21 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:The rotate isn't, though. If you want the tractor token, your arc has to rotate, and it has to go to a different position.
But then, why would you want to tractor yourself if you neither need to reposition nor rotate your arc? For Ensnare shenanigans, I guess?
3 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:But then, why would you want to tractor yourself if you neither need to reposition nor rotate your arc? For Ensnare shenanigans, I guess?
Yes. Sun Fac in particular will always want Ensnare, and always want to be throwing a tractor token to something so he can get his bonus die if the ship is small base.
Not to mention it's -1 die regardless.
19 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:But then, why would you want to tractor yourself if you neither need to reposition nor rotate your arc? For Ensnare shenanigans, I guess?
Because you might want to reposition but not rotate your arc (let's say that your arc is pointed at a target and you'd like to boost into range 1 for a bonus die, which a lot of 'normal' fighters with a linked boost would normally do)
A key weakness is that the Nantex can't do that because if you use pinpoint tractor array you have to slew your arc to a different facing.
Edited by Magnus Grendel1 hour ago, Ryfterek said:But then, why would you want to tractor yourself if you neither need to reposition nor rotate your arc? For Ensnare shenanigans, I guess?
Gravitic Deflection also makes you want to keep the token on your ship
29 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:Gravitic Deflection also makes you want to keep the token on your ship
If we're talking about a single Nantex, the additional green die is straight out better than a single re roll.
It may come in handy with multiple Deflecting Nantexs, yup.
3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:* Since the Protectorate Fang came out, no subsequent expansion has had a card in it the ship can't normally equip, and the Nantex includes two modification upgrades. I think that's fairly good evidence the standard chassis has a modification slot, in which case Sun Fac and Cherek can take Afterburners on top - since tractor repositions are not an action, you can speed 3 move, afterburners, pinpoint tractor array, ensnare for triple repositioning. Which is especially valuable since afterburners are a 'proper' boost and allow you to turn slightly and line up your ensnaring arc, which tractor repositioning doesn't.
While I agree that the Nantex almost surely has a Modification Slot, the TIE/v1 is also being re-released in Wave 6 with Afterburners, despite:
1. The v1 not currently being able to equip modifications.
2. The v1 able to equip missiles and force talents, while Instinctive Aim is available *only* in the Core Set, and only a single copy.
3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:
- Gravetic Deflection means you're not going to be tractoring opponents, but it basically removes the downside of tractoring yourself - if you have one or better yet two tractored ships in arc (including yourself) your defence is just as good as if you had your extra green die. For that matter, a 'designated redshirt' can tractor themselves and remain at range 3 whilst everyone else closes to close-in, getting agility 3 and a rero ll.
Gravetic Deflection doesn't care which side has a Tractor Beam. If anyone on either side is in the firing arc of the attacker and has a Tractor Beam token on it....you get a re-roll. So, let's say that Sun Fac pushes his TB token onto the first of a number of....Tie Fighters....Each shot that includes the lead Tie in their arc gives Sun Fac a re-roll.
Let's say that Sun Fac is out there with Gravitic Deflections and Ensnare, but also has a couple of friends behind him who did TB themselves. Sun might be at full 3 Green Dice and getting 2-3 re-rolls without having a single TB token on himself.
1 hour ago, Ryfterek said:But then, why would you want to tractor yourself if you neither need to reposition nor rotate your arc? For Ensnare shenanigans, I guess?
Yes, you normally don't want to give yourself a Tractor Beam token. You do get a straight Boost or BR with it, though. It will help you get out of arcs or get someone in your bullseye. Also, if someone has Gravitic Deflections it can give them re-rolls. As I stated above, it can allow multiple ships to get re-rolls if you have them together. So, it is odd....and can hurt, but it can also help.
===
Here's a question, though. Can you do the Rotate Turret action without actually rotating your turret? So, if you turret is where you want it to be, but you want to get a TB token to push around? Can you>?
3 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:If we're talking about a single Nantex, the additional green die is straight out better than a single re roll.
It may come in handy with multiple Deflecting Nantexs, yup.
Sure, it's worse to be Tractored than not, but Gravitic Deflection removes like 90% of the penalty.
42 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:Gravitic Deflection also makes you want to keep the token on your ship
I don't think that's the right way to think about it.
If I'm thinking about a hypothetical talent "Tractor Tokens no longer cause you to roll fewer defense dice," it'd be pretty comparable to Gravitic Deflection in effect. I think this is the right frame for considering GravD. It isn't about keeping a Tractor Token to gain a benefit, but eliminating most of the drawbacks of having one. Most of the time, that's how it'll function.
1 minute ago, heychadwick said:Here's a question, though. Can you do the Rotate Turret action without actually rotating your turret? So, if you turret is where you want it to be, but you want to get a TB token to push around? Can you>?
No, you may not. The rules reference specifies you rotate the turret arc indicator to any other arc.
4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Here's a question, though. Can you do the Rotate Turret action without actually rotating your turret? So, if you turret is where you want it to be, but you want to get a TB token to push around? Can you>?
No, the rules state, the turret have to point to a different arc it did prior to the rotate action. Even with a bowtie turret, you cannot swing it 180 and claim it is pointing to a different arc, as the turret is seen as a whole and if it was front/back , it is still front/back. So no double tapping with VTG or such out of the same arc with a bowtie.
53 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:If we're talking about a single Nantex, the additional green die is straight out better than a single re roll.
It may come in handy with multiple Deflecting Nantexs, yup.
39 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Sure, it's worse to be Tractored than not, but Gravitic Deflection removes like 90% of the penalty.
I don't think that's the right way to think about it.
If I'm thinking about a hypothetical talent "Tractor Tokens no longer cause you to roll fewer defense dice," it'd be pretty comparable to Gravitic Deflection in effect. I think this is the right frame for considering GravD. It isn't about keeping a Tractor Token to gain a benefit, but eliminating most of the drawbacks of having one. Most of the time, that's how it'll function.
Someone did the math 2-3 pages earlier in this thread; 3 green or 2 green + 1 re-roll is basically the same. So, keeping the token on yourself while having Gravitic Deflection isn't that worse at all.
A nifty combo is having Nantexes further back in your line while the real deal (Sun Fac/Chetrek) will try to get at R1 with Ensnare; if this ship has 2 Talent slots, also give them Gravitic Deflection. What really matters is to have the Nantexes further back to stay with the token AND stay inside enemy arcs - Sun Fac/Chetrek will get the benefit of the talent without needing a token on themselves! They'll get their full 3 green AND some re-rolls
17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Anyhow, Gravitic Deflection is pretty decent. Rolling N+1 dice is better than rolling N dice with 1 reroll, but not *that* much better. A 3-green, 4 Hull ship expects to die in 3.699 3-dice focused attacks. A 2-green ship with a reroll and 4 hull expects to die in 3.625 attacks. Without the reroll: 2.991 attacks.
For a single attack:
- 3 focused red vs unfocused 3 green: 1.217 damage
- 3 focused red vs unfocused 2 green+ GravDef: 1.239 damage
- 3 focused red vs focused 3 green: 0.638 damage
- 3 focused red vs focused 2 green+ GravDef: 0.741 damage
Of course you already did the math
17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Anyhow, Gravitic Deflection is pretty decent. Rolling N+1 dice is better than rolling N dice with 1 reroll, but not *that* much better. A 3-green, 4 Hull ship expects to die in 3.699 3-dice focused attacks. A 2-green ship with a reroll and 4 hull expects to die in 3.625 attacks. Without the reroll: 2.991 attacks.
For a single attack:
- 3 focused red vs unfocused 3 green: 1.217 damage
- 3 focused red vs unfocused 2 green+ GravDef: 1.239 damage
- 3 focused red vs focused 3 green: 0.638 damage
- 3 focused red vs focused 2 green+ GravDef: 0.741 damage
Of course you already did the math
17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Anyhow, Gravitic Deflection is pretty decent. Rolling N+1 dice is better than rolling N dice with 1 reroll, but not *that* much better. A 3-green, 4 Hull ship expects to die in 3.699 3-dice focused attacks. A 2-green ship with a reroll and 4 hull expects to die in 3.625 attacks. Without the reroll: 2.991 attacks.
For a single attack:
- 3 focused red vs unfocused 3 green: 1.217 damage
- 3 focused red vs unfocused 2 green+ GravDef: 1.239 damage
- 3 focused red vs focused 3 green: 0.638 damage
- 3 focused red vs focused 2 green+ GravDef: 0.741 damage
Of course you already did the math
11 minutes ago, Ryuneke said:Of course you already did the math
It's just the dice calc. Took like 5 minutes, because Andrew Lauritzen did the real work.
My meta is different than most. I see more ships and generics. So, I see passing the TB token being good for the shots behind that guy. Most tournament lists only have 3 ships, so not sure how often that will happen. It will happen for me, though! I need to adjust my green dice.
52 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:Someone did the math 2-3 pages earlier in this thread; 3 green or 2 green + 1 re-roll is basically the same. So, keeping the token on yourself while having Gravitic Deflection isn't that worse at all.
Then again, three evades are never going to happen on two dice with a re roll. IMHO, an average game of X-wing is way too short for the proper statistic average to show. An ace is likely to defend only three or four times a game. The extreme result swings will show up. I've seen many matches saved by a wild triple evade roll when it was the defender's only way to survive another turn.
56 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:if this ship has 2 Talent slots
To be sure, a bunch of ships with GravDef and Ensnare would be busted good. Most ships could do some broken stuff, if they had two talent slots, but...
Two talents is incredibly unlikely in general, but also look at this wording: "An ace like Sun Fac, for example, prefers to Ensnare their targets for an offensive advantage." Following shortly after the line describing GravDef, that reads to me like it's an either-or. There's no reason at all to suspect two talent slots on the Nantex.
With the assumption of one talent, I just don't see Ensnare and Gravitic Deflection working well together in practice. GD on Sun Fac would be tankier Sun Fac, but also one who strongly relies on someone else having Ensare. Without a buddy Ensnaring stuff, Sun Fac shoots marshmellow, and is probably no longer worth their points. Meanwhile, if Ensnare is on Sun Fac, and someone else is GravDef, folks will just shoot Sun Fac, rendering GravDef useless.
There's also the real factor that, if you Ensare an Fenn Rau or whatever, your GravDef ships won't get a bonus against them, since Fenn isn't in his own firing arc. I'll say again: the right way to think about GravDef is almost surely that it doesn't grant a bonus for tractor tokens, but mitigates the downside of them.
56 minutes ago, Vector Strike said:Someone did the math 2-3 pages earlier in this thread
5 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:Then again, three evades are never going to happen on two dice with a re roll. IMHO, an average game of X-wing is way too short for the proper statistic average to show. An ace is likely to defend only three or four times a game. The extreme result swings will show up. I've seen many matches saved by a wild triple evade roll when it was the defender's only way to survive another turn.
its basically intuitive
one or two hits coming in:
roll 3 dice, only keep the best two - which is what a reroll amounts to if you're not doing weird stuff like rerolling eyes despite having a focus - is strictly identical to just rolling 3 dice straight
three or more hits coming in (or weird stuff like juke is involved):
roll 3 dice, only keep the best two, sometimes means the worst dice was still a focus/evade that would've been useful
I doubt GD will see much play unless it's super cheap
Ensnare just holds far too much utility since it doesn't specify enemy ships and is about the only way the Nantex can do any work with its piddly mobile arc.
Just now, ficklegreendice said:I doubt GD will see much play unless it's super cheap
Ensnare just holds far too much utility since it doesn't specify enemy ships and is about the only way the Nantex can do any work with its piddly mobile arc.
I mostly agree.
On someone high-initiative, Ensnare looks a lot more potent, and maybe GravDef gets picked as a budget option sometimes.
However, someone lower initiative might want to go with GravDef. Ensnare could easily be useless, if the enemy moves out of the rather limited area set up by range 0-1 mobile arc...
1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:I mostly agree.
On someone high-initiative, Ensnare looks a lot more potent, and maybe GravDef gets picked as a budget option sometimes.
However, someone lower initiative might want to go with GravDef. Ensnare could easily be useless, if the enemy moves out of the rather limited area set up by range 0-1 mobile arc...
Ensnare still works on a block though. As a blocker, if a generic + Ensnare is cheap enough, it's one if the best blockers out there. You, deny their action, reduce their AGL and get to throw them wherever you want potentially even allowing your blocker to shoot. Obviously cost is massive deciding factor, but it could be pretty crazy.
17 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:I doubt GD will see much play unless it's super cheap
Ensnare just holds far too much utility since it doesn't specify enemy ships and is about the only way the Nantex can do any work with its piddly mobile arc.
Ensnare is not just stapled but sent to space and cold welded onto the talent slot unless it's like Delta 7B prices - it completely transforms the ship, especially at high initiative. But in that scenario, Gravy Deflector can be cheapish while Ensnare is 7B-ish and then its a meaningful choice.
2 minutes ago, svelok said:Ensnare is not just stapled but sent to space and cold welded onto the talent slot unless it's like Delta 7B prices - it completely transforms the ship, especially at high initiative. But in that scenario, Gravy Deflector can be cheapish while Ensnare is 7B-ish and then its a meaningful choice.
2 of the pilots basically need Ensnare or they have no pilot ability (outside of taking Tractors elsewhere in your list). Deflection is weird, I guess it lets you repo without getting boned by the -1 AGL, which might make it good if you want to use them as cheap flankers (I assume Deflection is in the 1-3pt category because outside of oddball cases, it's just mitigating the die you lost for being tractored). I'll be surprised if Ensnare isn't in the 15-20pt range (at a minimum).
2 hours ago, heychadwick said:Here's a question, though. Can you do the Rotate Turret action without actually rotating your turret? So, if you turret is where you want it to be, but you want to get a TB token to push around? Can you>?
Something else I found out today, is that for bow tie turrets, they have to move to the arc previously not covered. When would this come up? Paige Tico & vet Turret Gunner Star Fortresses.... Pew pewing out the same arc multiple times may have been used against me a few times....
Now I know at least.