The base force power Move allows you to move silhouette 0....whats to stop a player pulling a sabre from a siths hands? How would you rule this?
Move
The control upgrade that says, " The user gains the ability to pull objects off secure mountings or from an opponent's grasp. "
If you could do that anyway, the upgrade would be useless.
@c__beck is correct here. In order to pull an object from another person's hand, you need the Control upgrade that allows that. The base power only allows the moving of, loose objects, not secured ones.
2 hours ago, c__beck said:The control upgrade that says, " The user gains the ability to pull objects off secure mountings or from an opponent's grasp. "
If you could do that anyway, the upgrade would be useless.
I would still make this an opposed check, vs Discipline (countering with the Force), Athletics, Coordination, or even Vigilance.
Maybe not for minions, but I can see what you did there, @whafrog . FaD page 283 also mentions this specifically, in the top bar about Resisting Force Power checks.
@Xcapobl not sure, depends how you want to target minions. If a single target is a minion group, then I'd let them oppose it, otherwise you have Force-newbs running around pulling blaster rifles out of the hands of 4 or 5 stormtroopers at a time. It's barely a thing in the media, even Kanan had trouble with only a couple at a time. I think it should be generally hard to do against anybody.
But chalk this up to another reason Move is the single worst mechanical implementation in an otherwise stellar game...
I would say you can't target minions, @whafrog .
The basic power of Move (referencing to FaD page 298 now) specifically targets "one object " of Silhouette 0. Not a creature, not a minion, not a group to be seen as a single entity. The book description of the Move Power (not the green flow chart) specifically mentions the basic power may not be activated multiple times. So true Force-noobs without Magnitude upgrades, and the Control upgrade that allows pulling stuff from secure mountings or opponent's grips @c__beck mentioned earlier, would still not pull even one blaster rifle from a single Stormtrooper within that minion group. Even with the aforementioned Control upgrade, it would still be only one object, so only one blaster rifle from a single minion level Stormtrooper. At least until a Magnitude comes into play for this power as well, requiring at least two Force points, one to activate the power itself, one to activate Magnitude.
When somebody does have the Control upgrade, allowing them to use their action for a Force Power check to disarm a single minion doesn't feel like such an overpowered thing to do anyways. They spent 30 XP to get through the Move Force power tree to be able to do so. Another 5 on a Magnitude upgrade to pull more than one object away from their opponents. And then, when a Rival or Nemesis level opponent gets to resist, For free, no XP expenditure, on account of just being Rival or Nemesis level (or another Player Character).
" But how did Obi-Wan and Qui Gonn Jinn move about all those battledroids which seemed like minions to me? "
As far as the rules of this game are concerned, not through the Move Power. Look at the Bind Force power (FaD page 286). It targets "one target" and not simply "one object". It has a Control upgrade to move that target towards, or away, from you. For the right type of Force points spent, you damage or even critically injure the target(s), thus easily taking out those battledroid minions. It can be expanded upon to stagger or disorient the targets (narratively representing them falling over and getting up again... narratively... if they didn't 'die' through damage or crits).
And yes, I am well aware of clever players, who then justify to use the Force power Move to 'target' the opponent's belt or something similar (any Silhouette 0 object, basically, that the target cannot simply let go of) and fling that into the wall behind the poor NPC. Been there, punished that. 😁 😉
Gosh the move power is just a disaster. The whole autofire rules make it such a pain if you want to move more than one object at a time.
On 8/13/2019 at 2:23 AM, Xcapobl said:" But how did Obi-Wan and Qui Gonn Jinn move about all those battledroids which seemed like minions to me? "
As far as the rules of this game are concerned, not through the Move Power. Look at the Bind Force power (FaD page 286). It targets "one target" and not simply "one object"
For me a droid is an object so ... 😛
1 hour ago, Rosco74 said:For me a droid is an object so ... 😛
I think the point is that one target could be an entire minion group as opposed to one object which would just be one object. If replicating what Obi-Wan did as Bind though, it means he used the Dark Side points and that's a whole separate discussion.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the specific wording of object vs target, especially since Move can move characters and creatures, not just objects.
I am totally for the idea of Move working on a minion group as if it were one target/object but only with the idea that it's set at silhouette 2. This allows for moving multiple things without going through the whole "use auto-fire rules and also spend additional force points because of the magnitude upgrade" but what I am for is not really what the rules spell out (GMing this system for 4 years, I've developed several houserules to kind of prop up or alter the parts of the system that don't work so well).
4 hours ago, Rosco74 said:For me a droid is an object so ... 😛
And that depends on personal interpretation, in my opinion. Which is why I would agree with @whafrog again, and @GroggyGolem , about Move not being stellar in its wording. I would never call a character (being a minion, rival, nemesis or player character) an object (something lacking true sentience or true AI like most droids have, and yes, even B1 battle droids in the series seem to have a rudimentary form of intellect and a sense of self-preservation, suppressed by a droid control ship). All the different RAW prints, errata or clarifications (especially in podcasts that some people find annoying to listen to while they seem to contain vital information for the flow of many games) and all the house rules muddy the situation even further. Having a power target one object, and then adding characters to that definition of objects in supplemental rules source X...
3 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:I think the point is that one target could be an entire minion group as opposed to one object which would just be one object. If replicating what Obi-Wan did as Bind though, it means he used the Dark Side points and that's a whole separate discussion.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the specific wording of object vs target, especially since Move can move characters and creatures, not just objects.
I am totally for the idea of Move working on a minion group as if it were one target/object but only with the idea that it's set at silhouette 2. This allows for moving multiple things without going through the whole "use auto-fire rules and also spend additional force points because of the magnitude upgrade" but what I am for is not really what the rules spell out (GMing this system for 4 years, I've developed several houserules to kind of prop up or alter the parts of the system that don't work so well).
Several points to respond to here.
Yes. A minion group could be a target. If I have a character that makes one combat check against a minion group, and I deal enough damage, multiple minions from that group drop. Some powers, talents and rules use different wording, and one mentions " one object ", another targets " a target ", the next affects " a character " specifically. All different terms with different meanings, and I do still believe the different wording is fully intentional. As is wording like " one or more... " as opposed to " one... ". This opens up a lot of debate. If you see a droid as an object, could you then target an entire minion group when you may target " one " object? Is a group one object? Or is one minion group, for example, five B1 battle droids with five battle droid blaster rifles, and therefor a total of ten objects? Clear and consistent wording of rules text might have prevented many play groups to have had to make up things as they go.
Obi-Wan, Bind, Dark Side Points. Yes. Why not? He had Qui-Gon as his mentor and example, and he cheated at Chance Cubes to get the boy and not his mother... In game terms, using a Dark Side Point to get the upper hand against a numerically superior foe might not be such a bad idea, it shows that a good character under stress might have to make bad choices, and one Dark Side Force Pip does not a Fallen Jedi make.
Getting too hung up on wording is never good, but a little thought on speficically defined parts of the text might still be necessary. Talents and Force Powers especially are notorious for this. The talent tree and Force Power flow charts sometimes omit info that must be gleaned from the full text on ethe same page, or in a totally different chapter. Take Misdirect, for example. The green fllow chart mentions that " a target at up to short range... " will be unable to perceive something. I have had a simple misinterpretation when a player wanted to use Misdirect on a camera system. It is a target and it mentions just that on the flow chart. But then I pointed the player to the full text, which mentions a " living target ", so technically (even if they weren't already immune for reasons) a droid couldn't be affected by Misdirect. Surprise, surprise. So aside from droids being immune to certain Force Powers just for being droids, they, and any other surveillance equipment, can't be fooled.
Move and the mionion group as a single target. Sure, I could dig that, as you also target a minion group with a single combat check, and you can drop two, three, or even more if the total damage allows. But why Silhouette 2? Just so you have something affecting Move, and not the difficulty of combat checks? Why not Silhouette 3 if the group consists of 5 or more minions? Because that would affect combat check difficulties? What would I roll if I target a Silhouette 2 minion group, yet decide to (or only have enough Force Pips to) only affect one Silhouette 1 member? What if it is a minion swarm of 10 or more Silhouette 0 creatures? Would you target this as Silhouette 0 (for its component creatures), Silhouette 2 (for your idea of groups being larger than 1 member), Silhouette 10 perhaps for ten members, or Silhouette 5 for ten members, each being rather small? While I understand the drive to make house rules, and I know I made them for other systems in the past as well, they do remain just a highly individual patch up for errors or inconsistencies or simply less movable parts of the rules.
Start opinion .
Interestingly, and I must stress this to be an opinion here, I don't think Move as a power needs so many house rules. It targets one object. Not one character (including droids for being a character). Not one group of characters. It affects Silhouette 0. Both specifics about number and size defined can be altered by adding Magnitude and Strength upgrades. Everything else added to the RAW print in the core books, including allowing it to target characters and creatures in some form, only complicates matters further, and is itself open to interpretation and individual addition through house rules (often against abuse).
I realise there are things like the sidebar on FaD page 287 about Force Powers and Narrative, where a GM might allow a character to use Move or Bind to stop friends from falling. But such permissions would have had to be in the relevant descriptions in my opinion. The free choice means one GM will allow it, and another one won't. Bind " restrains an enemy " and Move affects " one object ". Both are short and clearly defined. A sidebar with a special permission, depending on free choice to use it or not , leaves a lot of room to wriggle. And a can of worms wriggles. 🤣
End opinion .
1 hour ago, Xcapobl said: If you see a droid as an object, could you then tar g et a n entire minion group when you may target " one " object? Is a group one object?
Well, can you target an entire minion group when using a blaster? Yes, that's explicitly what the minion group rules do: make several dudes share a wound pool, share an initiative slot and get targeted together as one target.
That's how I can see ruling a minion group as an individual target could work, but as I said, that's really going beyond the written rules and is subject to individual GM taste.
16 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:That's how I can see ruling a minion group as an individual target could work, but as I said, that's really going beyond the written rules and is subject to individual GM taste.
To which we both seem to agree. 😂
3 hours ago, Xcapobl said:Interestingly, and I must stress this to be an opinion here, I don't think Move as a power needs so many house rules.
It does, you pretty much have to make it up on the fly in every situation, unless you stay completely within the bounds of the rules, in which case, it doesn't behave at all like what you see in the media. It's completely flavourless...we wanted hot chocolate, and ended up with hot chalkolate...
My only solution was to rewrite it completely. Works a lot more like the media in my version, at least in my experience, and handles everything from younglings building their lightsabers by keeping tiny multiple items suspended at a time, to Mace's crazy Force blast that laid waste to a hangar full of battle droids and droidekas. Current Move doesn't do either of those things.
But a minion group is not an object even if it is a target. Move long text use the word object not target. For me it means, by RAW, you can't use Move Force Power on living / sentient beings, and that include any minion groups, but you can use Move Force Power only on inanimate objects.
Imo, for all Force Powers we must stick to the wording in the long description of each FP. That's the safest way to limit abusing Force Powers to not transform them in an all powerful magic that can do everything, every time, everywhere.
14 minutes ago, WolfRider said:Move long text use the word object not target.
There are countless threads in this forum on this specific semantic debate, and no agreement. I'm not betting on any now...
33 minutes ago, WolfRider said:For me it means, by RAW, you can't use Move Force Power on living / sentient beings, and that include any minion groups, but you can use Move Force Power only on inanimate objects.
Opposed to what @whafrog is saying, I will agree fully here... that the long text uses the word "object" and not "object or creature".
And the problem here is, I'm affraid, the FaD Core Book itself. Page 287, the brown sidebar on Force Powers and Narrative. It specifically mentions Move or Bind to be used on another character to prevent that from falling off a balcony, or at least prevent the crash down below. Bind, or Move , on a colleague (assuming living, sentient being here). And that in turn led to many debates, and maybe even a clarification in a podcast that not everybody listens to.
Well there's also the FAQ thread we have here on the official forums, and Move is stated to work for Force Push, Pull, etc as said by the game developers for anyone who needed a more explicit answer by an authority on how the game works.
Sam mentioned in this answer that a single stormtrooper could be targeted with Move without the upgrades. So it seems minion/minion groups can be seen as objects when dealing with the description of Move Force power.
QuoteIf you’re trying to throw three stormtroopers around with Move, it would make a lot of sense that you’d need a Magnitude upgrade (especially since you could forgo the magnitude upgrade and still throw one stormtrooper around, potentially removing them from the minion group if you could throw them far/hard enough).
This one covers the argument between Move and Bind to move people/droids)
2 hours ago, Varlie said:Sam mentioned in this answer that a single stormtrooper could be targeted with Move without the upgrades. So it seems minion/minion groups can be seen as objects when dealing with the description of Move Force power.
This one covers the argument between Move and Bind to move people/droids)
To add to @Varlie 's post, there is also this response:
Just increase silhouette for a big minion group, like the squad rules do, even several upgrades if the minion group is starting to be huge
If only the authors have used the correct words for the Move Force Power if they meant it to be used on object and sentient / living beings, there'll be no need to ask in the forum. Then the word object is used in all description of the Move Power, if it isn't the right word, why wasn't it corrected in AOR and F&D ?
51 minutes ago, WolfRider said:If only the authors have used the correct words for the Move Force Power if they meant it to be used on object and sentient / living beings, there'll be no need to ask in the forum. Then the word object is used in all description of the Move Power, if it isn't the right word, why wasn't it corrected in AOR and F&D ?
Because the writers likely figured people were smart enough to not take the word "object" to literally mean "an inanimate thing that can't move or act under it's own influence" and that it should instead mean "thing that is targeted by move, be it living, mobile, or otherwise."
I've met and conversed at length with a few of those writers either at GenCon or GamerNationCon, and they're all very bright and creative people. And sadly, it's often a trend of bright and creative people to overlook that more pedestrian brains might have too narrow a view to grasp what it is they as the creators are looking to convey. Plus, RPGs in general tend to draw in folks that are above the average intelligence level, so they likely figured that between not being overly pedantic about the usage of the word "object" and thus taking it's usage too literally along with the films themselves showing the Force being used to move/hurl not only inanimate things but also droids and especially living people, it'd be pretty clear that Move was meant to be able to be used to replicate things like the Force thrust/push/slam that we see performed in various media.
It's not much different than the inanity of a few years back where a small contingent of folks were hung up on the impression that the Pierce quality allowed the attacker to automatically inflict wounds equal to the weapon's Pierce rating on a successful hit vs. the actual intent of Pierce simply reducing the target's Soak Value for that attack.
@Donovan Morningfire, English is a foreign language for me, I'm French. SO I prefer to take what I read in english literally. But my wife is English (even if she says British 😉 ) and she agree with you on that subject.
My main problem with using Move Force Power on sentient beings is that means using it on minion groups is allowed too. Then if a character wants to remove all the blasters in the hand of the guys in the minion group and move them away, he / she'll need many (strength or magnitude or both) upgrades. But if that character wants to move the minion groups away, he / she'll need just the upgrade to move silhouette 1 target. Perhaps another one if the GM rules a minion group counts as one silhouette more than the base silhouette of its member.
I find it illogical and not consistent.
5 hours ago, WolfRider said:I find it illogical and not consistent.
That's just the squad rules. Even 2 peoples together are silhouette 2 according those squad rules. Why a minion group of 6 stormtroopers would be silhouette 1 just because there is no Sergeant to squad them ?
Et je suis français aussi je comprends pourtant pas les règles comme toi
