Hello! I'm bored on a Sunday morning and was just talking about this with someone so I thought I'd bring it up.

Dedicated should be a 0 point upgrade.

0 point upgrades are normally not a great idea, because they're always auto-include if you have the slot. So, they have to be either truly near-useless (like Jamming Beam) or already priced into the ship chassis (configs). Dedicated is a slightly different case.

My thinking is that, because Dedicated can be equipped by such a limited roster of pilots (only two at the moment, presumably a third when the Y-wing drops), you're still having to pay to upgrade from a generic init 1/2 pilot to an init 3 pilot with a talent slot. Generally speaking, across the entire game, the generics with talent slots are probably among the least-used pilots in X-wing. I3 Torrents and ARCs are almost never seen on the table. Since you have to pay just to get access to the talent slot, even a 0 point Dedicated would never truly be free of cost.

Next, there are tons of hoops to jump through to make Dedicated work. A fairly specific relative position to your teammates must be maintained in order to protect them. You cannot use Dedicated on the cheapest filler ships--only limited pilots and other Dedicated clones can make use of it, and those points add up fast. You pay a price in-game for the benefit of using Dedicated, in the name of a strain token. And lastly, and perhaps more importantly, Dedicated's benefit is just not that good. Even if the ship in question has a way to convert the eyeball, there's still a 3/8 chance that you jumped through all those hoops for nothing.

I suspect that, if Dedicated were dropped to 0 points tomorrow, you'd see a few people trying it out, but mostly they would stick to their generics. Even at 0, the cost for bringing Dedicated might still be too high for the return. With all the restrictions and limitations already in place, and the benefit gained being unreliable, I think Dedicated should be a free upgrade.

I'd probably agree. I can't see any chance that there will be generics for whom any EPT would be stupidly OP in Republic (especially given the acrobatics to avoid the N1 having an elite generic) at which point the only thing you're ever paying for an elite generic for is Dedicated, so 0 points would be appropriate.

I disagree.

On the other hand, I am curious why i3 clones pay an extra tax. Hyenas do, too. What does it mean

51 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd probably agree. I can't see any chance that there will be generics for whom any EPT would be stupidly OP in Republic (especially given the acrobatics to avoid the N1 having an elite generic) at which point the only thing you're ever paying for an elite generic for is Dedicated, so 0 points would be appropriate.

You're either paying for Dedicated, or for a better EPT, of which there are most of them.

Reduction of cost should be on overcosted i3s; not dedicated

31 minutes ago, Maui. said:

You're either paying for Dedicated, or for a better EPT, of which there are most of them.

If you want a better ept you're almost certainly better with a unique pilot tho.

Ruthless should be a 0pt Upgrade.

I3 pilots pay too much for the talent slot.

Dedicated is just right where it’s at.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Reduction of cost should be on overcosted i3s; not dedicated

14 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Ruthless should be a 0pt Upgrade.

I3 pilots pay too much for the talent slot.

Dedicated is just right where it’s at.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

I disagree.

On the other hand, I am curious why i3 clones pay an extra tax. Hyenas do, too. What does it mean

I agree with all of you that the i3 talent slot tax is weird, but it's a separate issue. In a perfect world, all the talented generics would be a little cheaper, but they're not.

So let's put that aside for the moment and assume, for the sake of argument, that the inexplicable i3 tax doesn't go away. Do you still think Dedicated seems fairly priced at 1 point?

Or, put another way: imagine that tomorrow, Dedicated gets reduced to 0 points, with no other price changes in X-wing. Do you think Dedicated starts seeing a lot of play? Or will people still prefer to bring the cheap guys?

Dedicated is fair at 1, sure

Remember, 0 points is that scum astromech that lets you shoot your own dudes. THAT'S our standard!

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Reduction of cost should be on overcosted i3s; not dedicated

They know something we don't know....

"How many dedicated clones does it take to screw-in a ligh- .... Uh, to break Xwing?"

39 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Dedicated is fair at 1, sure

Remember, 0 points is that scum astromech that lets you shoot your own dudes. THAT'S our standard!

And jamming beam....

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Ruthless should be a 0pt Upgrade.

I3 pilots pay too much for the talent slot.

Dedicated is just right where it’s at.

Ruthless is sneaky cheating....

I can shove 6 extra overkill damage on my dead TIE to give my other TIEs a bunch of free mods until the dead guy... Who's already dead... Is removed from the table.

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

Do you still think Dedicated seems fairly priced at 1 point?

I think Dedicated is better than Marksmanship but worse than Crack Shot, so sure.

21 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

They know something we don't know....

"How many dedicated clones does it take to screw-in a ligh- .... Uh, to break Xwing?"

You can already fit 5 alongside Sinker, and people choose 4 golds to make the fifth one an ARC instead.

20 minutes ago, Maui. said:

You can already fit 5 alongside Sinker, and people choose 4 golds to make the fifth one an ARC instead.

.. maybe they're doing it wrong?

20 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

.. maybe they're doing it wrong?

I don't think so. The strength of a swarm is to maintain the swarm, to Zerg people down. Giving up a defence die on a piece of the swarm to reroll a die of another piece is suboptimal - you trade 100% chance of not rolling an evade on Dedicated clone to get X% chance of rolling one on another clone (X < 100).

2 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

I don't think so. The strength of a swarm is to maintain the swarm, to Zerg people down. Giving up a defence die on a piece of the swarm to reroll a die of another piece is suboptimal - you trade 100% chance of not rolling an evade on Dedicated clone to get X% chance of rolling one on another clone (X < 100).

On the ARC yes, not the Torrent. Torrents have agility 2. Still makes it easier to kill the strained Torrent than if it didn't have a strain, but it isn't a 0% chance to roll an evade on a strained Torrent.

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Reduction of cost should be on overcosted i3s; not dedicated

2 hours ago, Maui. said:

I agree with all of you that the i3 talent slot tax is weird, but it's a separate issue. In a perfect world, all the talented generics would be a little cheaper, but they're not.

Generics swarms are generally the weakest lists going into history: They do fine until combo-wing totally breaks it. And usually you can barely do anything to make the list better, rarely will there be a key upgrade. (Howl and Leia were key upgrades...) This is why BBBBZ was ok until a while. Generic swarm/lists do not get better at the same rate as combo-wing.

You can do BBBBAttackShuttle or BBBBHWKLeia now. They're probably slightly better than they used to be, but this was bad against both Rebel Beef and Resistance 4 ship/Beef.

I hope the size of that makes people remember this and learn how to understand meta. Too much I see people who don't understand this, or what the meta is try and discuss meta and balance.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

On the ARC yes, not the Torrent. Torrents have agility 2. Still makes it easier to kill the strained Torrent than if it didn't have a strain, but it isn't a 0% chance to roll an evade on a strained Torrent.

Well, I'm talking about a single one out of the dice thrown. Regardless of the total, use of Dedicated is like signing a pact that one of the dice of the Dedicated ship will for sure roll unmodifiable blank in exchange for a 5/8 (?) chance to reroll into a meaningful result on the supported ship.

This is fine when the supported ship is of much higher value to your list than the clone (Jedi) and you can put the clone at the expense to save it. In Sinker swarm the only ship worth defending is Sinker, but his single green already means it melts quickly.

Then there's a problem of positioning. A 2x2 block of Torrents cannot reliably fly so that each of them has all 3 comrades on his flank.

That being said, it is worth noting such a swarm could, in a mirror-ish matchup, reliably burn down Sinker before the enemy Torrents get to shoot. Which may or may not save up to 5 damage, also know as one Torrent.

15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Generics swarms are generally the weakest lists going into history: They do fine until combo-wing totally breaks it. And usually you can barely do anything to make the list better, rarely will there be a key upgrade. (Howl and Leia were key upgrades...) This is why BBBBZ was ok until a while. Generic swarm/lists do not get better at the same rate as combo-wing.

You can do BBBBAttackShuttle or BBBBHWKLeia now. They're probably slightly better than they used to be, but this was bad against both Rebel Beef and Resistance 4 ship/Beef.

I hope the size of that makes people remember this and learn how to understand meta. Too much I see people who don't understand this, or what the meta is try and discuss meta and balance.

You found the font size adjuster. Nice... Now would you please tone it back on the scaling, it really hurts the eyes.

5 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Well, I'm talking about a single one out of the dice thrown. Regardless of the total, use of Dedicated is like signing a pact that one of the dice of the Dedicated ship will for sure roll unmodifiable blank in exchange for a 5/8 (?) chance to reroll into a meaningful result on the supported ship.

This is fine when the supported ship is of much higher value to your list than the clone (Jedi) and you can put the clone at the expense to save it. In Sinker swarm the only ship worth defending is Sinker, but his single green already means it melts quickly.

Then there's a problem of positioning. A 2x2 block of Torrents cannot reliably fly so that each of them has all 3 comrades on his flank.

That being said, it is worth noting such a swarm could, in a mirror-ish matchup, reliably burn down Sinker before the enemy Torrents get to shoot. Which may or may not save up to 5 damage, also know as one Torrent.

Fair, though Sinker swarms probably won't remain the only efficient means of fielding Torrents.

The hottest of hot takes incoming.

Dedicated and Ruthless should both be 0pts. Heroic to 2pts.

Dedicated needs the Leia cost treatment just to see if we can get people to use it.

I actually took Ruthless to a Sos and went 6-0 with it. No one ever complains as the "cost" is me sacrificing a health on a ship for the chance to do damage. And the opportunity cost of the ept slot.

Heroic: [It is variance protection for just a single point. Every good player wants variance protection. Hence why 1.0 Palp was so good.] Real reason: it "feels" so bad. 🤬

I just have a philosophical opposition to 0-point upgrades. It's fine for some configurations, where the effect is baked into the ship cost, but Dedicated isn't one of those.

I even think Jamming Beam at 0 points is kind of a mistake in terms of game design; it should have been range 1-3 and with a 1 point cost, but that's an unlikely errata.

12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I just have a philosophical opposition to 0-point upgrades. It's fine for some configurations, where the effect is baked into the ship cost, but Dedicated isn't one of those.

I even think Jamming Beam at 0 points is kind of a mistake in terms of game design; it should have been range 1-3 and with a 1 point cost, but that's an unlikely errata.

It's not a 0 point upgrade though. It's a *however much the elite generic costs over the regular* upgrade.

And Jamming Beam wouldn't be worth any more points at r1-3. The biggest issue with it is trading your only shot in a given round for no damage.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I just have a philosophical opposition to 0-point upgrades. It's fine for some configurations, where the effect is baked into the ship cost, but Dedicated isn't one of those.

I even think Jamming Beam at 0 points is kind of a mistake in terms of game design; it should have been range 1-3 and with a 1 point cost, but that's an unlikely errata.

At least Tractor is range 1-3.

I guess the 0 cost on certain upgrades is a little subjective since we are presuming to already pay to have the slot at all (Cannon slots, sensor, etc)