1 hour ago, Eldan985 said:

That would actually be a very easy way to handle Lily Chen. Gain +1 combat per free hand slot, max +2.

Perhaps bonus damage rather than bonus combat, as the Machete is more useful than that.

9 hours ago, Eldan985 said:

Gloria as a survivor is interesting, I never considered that for her (my bets were Seeker and Mystic). But now that we have these pseudo four-class investigators, I suppose she could be a Survivor with options on Mystic, Seeker and... uh, guardian, for healing?

If we're doing five four-color investigators this cycle, here's my bets:

• Joe: Rogue with a non-Mystic subclass (confirmed)
• Mandy: Seeker with a non-Guardian subclass (confirmed)
• Luke: Mystic with a non-Survivor subclass (Survivor has the least synergy with his ability)
• Lily: Guardian with a non-Rogue subclass (makes perfect sense for her)
• Daniela: Survivor with a non-Seeker subclass (it's the last combination, and she seems to fit it best)

2 hours ago, Duciris said:

Perhaps bonus damage rather than bonus combat, as the Machete is more useful than that.

I agree bonus damage would be needed if the goal was for her to actually fight unarmed. If she had some other way to get extra damage in a turn that might be an alternative. Maybe for each empty hand slot she get's an extra action just used for attacking. She'd have no bonus damage but would have an opportunity to do an extra 2 damage a turn if she made both those checks when her hands were empty. That would be interesting. That with a melee only weapon caveat would be pretty cool.

My guesses are Tommy Muldoon in the guardian slot, and Sister Mary in the Survivor slot

On 8/23/2019 at 3:17 PM, Sindriss said:

Not necessarily. We just got 2 Mystics in the last cycle. Their releases seem to be quite chaotic.

I did the card count. We are getting 5 investigators

I realise I may be in a minority with this view, but I really hope that Lily Chen doesn't have an ability that is like "Can punch for extra damage". It seems way too on-the-nose and uncreative.

By all means, releasing a Talent asset like Martial Arts, or Martial Prowess from Eldritch Horror, that lets you do more with the attack action or whatever, would be awesome...as an option for all investigators. If you have to make it part of her base kit, a signature asset maybe. But I'd prefer her actual investigator ability to be a little less...literal. Something like a bonus or discount for Talent assets, to represent her disciplined training, or take her Eldritch Horror ability to take Horror to heal Damage and vice versa. To me, giving her a baked-in "good at punching" would be like giving Silas Marsh an ability like...free move to locations with the Aquatic trait, or giving Finn Edwards the ability to pack extra alcohol-based cards, or giving Zoey a bonus to, I dunno, preparing food. The majority of investigators have abilities that both subtly push them towards a specific playstyle and open up interesting combinations or interactions together with their deckbuilding, and even the more blatently on-brand abilities like Daisy Walker's free tome use or Jenny Barnes' extra resource a round support a variety of approaches and give you a branching range of ways to build, instead of something that is de facto "you start with a Machete in play" or whatever.

That, and "+1 damage when fighting unarmed" is actually really difficult to balance properly.

Well to a certain extent these things need to be on the nose if you want the investigators to play a certain way. You need to make her feel like a martial artist. Not just a Mark that can be better at paying for Talents. I agree just a blanket +1 damage is probably not the most interesting solution though.

If she just has a sig asset in her deck that let's her fight better unarmed it will almost never matter. Zoey's cross came out onto the board like 3 times for me in my recent Return To Dunwich Legacy run through. If it's an asset then it needs to start in play like Preston and Ashcan's assets. Otherwise it will hardly be defining. Though at that point what's the difference between it being on the asset and being on her card. It's just where they print it and if it needs to be an asset for mechanical purposes. If you don't give her some way to be effective at fighting unarmed or improve her ability to fight with melee weapons she'll just be another Flamethrower Guardian, which would be a shame. Unfortunately in this game effective at fighting means doing at least two damage in an action.

I like the idea of forcing her hands to be free. If you say melee weapons only and give a bonus per open hand you can still give alot of flexibility to deck builds. Also that would feel more flavorful than Lily running around with a Lightning Gun. You don't want "too on the nose" Allonym, but I'm just as scared of "not on the nose enough".

Another option is her have some sort of repeatable Act Of Desperation like ability so she can repeatedly hit people with items in her hand. That would be funny.

I don't think it's that difficult to balance. Somehow Ashcan isn't OP even though he has a damage accelerator out turn 1. It just needs some draw back to make it fit with the other combat options. Maybe she needs to do a damage to herself to trigger the fight ability. Maybe she can only trigger the fight action on an Evaded enemy or an Enemy not engaged with you. That would be sort of flavorful in that she needs to use her agility while she's fighting to move around and catch the enemy off guard with her punches and kicks.

Honestly, seeing how survivor runs on cheap and easy survivability options (perseverance, keepsake/coat,) and events that are so suited to Lilly like "Improvised Weapon," I really hope they don't make her a guardian. I'd much prefer a survivor that can fight on similar terms to guardians while also being able to pull off reactive abilities (ie the majority of survivor events). She just does not feel like a guardian to me in anything other than the connotation (protector of the people).

I'd much prefer see Lilly running around with Peter or a Guiding Spirit or Madame LeBranche than cops, the fed backup, or junkyard dogs.

But she really would need a way to do more that 2 damage per attack, or just extra attack actions, if she is going to hope to approach being a primary damage dealer.

The more we talk about it the more Survivor feels right for her. Though I can see why she would be defined as a Guardian based on the definition of what a Guardian is in this game. That said Carolyn is a Guardian and doesn't play at all like a Guardian would normally so I have faith. Maybe we'll get a Guardian that plays more like a Survivor.

I am super interested to see how they handle Lily, whenever we finally get her. She could go guardian or survivor, and really manipulate either class.

I would love to see Gloria come out to play too and she makes a lot of sense.

15 hours ago, Duciris said:

Perhaps bonus damage rather than bonus combat, as the Machete is more useful than that.

I considered it, but +2 bonus damage would be really good for free. +1 combat per free hand, +1 damage if both hands are free?

Some survivor cards fit her, but the archetype doesn't. She isn't a normal person desperately trying to escape a supernatural threat. She trained her entire life for this.

Lily Chen seems like she would be a guardian, because her story is about protecting others against threats they cannot fend off themselves. I wonder if she is going to have a power similar to her Eldritch Horror variant, where she can trade damage between her health and her sanity. I also think she will be stated 7-7 in health and sanity respectively.

Also, having Lily do +1 damage on attacks in which she has her hands free of assets doesn't seem so OP, because eventually, as a guardian, you want a weapon that does more than +1 damage to deal with endgame threats.

5 hours ago, C2K said:

Also, having Lily do +1 damage on attacks in which she has her hands free of assets doesn't seem so OP, because eventually, as a guardian, you want a weapon that does more than +1 damage to deal with endgame threats.

Which is the opposite side of it being really hard to balance. If you're just going to overwrite her martial arts training with a better weapon, then you're effectively playing a blank investigator. She might have a very good emergency option, but you don't want to have to rely on that, so you generally won't rely on that.

I think the idea with the Lily spitballing is that she would not need a weapon to start fighting regular enemies. Though a kick to the head probably wouldn't be enough to take out Umordhoth. Certainly I've run into that problem with Ashcan.

Maybe an attack that evades an enemy would be cool. Kinda a reverse Rita. If she hits unarmed she could daze them and then follow up with a weapon attack. That would give that upgraded attack action some utility throughout the game.

I guess moving health and sanity around would be reasonably thematic as a way to show her discipline. As long as her body can still move and she still has the will to fight on she'll not go down. Though optimally I'd still like her to be able to fight reasonably without needing to resort to a .45 automatic.

A friend of mine wanted to play a martial artist so I've been playing around with ideas for a custom character... Since that's what people are basically doing for Lily, I thought I'd throw in what I've been thinking.

Guardian

Stats: 3, 2, 2, 4

Abilities: When performing a fight action, base combat =agility.

<reaction > when performing a fight action, increase difficulty by 1 to increase damage by 1 (once per attack)

<reaction > when performing a fight action, increase difficulty by 2 to increase damage by 1 (once per attack)

Construction: Guardian 0-5, Talents 0-3

Special card: Asset, may play talents from the discard pile.

There are a lot of ways you can go with martial artists...

I was playing AH: Final Hour tonight and noticed Lily's deck list. Her abilities include above average movement before attacks & good attacks, but only at her location (unlike the 3 with guns, each of whom can attack at least 1 location away with 1 or more of their 5 card pairs). There is one card in particular that calls out for special discussion.

All AH: Final Hour cards have a top (good) action and a bottom (probably good but also definitely bad) action. Depending on when it's played in the round (first 2 or last 2) determines which it is (top or bottom).

Quote

Child of Prophecy

Move up to 2 times. Then, attack monsters at your location for 3 damage.

You may lose 1 health to attack for 10 damage instead.

Every danger is an opportunity.

---

Move up to 1 time. Then, investigate your location.

Then, activate monsters in the X zone. [X = green (locations 1-5) or the orange (locations 11-15).]

Each pair of cards has the same name and top half. The bottom has a variable, or is their "signature weakness". The variable is usually a different zone or the location(s) you spawn monsters.

Her "signature weakness" is on her card, Meditate. Her negative on it is pretty meh compared to others'.

Quote

Meditate

Resolve up to 2 of the following effects in any order:

• Move 1 time.
• Repair your location 1 time.
• Seal a walkway connected to your location. Place it gray side faceup.
• Recover 1 health

Remember the sunset on Moiunt Hua.

----

Burden of Destiny:

Choose another investigator. You and that investigator each lose 1 health.

• The next monster that moves through a Sealed Walkway dies. They usually start on the gold side and flip to the gray side. The next time they would flip, they're lost.
• Each location has a finite number of spaces monsters can exist (2-4 each). Damage (which can be "repaired" (cleared)) takes up a space. When too many monsters are in the Ritual Site, the game ends.
• There are Gates on the board which spawn monsters based on the number of gates at that location when the new one is placed during the Ancient One phase.

For reference:

Quote

Tommy's Protect and Serve has on its lower half Rookie Mistake:

• Damage your location and each adjacent location 1 time.

Michael's Work the Door has Thirst for Revenge:

• Damage your location 3 times. If you cannot place all 3 damage tokens, then lose 1 health.

Rita's Hurdle has Race the Stopwatch:

• Reveal and place the top token of the gate stack, but do not spawn monsters. If there are no gate tokens to reveal, spawn 5 monsters in your location instead.

Jenny's A Color for All Seasons has Searching for Izzie:

• Move exactly 5 times without entering the same location twice. Each time you enter a location, spawn 1 monster there.

Pete's Vision of the End Times has An Unavoidable Future:

• Discard the top card of your action deck and resolve its bottom effect. You cannot move or investigate while resolving that card.

One of Pete's best abilities involves Duke grabbing the top item card off the deck and giving it to the investigator of your choice. (Otherwise, the max number of item cards that can be gained are 3.)

One of Jenny's best abilities involve manipulating the priority cards played which can change the bad thing that happens during the Reckoning phase (which is based on the Omen symbols on played cards. Another one allows everyone to deal 2xCommitted Priority cards (1-2) damage to monsters at their location.

Tl;dr Lily's biggest move in AH: Final Hour is to attack monsters at her location, or suffer 1 damage (there is no sanity in this game) to deal over 3 times as much damage instead.

Hm. If we really want to play up the short range, we could give her an ability along the lines of bonus damage to enemies engaged with her? Or some kind of movement power, we don't have a mobile guardian yet. Free engage action per turn? Free engage after a move? Free move if you kill an enemy?

Alternatively... we could get Hank? High psychology, low health, and he just smacks things with his big hammer? He might make a good addition for a Guardian card as well.

8 hours ago, Eldan985 said:

Or some kind of movement power, we don't have a mobile guardian yet. Free engage action per turn? Free engage after a move? Free move if you kill an enemy?

A flying kick that combines a move with a +1 damage attack but damages you if you miss?

7 hours ago, redcapjack said:

Alternatively... we could get Hank? High psychology, low health, and he just smacks things with his big hammer? He might make a good addition for a Guardian card as well.

I had always considered him a "for sure" Survivor, but I could see an argument for him to be a Guardian. If I was considering just theme I would have put Hank in a Dunwich themed cycle so clearly he missed his thematic boat. He could be in any cycle now.

2 minutes ago, phillos said:

I had always considered him a "for sure" Survivor, but I could see an argument for him to be a Guardian. If I was considering just theme I would have put Hank in a Dunwich themed cycle so clearly he missed his thematic boat. He could be in any cycle now.

Survivor off-class maybe, Survivors don't have the cards for a straight up monster killer.

Just now, Sindriss said:

Survivor off-class maybe, Survivors don't have the cards for a straight up monster killer.

No but they do have weapons. Hank seems more of a hit the enemy with a shovel type guy than a grab that BAR and go to town type investigator.

30 minutes ago, phillos said:

No but they do have weapons. Hank seems more of a hit the enemy with a shovel type guy than a grab that BAR and go to town type investigator.

I really don't see him as a survivor. Thematically they represent victims who fight out of desperation, the last one standing in a horror movie. Hank is a killer with no real concept of fear.