like, as they're all SUPPOSED to look the same, so whatever.

Take a good look at the Rogue One poster where the same Stormtrooper is copied and pasted around to bulk up the image. Once you see it you can't unsee it. (I loved the movie, for what it's worth, but that poster was ALL cringe...)

On 8/29/2019 at 1:46 AM, Belisarius09 said:

And here I was thinking the fo was just a splinter faction of the galactic empire... great job conveying the state of the galaxy Disney.

Well, those guys they talked about were just a secret faction within the centrist movement in the Senate (which curiously was constantly on Hosnian prime in bloodlines. Wasn't it supposed to move throughout the galaxy according to the TFA visual dictionary?), who called themselves the First Order and were probably installed by the FO before they revealed himself. IIRC not all of them were aware of the larger FO initially, at least not the POV character within them.

On 8/28/2019 at 7:16 PM, Belisarius09 said:

We didn’t need the thrawn books to be put on screen. BUT vii had the wrong premise from the start. The resistance should’ve been the new republic. Being a separate entity made little to no sense. Just a cop out on the writers part because they don’t know how to write a story where the good guys aren’t the under dogs.

The list of what makes no sense in Episode VII is long....

On August 30, 2019 at 9:15 AM, Norell said:

Let's just all agree that the new trilogy is a rather stupid and sometimes confusing refilming of the OT.

By the way, I wonder how much ILM asked for that shot. All tehy had to do is copy/paste the star destroyer a couple hundred times. I bet it was at least a few hundred thousand dollars

I don't agree. I liked TFA. TLJ had serious issues, but had some decent parts. As for RoS, we will see.

TFA is a scene by scene reshot of ANH. All they did is that they added Finn who up to this point did nothing in the movies. If you would remove him, the event's wouldn't change, not even a bit.

Something something Star Wars fans will complain about anything something something Star wars fans are the worst something something.

Who even has the energy to listen to them whine about the new movies?

I'm just happy that Rise of the Skywalker is gonna be less crowded opening night. Last two sequel movies were sold out opening night, waited in a line for 40 minutes before even getting into the theater just to get a decent seat.... With all these toxic fanboys opting out, it ought to be quite an enjoyable experience this year.

9__9

3 hours ago, Norell said:

TFA is a scene by scene reshot of ANH. All they did is that they added Finn who up to this point did nothing in the movies. If you would remove him, the event's wouldn't change, not even a bit.

Don't care. Liked it. Lol.

As for RoS, the one thing I wish for is Thrawn.

On 8/30/2019 at 12:48 PM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

What do you mean "laughably small for galactic warfare?"

Remember, the ENTIRE RESISTANCE is explicitly confirmed in TLJ to contain a mere 3 Ships and roughly 500 people (assuming, let's say, 100 Resistance pilots died in the Starkiller Base and Bomb-the-Dreadnaght battles, leaving the "there's less than 400 of us" comment made in the film during the chase sequence).

Heck, 10 or 20 battle cruisers would be an immeasurably large force by the standards of Galactic Fleets established in TFA...


Now, whey the entire Galactic-Wide Resistance organization has about as many people as most high school graduating classes and about 1/12th the amount of people on a single real-world aircraft carrier are great questions...

It is probably just one cell actually

Also yeah, the entire thing is stupid. They restore the republic but dont make enough structural changes to the system to prevent fascism rising again. I get "a dark side did it" but only an obscene concentration of capital allowed smoke to build a significant industrial base simply through corruption.

Also the republic building up militias would make sense, and not be scary if done correctly. As opposed to clones with obedience chips to the supreme leader in their brain, have a decentralized planetary militia system with equipment and doctrine standardization through the central government. Also you could probably be morally justified in a war of aggression against the hutts. I get not wanting to destabilize the region, but they've been doing chattel slavery for how many hundreds of thousands of years now?

Dont get me wrong, the films are enjoyable, but you really have to turn your brain off sometimes

12 minutes ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

It is probably just one cell actually

Also yeah, the entire thing is stupid. They restore the republic but dont make enough structural changes to the system to prevent fascism rising again. I get "a dark side did it" but only an obscene concentration of capital allowed smoke to build a significant industrial base simply through corruption.

Also the republic building up militias would make sense, and not be scary if done correctly. As opposed to clones with obedience chips to the supreme leader in their brain, have a decentralized planetary militia system with equipment and doctrine standardization through the central government. Also you could probably be morally justified in a war of aggression against the hutts. I get not wanting to destabilize the region, but they've been doing chattel slavery for how many hundreds of thousands of years now?

Dont get me wrong, the films are enjoyable, but you really have to turn your brain off sometimes

I think you'd enjoy bloodlines.

On 8/30/2019 at 9:15 AM, Norell said:

Let's just all agree that the new trilogy is a rather stupid and sometimes confusing refilming of the OT.

By the way, I wonder how much ILM asked for that shot. All tehy had to do is copy/paste the star destroyer a couple hundred times. I bet it was at least a few hundred thousand dollars

I absolutely do not agree with this opinion.

7 hours ago, Norell said:

TFA is a scene by scene reshot of ANH. All they did is that they added Finn who up to this point did nothing in the movies. If you would remove him, the event's wouldn't change, not even a bit.

Finn rescues Poe. That’s significant enough.

...Which is more than Thor does in the first two Avengers movies and people still loved him.

TFA is close to a shot for shot remake though. Just one where the Rebellion isn’t so cripplingly stupid as they are in ANH

4 hours ago, Church14 said:

Finn rescues Poe. That’s significant enough.

...Which is more than Thor does in the first two Avengers movies and people still loved him.

TFA is close to a shot for shot remake though. Just one where the Rebellion isn’t so cripplingly stupid as they are in ANH

Resistance competency and rebel competency are inverse as you go through each respective trilogy

3 hours ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Resistance competency and rebel competency are inverse as you go through each respective trilogy

I dunno. Leia is staggeringly stupid in ANH and the attack on the first Death Star was designed to cost the maximum number of rebel casualties with the lowest chance of success

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

I dunno. Leia is staggeringly stupid in ANH and the attack on the first Death Star was designed to cost the maximum number of rebel casualties with the lowest chance of success

Maximum casualties is not attacking it. Or failing, which kills everyone anyway.

6 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Maximum casualties is not attacking it. Or failing, which kills everyone anyway.

Minimum casualties was calling up a new transport and NOT taking the Millenium Falcon - which she suspected was being tracked - to their base.

Minimum casualties during the attack would have been to send their squadrons directly at the exhaust port instead of having them fly around and strafe the surface of the Death Star. They spent so long on that pointless project that the Imperials had time to launch squadrons that weren’t at the ready.

Stupid was was flying into the trench at all. Watch the torpedoes curve hard when they reach the exhaust port. They were firing at some jacked up oblique angle that made the shot harder. Flying at an angle where the torpedoes could just go straight in would have been far smarter as they wouldn’t be stuck flying straight in that trench. It wasn’t like the trench was giving them cover. TIEs followed them in no problem and it’s shown that their arenturrets in the trench

So the Rebels took as long as possible to accomplish the mission in the most difficult way possible, maximizing casualties amongst their best weapons and minimizing chance of success. Take TFA: The Resistance Xwings race in, dump ordnance on target immediately, and only stay when the attack didn’t immediately succeed.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Minimum casualties was calling up a new transport and NOT taking the Millenium Falcon - which she suspected was being tracked - to their base.

Minimum casualties during the attack would have been to send their squadrons directly at the exhaust port instead of having them fly around and strafe the surface of the Death Star. They spent so long on that pointless project that the Imperials had time to launch squadrons that weren’t at the ready.

Stupid was was flying into the trench at all. Watch the torpedoes curve hard when they reach the exhaust port. They were firing at some jacked up oblique angle that made the shot harder. Flying at an angle where the torpedoes could just go straight in would have been far smarter as they wouldn’t be stuck flying straight in that trench. It wasn’t like the trench was giving them cover. TIEs followed them in no problem and it’s shown that their arenturrets in the trench

So the Rebels took as long as possible to accomplish the mission in the most difficult way possible, maximizing casualties amongst their best weapons and minimizing chance of success. Take TFA: The Resistance Xwings race in, dump ordnance on target immediately, and only stay when the attack didn’t immediately succeed.

1) Imperial shuttles/transports more likely have tracking devices than a rogue transport. Th Falcon was Leia's best bet, because it only POSSIBLY was bugged.

2) Read the book! It will explain why they attacked as they did. Exactly because they couldn't have reached the exhaust port in time. In the book it is explained that most of the squadrons made a diversive attack and the few squadrons (Gold and Red) were sneaking upon the real target.

3) If they would have attack from any other angle, the torpedos would have made TWO turns instead of one, as the exhaust was parallel with the surface of the Death Star.

1 hour ago, Norell said:

1) Imperial shuttles/transports more likely have tracking devices than a rogue transport. Th Falcon was Leia's best bet, because it only POSSIBLY was bugged.

2) Read the book! It will explain why they attacked as they did. Exactly because they couldn't have reached the exhaust port in time. In the book it is explained that most of the squadrons made a diversive attack and the few squadrons (Gold and Red) were sneaking upon the real target.

3) If they would have attack from any other angle, the torpedos would have made TWO turns instead of one, as the exhaust was parallel with the surface of the Death Star.

1) No other smugglers or pirates or rebel ships could meet them somewhere and have her hop ships? BS.

2) So their plan was to wake up a battle station and start a fight. Then try to send in a sneak attack. That’s complex stupid, not smart.

Also, I’m evaluating the movie on its own merits. No post-movie fluff written to fill in gaps post-release. People who go after TFA don’t want to have to read the extra-movie material so they don’t get to defend ANH with extra-movie material.

Last, “sneak attack” isn’t what occurs in the movie. The relevant line in the movie that I remember is “Sir, several fighters have broken off from the main group.” Red and gold didn’t sneak in. They showed up, shot the place up, and then tried to waltz off. The book is retconning.

3) Again, extra-movie fluff doesn’t count. The torpedoes are shown to have been shot straight down the trench, parallel to the surface. They then make a hard 90 degree turn downwards as they enter the exhaust port. This implies the exhaust port opening is straight up. Not parallel to the surface.

That the attack is really stupid doesn’t take away from the really impressive editing to turn it into a tense, dramatic sequence.

8 minutes ago, Church14 said:

People who go after TFA don’t want to have to read the extra-movie material so they don’t get to defend ANH with extra-movie material.

On 8/30/2019 at 6:15 AM, Norell said:

Let's just all agree that the new trilogy is a rather stupid and sometimes confusing refilming of the OT.

I also disagree.

And I also add that any coincidental re-filming of the OT that occurs in 9 will likely be the result of fans whining up and down how much they hated The Last Jedi, which tried to be bold and do something different. Since a vocal portion of the fan community communicated that they don't like new and different things I'm dreading 9 will be some sort of re-hash of 6. After all, palpatine's coming back. So much for a new generation.

And honestly I'm happy we didn't get the thrawn trilogy all over again because I'm not interested in a televised version of something I could read the books to know the story for.

On 8/30/2019 at 9:48 AM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Remember, the ENTIRE RESISTANCE is explicitly confirmed in TLJ to contain a mere 3 Ships and roughly 500 people (assuming, let's say, 100 Resistance pilots died in the Starkiller Base and Bomb-the-Dreadnaght battles, leaving the "there's less than 400 of us" comment made in the film during the chase sequence).

But I look in the incredible cut-section books which claim the Resistance have several Nebulon-Cs. Where are they, if they aren't on screen? Clearly this communicates to me that it wasn't intended for that fleet to be the literal final batch of the Resistance.

Quote

TFA is a scene by scene reshot of ANH. All they did is that they added Finn who up to this point did nothing in the movies. If you would remove him, the event's wouldn't change, not even a bit.

Please don't be this hyperbolic. TFA doesn't have an Obi-wan analogue as a sage character to advise the protagonist and get the story rolling. Rey isn't motivated to accept the call by the death of some connection on her home planet as Luke was. There are parallels, but saying it's a shot-for-shot is disingenuous to what TFA offers to the saga. Stop fixating on sand planets and death stars. I mean, you wouldn't claim that Return of the Jedi is a shot-for-shot remake of A New Hope would you? Both start on Tatooine and end with a battle around a death star. I don't recall people complaining that they were the same film.

11 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I also disagree.

And I also add that any coincidental re-filming of the OT that occurs in 9 will likely be the result of fans whining up and down how much they hated The Last Jedi, which tried to be bold and do something different. Since a vocal portion of the fan community communicated that they don't like new and different things I'm dreading 9 will be some sort of re-hash of 6. After all, palpatine's coming back. So much for a new generation.

And honestly I'm happy we didn't get the thrawn trilogy all over again because I'm not interested in a televised version of something I could read the books to know the story for.

I mean that’s a nice strawman. I don’t know who you’re responding to when you say people disliked viii for being “bold and different.” That’s certainly not the issue I take with viii, i don’t even consider it to be all that different.

@Darth Sanguis and I manage to have very civil discussions over our different opinions of the films. We can respect each others different points of view even if we disagree. Try taking a page out of his book.

How did this topic get so derailed anyways? Am I responsible for this? My bad.

Something that’s been bugging me from the trailer/picture in the op. All the isds are on like a single flat plane. Maybe Armada is more accurate than we thought, even the films forget space is 3D! XD