Come on guys, how was the first response to this thread not:

They're on Dantooine

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Luke + Dash

I'll stop you right there.

Anyone who thinks Dash is potentially viable in competition has never played him. I say this with a win or two under my belt at long last, and I'd like to think I'm not such a bad pilot myself (though mostly casual). Dash is obscenely overpriced, as is the Outrider title.

On the other hand, both Han and Lando have some very real competitive potential. Luke/Han could well be a top-tier 2-ship list if tricked out correctly.

Had a couple of fun games with Luke (R2-D2), Wedge (knockoff R2), and 2x Ion Cannon Turret Grey Bombers. Probably not an unfair enough list to win big events, but honest fun. Well, as honest as init kills get, but still. Plain Turret Y-Wings seemed like they contributed. Nothing too excessive (some chip damage, some control), but simply having shots nearly every turn is nice for a low-init ship. Might take it out again sometime.

I feel like R2-D2 is worth it on Luke, but I'm not sure regen is needed on Wedge. Just go Predator and +2 bid (for 4 rather than 2)?

Meta Wing 2.0 - List Archetypes (recent)

Top 10 - no Rebel list

Top 20 - one Rebel list

Top 40 - three Rebel lists

Meta Wing 2.0 - Ship Types (recent)

Top 10 - no Rebel ship

Top 20 - one Rebel ship

Top 40 - four Rebel ships

Canadian Grand Championships 2019

Top 16 - One Rebel list

European Championships, finished yesterday. Extended format.

"Star Wars™: X-Wing European Championships Day 1A are underway with 147 players competing for the title and trip to World Championships. Day 1B starts tomorrow, and Day 2 on Sunday, so stay tuned!

Day 1A Faction Breakdown:
7 Separatist Alliance
12 First Order
16 Rebel Alliance
24 Resistance
25 Scum and Villainy
28 Galactic Republic
35 Galactic Empire"

"Day 1B of the Star Wars™: X-Wing European Championships is underway with 220 players.

Faction breakdown:
Separatist Alliance - 16
Scum and Villainy - 21
First Order - 27
Resistance - 31
Rebel Alliance - 33
Galactic Republic - 37
Galactic Empire - 55."

"Star Wars™: X-Wing players! European Championships Day 2 has begun, with the 41 players that qualified facing off in the elimination bracket here: https://challonge.com/x3ud4md0

Faction Breakdown:
14 Galactic Empire
11 Galactic Republic
5 Resistance
6 Scum and Villainy
2 Rebel Alliance
2 Separatist Alliance
1 First Order"

Nobody disputes that Rebels are not as strong as before the last points adjustment: that was one of the reasons for those adjustments! Previously, around 50% of each event were Rebels, rising in the cuts.

At the Euros, Rebels performed similarly to Scum. Both factions were too good; both have been nerfed. Resistance were also similar, and all 3 were better than FO and Seps. This puts Rebels equal 3rd out of the 7 factions. That's fine - closer rankings would be better though, but Seps and FO need help more than Rebels. Scum also are weaker in Hyperspace than Extended.

Empire, despite the (repeated) Phantom nerfs, were dominant. Republic also performed strongly. If this continues for the next few months, we can expect them to be nerfed too.

Am I getting this right.. you have posted the total number of lists per faction on day 1 and day 2 first?

Then there is the results, which shows that only 2 Rebel lists have reached the elemination bracket?

This pretty much proves my point, that Rebels is not a good choice if you want to play & win a tournament these days.

I must admit, that one or two factions are in a similar state, but this could have other reasons.

Regarding Rebels, it must have been the Nerf hammer, which screwed the whole faction. Almost every good ship got nerfed.

37 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Am I getting this right.. you have posted the total number of lists per faction on day 1 and day 2 first?

Then there is the results, which shows that only 2 Rebel lists have reached the elemination bracket?

This pretty much proves my point, that Rebels is not a good choice if you want to play & win a tournament these days.

I must admit, that one or two factions are in a similar state, but this could have other reasons.

Regarding Rebels, it must have been the Nerf hammer, which screwed the whole faction. Almost every good ship got nerfed.

Yes. And I agree with what you say here.

Rebels were nerfed.

My conclusions are different: I see this as a good thing, rather than something to lament. Rebels are now similarly good/bad as 2 other factions, better than 2, and worse than the other 2.

Before the nerf, Rebels were far and away the best choice for Hyperspace and only edged out by Tie Phantoms in extended. Now, several different Imp lists and Republic lists are the top choices. I expect them to be nerfed next time, whilst FO and Seps get a small buff.

20 hours ago, Roller of blanks said:

You do realize that almost Every popular rebel archetype since the beginning of the game has been based around spreading damage

And the person I was responding to couldn't grasp that spreading damage was good

43 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

And the person I was responding to couldn't grasp that spreading damage was good

The he dosen't represent the "rebel players" at all then.

7 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Regarding Rebels, it must have been the Nerf hammer, which screwed the whole faction. Almost every good ship got nerfed.

You should be an FO from the start of 2.0 player and you'd not be so salty.

6 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Before the nerf, Rebels were far and away the best choice for Hyperspace and only edged out by Tie Phantoms in extended. Now, several different Imp lists and Republic lists are the top choices. I expect them to be nerfed next time, whilst FO and Seps get a small buff.

I think this is the case. The designers are making, for the most part, tweaks here and there and keeping the overpowered out best they can.

On 8/23/2019 at 5:51 PM, MasterShake2 said:

My personal opinion is that the Rebel's biggest and strongest archetype, 4 ship, is currently being done much better by Resistance (Finn and T-70s are performing quite well by comparison to the core pilots/ships for Rebel 4 ship). They also don't really have a great ace list or a good swarm list. The only list that Rebels can kind of do pretty good is fat Han + 1 or 2. Even that archetype is only doing mediocre. I was reluctant to put Rebels that far down on initial rankings because their 4 ship was so good last points change, but as the data started rolling in, it became clear that their 4 ship just wasn't doing it and they didn't have another archetype to fall back on.

I think you got it, right here. This is what I think most people saying rebels are "okay" and not "bad" are missing.

3 hours ago, Roller of blanks said:

The he dosen't represent the "rebel players" at all then.

There was also an old joke a while back, where "rebel players" are bad, and the only reason they do well is because players from other factions played them.

Also, "rebel players" are still bad:

They still don't know who Biggs is. (he's been used 21 times since Wave 4, twice without config, whereas Arvel has been used 36 times and Thane 34)

On 8/23/2019 at 6:53 AM, Smikies02 said:

Further proving that the issue with the Rebel faction is the Rebel players.

Can't understand the value of spreading damage, and keeping ships on the board.

Really though, they are probably the most balanced. Their best archetype is beef, but they can play other types effectively. Maybe a bit of other factions do the other archetypes better is keeping their numbers down. Then again, they're definitely going to seem lower after they were everywhere last point update.

This guy is an idiot, please don't lump him in with the rest of us. All of the Rebel players I know understand why Selfless and Biggs effects are good.

On 8/26/2019 at 2:30 AM, Schu81 said:

Am I getting this right.. you have posted the total number of lists per faction on day 1 and day 2 first?

Then there is the results, which shows that only 2 Rebel lists have reached the elemination bracket?

I'd argue that this speaks more to Empire and Republic needing repowering than Rebel needing un-nerfed. The answer to Quad Phantoms and Rebel Beef wasn't to bring everything up to their level, but to depower them. This doesn't mean each of the lower faction don't need adjustments, (Scum and Rebels do need some love) but the two top factions need addressing first.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I'd argue that this speaks more to Empire and Republic needing repowering than Rebel needing un-nerfed. The answer to Quad Phantoms and Rebel Beef wasn't to bring everything up to their level, but to depower them. This doesn't mean each of the lower faction don't need adjustments, (Scum and Rebels do need some love) but the two top factions need addressing first.

Yes and no:

CIS and Resistance usually break even or do slightly above average in Extended and Hyperspace, Scum does well in extended, but tanks in hyperspace. Republic and Empire overperform in both formats to a noteworthy degree. Rebels and FO rarely if ever get positive cut percentages.

Merely dropping Republic and Empire down, still leaves Rebels and FO at the bottom. The problem IS Rebels power level, but that doesn't Empire and Republic shouldn't be pulled down a little or that Rebels should be pushed all the way up to their level

On 8/23/2019 at 10:07 AM, Bucknife said:

Where's Luke T65?

Where's Dash?

Where's the Ghost?

Is the Sabine Attack Shuttle costed out?

Where are the Wookies?

E-Wings?

Luke - Takes up too many points to fit in a 4 ship

Dash - Too expensive / large bases are still bad

Ghost - Too expensive and large bases are bad (very different case to the Outrider but same underlying issues)

Sabine - Don't know. She's still good, maybe i3 is the reason?

Wookies - Easily the worst ship in the faction

E-wings - They might be alright now, ship count is probably keeping them out

Ok aside from my overly simplistic and somewhat flippant responses to the ships in question, I think there are few overarching perceptions the community shares for the rebel faction. Overall the i4 (average) 4 ship lists just do really well right now. Large bases (and wookiees) currently don't really do anything a U-wing can't do. The Outrider and the Ghost have 4 dice sure but when you can fit two guns for the price of one, its just bad math at the moment.

These 4 (fair)ship lists are also relatively easy to fly, which I think is the reason they're taken over things like Luke and Sabine etc. Sabine doesn't really work in formation either.

On 8/23/2019 at 10:18 AM, Bucknife said:

....and Turret Ywings?

Are they dead simply because VTG went up to 8?

Would anyone take a Yion over a U-Wing?

And we're seeing four U-Wings succeed and seeing ZERO Y-Wings?

What am I missing? Or does the Rebel floor need some more tweaks?

U-wings are quicker, have an extra green die, can turn like a turret, and have more shields. They have a lot of benefits over a Y-wing if you're not banking on ordnance or ion effects.

I personally do alright with 4 ship rebels, in particular the SNES controller (ABYX) I fly wedge Ten Jake and Norra but any 4 named pilots Wil do. I like this list cuz it feels like a swiss army knife. Could be a formation. Could split up, each ship does fine on its own. Fanning them out to "pincer" the opponent is my best strategy yet. It is a nice combo of fast and slow ships and gets the job done. Flew it pre points change and it did just as good

It seems indeed that Rebels are now on a though spot, but the fact that every single list played was rebel beef, with named B-wings/Cassian/Wedge and that all of them got bumped up in points, means that there is no simple alternative in sight.

The two Rebel players who made tops in the European Championship played a list very similar to the classic Rebel beef, just changing Wedge for Arvel on her A-wing with Intimidation.

Unfortunately it seems that it will be a long wait until January for Rebels to have a chance again, as no releases are on the horizon before that.

As one of the two Rebel players that made the cut i just wanted to point out that both of us flew the exact same list. Rebel beef is still alive and kickin

20 hours ago, Enzeru said:

As one of the two Rebel players that made the cut i just wanted to point out that both of us flew the exact same list. Rebel beef is still alive and kickin

Good flying, @Enzeru! Welcome to the pits...I mean, forums. We're not all that crazy here. Just most of us... mostly crazy.

What about rebel ARCs? Norra's ability on a medium base will net you good results, and is there a way to make Shara work?

Don't see why we can't make Like work. Sure, he's no Aethersprite but with r2 hes 3 points cheaper than Windu with delta B and r2.

Sure, Luke doesn't have three force but that's kinda irrelevant due to his ability

Now, if you can obi and 3 arcs, you can do four ship Luke. Question now is what backup you'll use

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:49 AM, Hiemfire said:

could run luke and wedge plus jake and arval
that fits in 200

1 hour ago, Npmartian said:

What about rebel ARCs? Norra's ability on a medium base will net you good results, and is there a way to make Shara work?

ARC-170 Starfighter - •Norra Wexley - 67
•Norra Wexley - Gold Nine (55)
Intimidation (3)
•“Zeb” Orrelios (1)
•R2-D2 (4)
Shield Upgrade (4)

ARC-170 Starfighter - •Shara Bey - 66
•Shara Bey - Green Four (50)
Expert Handling (4)
•Saw Gerrera (9)
R3 Astromech (3)

BTL-A4 Y-wing - •“Dutch” Vander - 66
•“Dutch” Vander - Gold Leader (40)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
•“Chopper” (2)
Proton Bombs (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Total: 199/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

But it demands a lot of your flying. Since you have the higher initiative ship wanting to be the one that gets all up in the mess. This is an untried version they I've tweaked pretty good since the last time I had it out. Didn't feel I was getting enough out of the tail gunners. Also had tactical scrambler and R3 on Norra.

It is similar to a 1E list I had some small success with. The 2E versions are a little less efficient without the lock passing of 1E Shara and Dutch but it doesn't come apart as quick if you lose a ship.

It has been fun at casual night.

On 8/29/2019 at 12:25 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Don't see why we can't make Like work. Sure, he's no Aethersprite but with r2 hes 3 points cheaper than Windu with delta B and r2.

Sure, Luke doesn't have three force but that's kinda irrelevant due to his ability

Now, if you can obi and 3 arcs, you can do four ship Luke. Question now is what backup you'll use

I tried out the list below with Luke at our weekly game night and really enjoyed flying him. Despite having the A-wing nuked most games the list performed pretty well. The A-wing took a lot of heat off the other pilots and allowed Luke to shine.

My experience with Rebels since the last points change is that a solid four ship lists starts with two b-wings and flavors to taste from there.

(62) Luke Skywalker [T-65 X-wing]

(0) Servomotor S-foils

(5) Sense

Points: 67

(51) Braylen Stramm [A/SF-01 B-wing]

(0) Jamming Beam

Points: 51

(48) Ten Numb [A/SF-01 B-wing]

(0) Jamming Beam

Points: 48

(30) Phoenix Squadron Pilot [RZ-1 A-wing]

(3) Intimidation

Points: 33

Total points: 199