1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Huh. My players are beginning players and we don't have those problems aside from the occasional forgetfulness of "What's simple again?"

Oh i am sure you will have them. Especially as their characters get more complicated

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Oh i am sure you will have them. Especially as their characters get more complicated

Perhaps.

On 8/20/2019 at 2:47 AM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

One reason I don't want to just do a crit is because as the CRB says: "gravity kills." two pointed and accurate words. Gravity does kill, and doling out damage, especially once you get to the incapacitating levels, illustrates that point well and impresses upon the players the gravity of the situation (Ooouccch, I shouldn't have). To fall a mile (even if a ship) and walk away that simply seems wrong.

Your ludicrously rules heavy solution barely accomplishes your stated goal here. Wounds are not how you kill characters in this game. The game literally tells you not to do that. Players should only die when its dramatically appropriate, crossing your wound threshold just represents extreme consequences. Critical injuries are how you represent actual threat to players (which are much lighter to applies rules-wise, and more dramatic at the table).

The 10 minutes you spend building the dice pool for these checks, and then running through 6 (for 5 players) checks and spending the results on each others checks, as opposed to say "Everyone is going to take a +20/30/40 Critical Hit on landing. You may make a Resiliance Check to reduce the injury. Difficulty 3/4/5 depending on crash circumstances, with Success reducing the Crit.

You are arguing with the wind here, you want people to say "Oh man these are really good rules, I am glad you found a way to make crashing take 4 times as long to work out, because I sure do love Crunch" but nobody will. This is a movie simulator system. It says so in the books many, many times. It's supposed to be fun and easily adaptable to the narrative. If you want to calculate the effect speed and gravity have on fall damage you should be playing something else. Perhaps GURPs or Traveller.

1 hour ago, Spartancfos said:

Your ludicrously rules heavy solution barely accomplishes your stated goal here. Wounds are not how you kill characters in this game. The game literally tells you not to do that. Players should only die when its dramatically appropriate, crossing your wound threshold just represents extreme consequences. Critical injuries are how you represent actual threat to players (which are much lighter to applies rules-wise, and more dramatic at the table).

The 10 minutes you spend building the dice pool for these checks, and then running through 6 (for 5 players) checks and spending the results on each others checks, as opposed to say "Everyone is going to take a +20/30/40 Critical Hit on landing. You may make a Resiliance Check to reduce the injury. Difficulty 3/4/5 depending on crash circumstances, with Success reducing the Crit.

You are arguing with the wind here, you want people to say "Oh man these are really good rules, I am glad you found a way to make crashing take 4 times as long to work out, because I sure do love Crunch" but nobody will. This is a movie simulator system. It says so in the books many, many times. It's supposed to be fun and easily adaptable to the narrative. If you want to calculate the effect speed and gravity have on fall damage you should be playing something else. Perhaps GURPs or Traveller.

Well said

On 8/20/2019 at 4:01 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

My revised proposal:

• Use the rules for falling, but with the following table: 1st slot is speeds 1 and 2, 2nd slot is speeds 3 and 4, 3rd slot is speed 5+. I dropped the 4th slot on purpose.
• The pilot makes a check to slow the fall: each Success reduces wounds for all secured characters by 1 and each Advantage reduces Strain by 1. A Triumph reduces the slot by 1, and 2 Triumph mean the pilot executes a brilliant crash landing and no secured characters take damage. Failure, however, results in a Critical Injury for all characters aboard.
• If a PC is not secured, they must make an Average Athletics/Coordination check to reduce damage: each Success reduces Wounds by 1 and each Advantage reduces Strain by 1. Soak still applies to both, and Failure results in a Critical Injury.
• If a PC is secured, they must make an Average Resilience check (unless the pilot rolls 2 Triumphs): each Success reduces Wounds by 1 and each Advantage reduces Strain by 1. Soak still applies to both, and Failure results in a Critical Injury. They reduce any crit result by 20, and they reduce Strain and Wounds by Success and Advantage from the pilot.
• For both secured and unsecured characters, a Triumph still reduces the slot by one (i.e. Speed 3 [2nd slot] to Speed 1/2 [1st slot]) just like the rules for falling.
• When it hits the ground, the vehicle suffers a Major Collision.
• Optional: Reduce any Critical Injury result by 5xDefense. If the vehicle is disable through exceeding its HTT or SST this is not an option, as its shields are down.

Justifications and changes:

• Same as in the first proposal, but I decided that even though I had simply missed the 4th slot somehow in the first proposal, it would be prudent to go ahead and drop the 4th slot for a couple of reasons: the 4th provides a +75 to the crit result, which has an approximately 25% chance of killing a character who is not critically injured, and since it probably wasn't the character's fault that he is in this situation, I thought that was unfair.
• Same difficulty as falling. I added the expenditure of 2 Triumphs. Added "Failure results in a Critical Injury for all characters aboard" this would represent the pilot loses control or panicking.
• Same as the RAW for falling, same as the original proposal. Added "Failure results in a Critical injury."
• Changed entirely. Reasoning is fairly self-explanatory, they have an advantage over players who aren't strapped in so they basically reduce double and get a crit reduction. Failure results in a Critical Injury because they weren't resilient enough to withstand the shaking bumping etc. and since it is reduced by 20, there is a 60% chance that he won't get anything above easy, and a 65% chance that he won't get anything lasting.
• Same. Just like the RAW for falling, so what's to explain?
• This is exactly like the RAW.
• Seems fairly straight forward, and if the power is down, the shields aren't powered so no defense. 5xDefense, because it is a Major Collision.
• I removed the added speed for falling above medium range, because although I stand by my reasoning for why it makes sense, I no longer think it is necessary to include another step. It doesn't really add anything anyway.
• I removed the additional +10 per speed to the crit for the crashing vehicle, because, like @Ghostofman said, it is too likely to outright kill the PCs as a result of a "Vaporized" result.
• I removed the part about 3 Advantage indicating the pilot reducing the speed by one, as @c__beck suggested.

Working with NPCs and Minions:

• If counted individually, all minions would die from any fall. Count them in groups of 4, (optional: each group makes a check) and resolve damage like you would for an attack, also removing one minion per group if they get a crit.
  Demonstration: Speed 1, so it's the 1st slot which does 10 damage and 10 strain. Let's say the pilot gets a Failure. The minions have a cumulative WT of 15 and a Soak of 5, so 10 damage kills one of them, and the crit kills one more, leaving 2 alive.

I simplified your work P-47. I don't like the way these two are tag teaming you and I thought I would work with you and not against you. I propose using the ideas streamlining it a bit for ease of play.

Falling/Collisions

Speed 1-2/Short: Dmg 10/Strain 10

Speed 3-4/Medium: Dmg 30/Strain 20

Speed 5-6/Long: All WP (Incapcitated)/Strain 30/Critical Injury +50

Extreme: All WP Incapcitated/Strain 40/Critical Injury +75

Collisions

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1.

2. Reduce Damage- Resilience Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

3. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision : After subtracting any ship defense x10. Roll a Starship Critical. If Damage goes through crew and passengers suffer Critical Injury.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

If the Pilot would have time to Land the Ship before impact, they can make a Pilot ship check Simple-, unless circumstance dictate a more difficult landing. Each success reduces 1 Wound/Pilot Rank and each Advantage 1 Strain/Pilot Rank to self and all passengers. Triumph reduces the Range Category before modifiers.

9 minutes ago, Sith Interceptor said:

I simplified your work P-47. I don't like the way these two are tag teaming you and I thought I would work with you and not against you. I propose using the ideas you have but just streamlining it a bit for ease of play.

Falling/Collisions

Speed 1-2/Short: Dmg 10/Strain 10

Speed 3-4/Medium: Dmg 30/Strain 20

Speed 5-6/Long: All WP (Incapcitated)/Strain 30/Critical Injury +50

Extreme: All WP Incapcitated/Strain 40/Critical Injury +75

Collisions

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1.

2. Reduce Damage- Coordination Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

3. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision : All crew and passengers suffer a crit subtracting any ship defense x10.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5 and roll starship crit.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

If the Pilot would have time to Land the Ship before impact, they can make a Pilot ship check Simple-, each success reduces 1 Wound and each Advantage 1 Strain to self and all passengers. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

Thanks! This is pretty good, you did a good job writing this out.

Point of clarification, there are already Minor/Major Collisions in the RAW, the Minor Collision is crit-Defense*10 to the ship, and Major is crit-Defense*5, and neither inflict a crit on the passengers. Are you suggesting dropping the ship crit for Minor Collision, or was that an oversight?

Your distinction between Major and Minor Collisions is right on the money, I like it.

The only thing I think I would add to this is that strapped in passengers use Resilience instead of Coordination. Was there a particular reason you removed this, or just to try to streamline it?

I changed the landing to reduce loads more damage to enable a clean crash landing. Also less than idea landing conditions would mean a difficulty other than simple.

Minor Collision works fine by the raw. So yes Ship Critical - Shield Defense x 10.

Yes that an error. Resilience should be used in place of Coordination. Ill fix that.

3 minutes ago, Sith Interceptor said:

I changed the landing to reduce loads more damage to enable a clean crash landing. Also less than idea landing conditions would mean a difficulty other than simple.

Not an oversight but on second thought maybe a Minor Collision with Shields, Ship Critical -50 might be better.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I figured it would be better to stick to RAW for the ship's crit on collisions, but yours works okay. I actually hadn't noticed that it is result*ranks in Piloting (Relevant), that's an interesting idea. I'm not entirely convinced because of how exponentially those numbers could increase, but it makes it far more likely that the characters won't be WTed on the crash by default
On a simple check, a character with 5 ranks would probably average about 5, so 5x5 would be 25 wounds reduced, whereas with Piloting 1 (Ag 3) they'd average about 3.
One thing I like about it is that it values skill more than raw ability, so someone with Ag 1 and Piloting 3 would be more effective than someone with Ag 3 and Piloting 1, which could be considered to represent more experience and knowing what to do rather than just an ability to steer the ship.

4 minutes ago, Sith Interceptor said:

Yes that an error. Resilience should be used in place of Coordination. Ill fix that.

I didn't mean in place of, I meant that unsecured characters would use Coordination, while the ones strapped in would use Resilience.

35 minutes ago, Sith Interceptor said:

3. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision : After subtracting any ship defense x10. Roll a Starship Critical. If Damage goes through crew and passengers suffer Critical Injury.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

To clarify this, if you were to have 3 Defense and roll 28, the passengers don't suffer a crit? What do you mean about "Damage goes through"?

Revised

My intention is that characters who are strapped in automatically Triumph, they reduce the range band automatically. Then everyone gets a Coordinate to reduce damage further. Thus people not strapped in only get the Coordinate check.

Clarify if you have 3 defense then you subtract -30 from the roll, in this case 28 = No Starship Crit and therefore no passenger crits either. EXample had you rolled 58, then a Starship would take a 28% Crit and the Passengers would roll Crits too but also -30 to those rolls.

Falling/Collisions

Speed 1-2/Short: Dmg 10/Strain 10

Speed 3-4/Medium: Dmg 30/Strain 20

Speed 5-6/Long: All WP (Incapcitated)/Strain 30/Critical Injury +50

Extreme: All WP Incapcitated/Strain 40/Critical Injury +75

Collisions

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1. Everyone else gets a Coordinate Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

2. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision:

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1. Everyone else gets a Coordinate Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

2. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision: Roll a Starship Critical and subtract any ship defense x10. If the Ship suffers a Critical. The Crew and passengers also suffer Critical Injury and subtract any ship defense x10.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

Crash Landing

If the Pilot would have time to Land the Ship before impact, they can make a Pilot ship check Simple-, unless circumstance dictate a more difficult landing. Each success reduces 1 Wound/Pilot Rank and each Advantage 1 Strain/Pilot Rank to self and all passengers. Triumph reduces the Range Category before modifiers.

1 minute ago, Sith Interceptor said:

Minor Collision: After subtracting any ship defense x10. Roll a Starship Critical. If Damage goes through crew and passengers suffer Critical Injury.

Looks pretty good, but "If Damage goes through" is confusingly phrased. It would probably be more clear if you were to say "If the crit roll is not reduced to 1*, the crew and passengers suffer a Critical Injury."

*Technically, crits cannot be reduced to 0 unless you have the talent Unstoppable which allows you to do so. If they would be, they are instead reduced to 1.

I revised it to make it clearer above. 01 Critical id have to read it to see what it is but you could go with all taking a 01 Crit or just ignore it.

So for Ship 01 is Mechanical Stress 1 System Strain and for Crew its a Minor Nick 1 strain. So I say just go with the raw here.

See anything else? I think that looks good but may still need adjustments, I think it build on the existing rules from the RAW without adding to much.

18 minutes ago, Sith Interceptor said:

Collisions

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1. Everyone else gets a Coordinate Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

2. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision:

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1. Everyone else gets a Coordinate Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

2. When the ship impacts follow the rules for Collisions.

Minor Collision: Roll a Starship Critical and subtract any ship defense x10. If the Ship suffers a Critical. The Crew and passengers also suffer Critical Injury and subtract any ship defense x10.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

Major Collision: as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

I don't think so rules-wise, but this section got messed up.

Well here it is again then.

Falling/Collisions

Speed 1-2/Short: Dmg 10/Strain 10

Speed 3-4/Medium: Dmg 30/Strain 20

Speed 5-6/Long: All WP (Incapcitated)/Strain 30/Critical Injury +50

Extreme: All WP Incapcitated/Strain 40/Critical Injury +75

Collisions

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1. Everyone else gets a Coordinate Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

2. When the ship impacts follow these rules for Collision

Minor Collision : Roll a Starship Critical and subtract any ship defense x10, with a minimum result of 01. If the Ship suffers a Critical. The Crew and Passengers also suffer Critical Injury and subtract any ship defense x10, With a minimum result of 01.

Major Collision : as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

Crash Landing

If the Pilot would have time to Land the Ship before impact, they can make a Pilot ship check Simple-, unless circumstance dictate a more difficult landing. Each success reduces 1 Wound/Pilot Rank and each Advantage 1 Strain/Pilot Rank to self and all passengers. Triumph reduces the Range Category before modifiers.

1 minute ago, Sith Interceptor said:

Well here it is again then.

Falling/Collisions

Speed 1-2/Short: Dmg 10/Strain 10

Speed 3-4/Medium: Dmg 30/Strain 20

Speed 5-6/Long: All WP (Incapcitated)/Strain 30/Critical Injury +50

Extreme: All WP Incapcitated/Strain 40/Critical Injury +75

Collisions

1. Characters that are strapped in reduce Range category by 1. Everyone else gets a Coordinate Check. Avg. Difficulty each success reduces 1 Wound and each Advantage 1 Strain. Triumph reduces the Range Category.

2. When the ship impacts follow these rules for Collision

Minor Collision : Roll a Starship Critical and subtract any ship defense x10, with a minimum result of 01. If the Ship suffers a Critical. The Crew and Passengers also suffer Critical Injury and subtract any ship defense x10, With a minimum result of 01.

Major Collision : as above except ship defense x5.

A Major Collision is a Collision with no active Ship Shields or a Head on Collision with a solid object at Speed 5-6.

Crash Landing

If the Pilot would have time to Land the Ship before impact, they can make a Pilot ship check Simple-, unless circumstance dictate a more difficult landing. Each success reduces 1 Wound/Pilot Rank and each Advantage 1 Strain/Pilot Rank to self and all passengers. Triumph reduces the Range Category before modifiers.

Looks good! Thanks!

It was fun to work this out congenially for once!
It's always nice to be able to work along with someone instead of against them for a change.

I see you sharing all the time so Ya im glad to help my friend and ill think ill use this too. It may need adjustment downwards still during playtesting as lots of players like to fly very fast.