Interesting, I always thought the improvements in gunpowder weapons simply decreased the use of metal armor, which mainly stops the sharp and pointy hand helds, but not fast moving blunt projectiles.

There's probably strategically placed stockpiles of Gaijin Pepper for the next time they try to invade, but what is the utility against more honorable opponents? Akodo's flexibility on methods of war notwithstanding.

Actually, there are many surviving examples of Sengoku-Tokugawa armor with bullet dents in them since they practiced and experimented with the armor to improve protection. Of course once you get into the rifled bullets and the like, the metal armor doesn't really matter anymore. And interestingly enough, Chinese city walls, which were typically made of tamped earth faced with brick, were incredibly impervious to even 19th-20th century explosive cannon shells. So there are low-tech ways to counter these high-tech weapons.

As for Rokugan, I could see such weapons also being employed against the Shadowlands creatures. In fact, I've got the germ of an adventure idea wherein an intrepid band of heroes must sneak into a ruined castle or wherever and recover some of said weapons and bring them back to the Crab.

This reminds me that the way my gaming group handled firearms is to give a tech boost to armor too. Our Rokugan had fairly advanced wheellock muskets and even portable rocket launchers but it also had samurai wearing composite ceramic/steel body armor. To get through that armor you would need either exception quality or exceptional quantity, and firearms had neither. The technique of cutting projectiles out of air is also fairly widespread while those **** monks developed a specific kiho to send cannonballs and musket bullets back Kung-Fu Panda style.

13 hours ago, Masakiyo said:

Actually, there are many surviving examples of Sengoku-Tokugawa armor with bullet dents in them since they practiced and experimented with the armor to improve protection

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If I'm not mistaken, that's actually the etymology of "bulletproof" as in, "proofed against a bullet". Armors would fire a pistol into the armor to show you it would stand up to the impact.

34 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

If I'm not mistaken, that's actually the etymology of "bulletproof" as in, "proofed against a bullet". Armors would fire a pistol into the armor to show you it would stand up to the impact.

That's correct. You see bullet-proofing dents a lot in later western armour.

The problem is that most high-ranking individuals (i.e. the ones who can afford plate) fought as cavalry - and whilst you can bullet-proof the man, it's a lot harder to bullet-proof the horse. Which is why armour steadily changed into the compromise of the half-cuirass style stuff you see around the thirty years war and three kingdoms wars, which puts bullet-resistant armour over your head and vital organs in the torso but basically leaves your arms, lower legs and the horse unprotected, meaning the horse can actually move at a decent speed because it's not carrying several hundredweight of ironmongery.

14 hours ago, Masakiyo said:

As for Rokugan, I could see such weapons also being employed against the Shadowlands creatures. In fact, I've got the germ of an adventure idea wherein an intrepid band of heroes must sneak into a ruined castle or wherever and recover some of said weapons and bring them back to the Crab.

Definitely. Remember that the view on crossbows was much the same as the view on guns - they could be used easily by poorly trained soldiers and could kill an armoured opponent. Historically, the Church tried to ban crossbows in europe, and in the Rokugani setting, using them on other samurai has historically been seen as less than honourable. The Crab have historically used crossbows, ballistae, catapults and tetsubo with a will, because they're not fighting an honourable opponent and need every advantage they can get.

6 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Definitely. Remember that the view on crossbows was much the same as the view on guns - they could be used easily by poorly trained soldiers and could kill an armoured opponent. Historically, the Church tried to ban crossbows in europe, and in the Rokugani setting, using them on other samurai has historically been seen as less than honourable. The Crab   have historically used crossbows, ballistae, catapults and tetsubo with a will, because they're not fighting an honourable opponent and need every advantage they can get.     

I love it when a plan comes together...I think I'll call that adventure "Dark Necessities."

And the crossbow bans are interesting from a cultural perspective. In China, where there was no knightly class after around 200 BC, there were no cultural predilections against crossbows at all. They had many different models, including repeating crossbows. And from a relatively early stage they were used for rotational volley fire. This is one reason they developed volley fire earlier in China than in Europe. The Japanese also appear to have hit upon the idea independently, though the famous Battle of Nagashino was probably NOT the first time it was used there.

1 hour ago, Masakiyo said:

And from a relatively early stage they were used for rotational volley fire. This is one reason they developed volley fire earlier in China than in Europe.

For that matter, the most infamous medieval practitioners of massed volley fire were Welsh and English Longbowmen, who got pretty much the same disdain and disgust from the feudal knights in France, Flanders and Burgundy. The nobility don't like it when the peasants kill them in large numbers.

Interestingly enough, by comparison, in a lot of ancient eastern Mediterranean and Mesopotamian cultures, it's emphatically the archers who were the noble class. Largely because big 'shock' warhorses that could carry a well-armoured soldier hadn't been bred yet (hence part of the focus on chariots rather than cavalry per se in the ancient world*) and because only utter cretins would try wearing a heavy weight of stifling metal in the sweltering heat of the noonday middle-eastern sun.

Which probably explained why the Persians, Parthians and Saracens tended to turn the European cretins who did do that into dehydrated, arrow-riddled pincushions whenever they tried to fight big wars in the desert interior. But that's by the by.

It's also because Archery was seen as a 'noble's skill' - despite all the variations you've seen in the films, the Immortals were as much archers as melee troops, and almost every historical depiction I've seen has them armed with bows.

* Which is an observation; Rokugani clearly know of the concept of chariots; firstly, if you can build a wheeled cart you can build a chariot, and secondly the game of Shogi apparently includes the piece "Flying Chariot". Theoretically they should be (or at least historically should have been ) attractive to clans who don't have decent quality horseflesh (in Modern Rokugan meaning " has a bad political relationship with the Unicorn ") and tend to be on the offensive militarily in lowland and plains terrain. Which basically means the Lion Clan, although I guess possibly also the Crane.

As everyone here knows, archery was obviously a noble skill in Japan,as well as in Korea. It was the major martial pursuit of the elites in Korea. It was also one of the Six Arts in ancient China, though it's relative importance as a social marker declined there later.

As to your point about chariots in Rokugan, I sense another potential adventure seed. Enterprising young strategist unveils war chariots for a crucial engagement and smashes the enemy.

By the way in late imperial China they would sometimes use carts in conjunction with mobile cavalry, light artillery and handguns against mobile foes. Carts would be turned on their sides as used for cover by gunners while cavalry tried to funnel foes, usually Mongols towards the gunners. The carts also were used in sieges in northwest China against Muslim rebels.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Which probably explained why the Persians, Parthians and Saracens tended to turn the European cretins who did do that into dehydrated, arrow-riddled pincushions whenever they tried to fight big wars in the desert interior. But that's by the by.

Until the Athenians defeated the Immortals at Marathon and the Spartans did the same at Thermopylae, both using the phalanx, terrain, and tactics to do so. This of course shattered the idea that the immortals were unbeatable with Alexander the Great Later conquering Persia and Bactria before moving into India through Punjab.

Me thinks that the Lion Infantry, directed by the Akodo would have figured this out. Certainly the Ikoma should be aware of the nature of strengths and weakness interplay between Artillery(archers), Infantry, and Cavalry. Even without dedicated mounted Cavalry, you can still have mounted Infantry that serve as quick-strike forces in the same manner if not as effective. Mounted Matsu (a bizarre thought indeed) could be said mobile infantry. The trick of course, is to get under their guns.

1 minute ago, neilcell said:

Even without dedicated mounted Cavalry, you can still have mounted Infantry that serve as quick-strike forces in the same manner if not as effective.

Well, prior to having anything you could call 'heavy cavalry' (which didn't come about till the Unicorn's return both in doctrine and the horses which could support it), you can still have something resembling chariots and chariot runners, giving you something not a million miles in a tactical sense from renaissance dragoons. Scythed chariots feel a bit indiscriminite for bushido, but I guess you're only massacring the other sides' ashigaru, and historically those things primarily broke apart formations for shock units to follow into breaches rather than caused that many kills.

I can definitely imagine the lion having a chariot corps. Carroballista were historically a thing, but if you're not supposed to use artillery on humans, it doesn't matter if it's on wheels or not. But spear chariots and transports? Definitely. They never caught on in Japan, because Japan doesn't have big rolling plains but Rokugan does.