Related: is Trajectory Simulator too expensive?

The early 2e release at 3 points was clearly absurd and too cheap. 10 feels a bit over-nerfed (a few things got over-nerfed in the first Adjustment, such as nearly everything Scum). 7 kinda seems like it'd be right, and even 8 would be an improvement.

//

Anyhow, a friend of mine has been flying a decent amount of Vennie. Seems OK. Perceptive Copilot + Rey + Veteran Turret Gunner, and the thing just takes *forever* to die.

I think there are certainly worse lists in X-Wing than Starfortress lists, but they do seem generally unimpressive.

Gonna shameless plug the Eplic Play forum and say that I've happily shelved my B17 squadbuilding for 100/6 dogfights and looking forward to using it in every Epic match.

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Related: is Trajectory Simulator too expensive?

The early 2e release at 3 points was clearly absurd and too cheap. 10 feels a bit over-nerfed (a few things got over-nerfed in the first Adjustment, such as nearly everything Scum). 7 kinda seems like it'd be right, and even 8 would be an improvement.

By all means, let's walk this little tangent. TrajSim only received that nerf because it was too good on the already too-good Punishers. Any other ship, it merely makes the ship an almost acceptable bomb-tote, except that it is now far too costly on what is generally already a too costly ship.

Look at a base Punisher vs. the base Whale. Less health, less attack, fewer attack arcs, yes. But *much* better dial, repositioning, linked actions, more versatile upgrade slots, higher initiative, and **18** points cheaper.

Why?

7 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

By all means, let's walk this little tangent. TrajSim only received that nerf because it was too good on the already too-good Punishers. Any other ship, it merely makes the ship an almost acceptable bomb-tote, except that it is now far too costly on what is generally already a too costly ship.

Look at a base Punisher vs. the base Whale. Less health, less attack, fewer attack arcs, yes. But *much* better dial, repositioning, linked actions, more versatile upgrade slots, higher initiative, and **18** points cheaper.

Why?

Health pool + access to double tap.

Well crap, I just got one of these (used). Now apparently they’re no good? 😆

I’d like to at least fly the thing a bit. Surely something out of the transport must help it a little?!

8 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Well crap, I just got one of these (used). Now apparently they’re no good? 😆

I’d like to at least fly the thing a bit. Surely something out of the transport must help it a little?!

Give it a go and see if you like it.

I've never run one of the Bombers so I can't contribute in that regard. I just want to toss out a hearty thanks for starting a fun topic like this.

1 hour ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Well crap, I just got one of these (used). Now apparently they’re no good? 😆

I’d like to at least fly the thing a bit. Surely something out of the transport must help it a little?!

I mean, it's not that they're *no* good. It's just that - especially in faction - the equivalent points in T-70's is far more competitive. More gooder. The Transport and its contents do help. But there's not much to be done for the general overcosted nature of the beast.

20 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

I just want to toss out a hearty thanks for starting a fun topic like this.

^^Heartily seconded! However much I may grumble.

I think a large part of the difficulty with the Starfortress is its dual nature. It is both gunship and bomber, and is costed as if both uses had equal utility, as if you really were getting two ships in one. But that's not quite the case. Especially as bombs aren't quite as good as they used to be. I know most folks don't want to go back the old days, when bombs were pretty clearly too good. But. Right now, it seems that you're generally better off just using your points to get more ships on the table.

Not saying it’s the best or anything, but if you’re looking for a cheaper (for a StarFortress at least) gunship build, you could try

Cobalt Sq Bomber 56

Chewbacca 5

Finn 10

Passive sensors 3

Total: 74

Use passive sensors to lock your target. Finn adds a die and Chewbacca gives a crit mod on a focus result for a mini double mod on offense. Jam him into the enemy formation and either soak up a bunch of shots or live long enough to take up space and roll some big hits.

Love the look of them. In fact, when converting to 2.0, I seriously considered selling all my ST stuff and sticking to OT factions only, but then decided to keep collecting ST due do how cool they look on the table (also Poe's T70, the RZ-2 Awing and, slightly lesser but also good, the batwing)

Against a foe who has no idea what they're doing, they work wonders.

Otherwise, leave them in the box. Seriously. They are severely overcosted and not worth X-Wing points. Let's go down why...

So you want to fly a Starfortress?

Well, let's go down reasons why you could, and reasons why you shouldn't.

It has amazing coverage! No seriously the coverage is BONKERS. 3 arcs? ****..! But... here's the problem. How many are you gonna' be able to modify shots out of? Let's go over that that, shall we?
Vennie: Well, he's the crowd favorite for obvious reasons. If an enemy is in the Falcon or an A-Wing's arc, you can straight up add another focus result. Cool. With Tallie this is even better, because that makes a bomber that's borderline impossible to hit! Except... You gotta' spend that focus with a focus token right? Right. So, here's the issue. After he defends, Vennie can't modify his attacks. This is a non concern if you have initiative over your aggressor but... How many I1s are you actually gonna' engage with Vennie? Not frakkin' many, okay? Seriously, not many.

*Paige Tico: She's basically stapled to bombers because she allows you to rotate that bowtie forward, and do a second attack at a target if you have VTG enabled as well. But that's both your gunner slots. You're paying 15 points for two shots on the same target and having the option to shoot sideways if you want, but guaranteeing that second shot won't be modified. That's stupid, and you shouldn't do it.

Buuuut, waaait... There's a caveat here. What if you equip Perceptive Copilot?

Hey! Now we're getting somewhere! Vennie+PC+PT+VTG can do some serious damage! and afford to evade if their escort- Tallie, is chasing down their attacker, wow that's pretty cool!

...Except, it's very circumstantial, and... wait for it... You're paying 23 points to modify two shots on an I2 low shield blaster bolt sponge.

Back. Back. BACK. Back to the drawing board. There's nothing here for you. This build costs 83 points! What do you have any points left over for?

Oh. Tallie, L'ulo and Greer, naked. Hey, we forgot something at home, turn around. We forgot to get Tallie! Throw Heroic, Crack Shot, and Advanced Optics on her. Cool, good, excellent. Wait, this list is now 125 points. What do you mean we don't have any bombs yet?

Y'see the problem with Vennie? A usable Vennie with good mods costs upwards of 125 points. That's about 65% of your list. The Resistance has NO. FILLER. This sucks! So who else can we use?

Ben Teene: Okay, he's actually kind of cool because his ability is interesting. His ability does not care if you have shields and does not care what bomb goes off. So you can drop a seismic charge to rattle a crit onto somebody who really doesn't want it. Hey, that's actually great! Let's capitalize on this one!

Ben Teene + Ablative Plating (He wants this, I'll tell you why in a second.) + Seismic + Proton.

Cool. Ben Teene can drop bombs for four consecutive turns if he wants, or really however often he desires. He wants to do this, too! Indiscriminately! Any direction, forward or behind him, you don't ant to be in either one..! But heeeeere's the problem... He has to attack somebody with his bowtie arc to apply rattled.

Now, they don't have to successfully defend. Ben Teene just has to shoot at somebody who was within Range 1 of a bomb he dropped going off, and he'll deal a crit. Okay, this is great. You literally need no gunner or turret mods. You can throw Paige on if you want but... Why? VTG but... I mean, sure. If you throw Paige and VTG on there, you can poop a bomb, shoot, poop another bomb, and shoot again. That's actually great but will deplete half of your bomb stock immediately. You'd need REALLY favorable circumstances to even justify this, and check this out.

If you don't need these turret mods, you don't need to waste points on weapon based cards. So you can focus on just shooting at stuff near bombs you barf and make areas of denial, that's very powerful. Don't put the gunners on, Ben stays at a nice little 85 points. What do we have space for? Hilariously, the naked top three A-Wings again, or, a heroic Ello Asty and Nien Nunb combo... That's actually not total crap. There's potential here. Just keep the gunners off of Ben for the love of god.

Edon Kappehl: Skip. He just allows you to drop a bomb after you move. That's cute and all, but at I3 you're probably not surprising anybody with that. There's no gimmick here that actually makes Edon worth taking, I don't think.

Finch Dallow: Has a deathwish. Cool that you can drop a bomb anywhere touching you, but it'll be in your rear quarter panels because you probably still want to get away from it. Aside from attacking at I4, he's really not that handy.

Cat: An offensive Ben Teene focused on raw damage rather than conditions. Actually worth putting gunners and such on, but again... She's I1. Now, she'll attack after all mods have been spent, which rocks. But she has to survive that long. Consider a gunboat Cat but remember something needs to drop those bombs she needs too. Ben Teene is doubtlessly better.

But there's one last Bomber pilot to consider...

Paige Tico: You know what, it's cool. She attacks at I5 and can drop two bombs in one turn. Very cool indeed. Just... one problem. That's- that's all she can do and she definitely costs more than Finch Dallow. Haaaaard to sell me on THAT one, FFG... But VTG+PC at I5 allows the hardest and earliest area denial strategies out of the entire bunch. But to make her valid, you have to have bombs strapped to her. She can be a good gunship, but if you aren't taking bombs, you're just taking her for initiative.

In that case just take any high I A or X-Wing.

ADDENDUM

Bombers ain't in a good spot, chief. They're prohibitively expensive and they hate damage, which they readily receive. The only valid choice IMO is Ben Teene, because he doesn't actually need mods. He just has to hack up bombs and reload every so often, and keep stuff forward and back of him. That's it. He needs to do NOTHING else. He doesn't even need double tap unless you have delayed fuses on him for... some... reason.

Frankly? I'd assert they could use up to a ten point reduction. "Hey, that's X-Wing prices!" That's right, for something WAY squishier than an X-Wing! It can't last. It just can't. It's a crit sponge but unlike the V-19, it isn't built to die. Not this way. God, you almost need a shield upgrade on this stupid thing to make it viable.

No matter what you do, it's half of your list, you will lose it every match, and you need to understand it is there to do its job and just die. If you're taking a bomber, you're taking a huge coffin. Your auxiliaries better be GOOD.

Lackwit, I pinned these guys at around 52-56 base on another thread, although I don't think they'd be broken at 50 base.

I can see why ffg wouldn't want four full turrets on the board in 2.0. ... That's just four 1.0 turret spam all over again. No skill. Just dice.

39 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Lackwit, I pinned these guys at around 52-56 base on another thread, although I don't think they'd be broken at 50 base.

I can see why ffg wouldn't want four full turrets on the board in 2.0. ... That's just four 1.0 turret spam all over again. No skill. Just dice.

True as that may be, they hit basically nothing and VTG is prohibitively expensive on them.

Maybe if FFG made missions where you were required to 'bomb' a ground target' (or a large ship like an isd/vsd), these might be more useful, but from what little 2.0 ive seen, i don't think they are worth the points they cost.

The best Vennie builds come in at 104-106 ... no idea where 125 points comes from. Percop plus m9-g8 on an escort Bastian and you get something that is hyper accurate.

Just flat out stating that they are in a bad spot is baseless hyperbole. They fly differently and you cant mindlessly shove them into the enemy like you can with quad T-70s. I got top table on an 87 person hyperspace trial with Vennie/Bastian/Lulo. Since the points changes I can’t fit Lulo anymore but there’s a lot of good solid fun and competitive advantage to be had from a star fortress.

On Traj Sim and costs. Star fortress already got a 10+ point drop to coincide with the 10 point increase to traj sim.

17 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

The best Vennie builds come in at 104-106 ... no idea where 125 points comes from. Percop plus m9-g8 on an escort Bastian and you get something that is hyper accurate.

Just flat out stating that they are in a bad spot is baseless hyperbole. They fly differently and you can mindlessly shove them into the enemy like you can with quad T-70s. I got top table on an 87 person hyperspace trial with Vennie/Bastian/Lulo. Since the points changes I can’t fit Lulo anymore but there’s a lot of good solid fun and competitive advantage to be had from a star fortress.

Tallie. She's stapled to Vennie, flat out.

nope. The only thing that is staples to Vennie is VTG. You want to give him M9-G8 too so that means flying him with an Astromech carrying escort (usually Bastian, though the new resistance transport is another option)

im a bit astonished at the general tone of this thread to be honest. Vennie is a great piece, he costs half your list when built well but he does the work of two ships comfortably. He’s my favourite ship in 2nd edition to date and I’ve not even scratched the surface of what you can do with him. Still need to fly the stealth device/Rey build.

7 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Id like to at least fly the thing a bit. Surely something out of the transport must help it a little?!

I do not fly Resistance, so not knowing the faction well, but could there be something in GA97 shenanigans?

But the bomber's dial probably would still make it difficult to capitalise on deploying late, and GA97 is 8 pts as well.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Vennie: Well, he's the crowd favorite for obvious reasons.

Fair. Vennie--while individually potent--costs a lot, and the final list is not overpowered.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Ben Teene: Okay, he's actually kind of cool because his ability is interesting. His ability does not care if you have shields and does not care what bomb goes off. So you can drop a seismic charge to rattle a crit onto somebody who really doesn't want it. Hey, that's actually great! Let's capitalize on this one!

One note: "Suffer 1 [crit-kaboom]" from the Rattled condition is still going to be taken on Shields first.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Edon Kappehl: Skip. He just allows you to drop a bomb after you move. That's cute and all, but at I3 you're probably not surprising anybody with that. There's no gimmick here that actually makes Edon worth taking, I don't think.

Finch Dallow: Has a deathwish. Cool that you can drop a bomb anywhere touching you, but it'll be in your rear quarter panels because you probably still want to get away from it. Aside from attacking at I4, he's really not that handy.

Edon and Finch seem like they're both less about surprise, and more about *distance*. Most bombs are 1-straight behind the base, while placing one after moving or along the base edge is a little like having a Trajector Simulator for free well, not free... they're 8 points more than a Generic, but they also gain Initiative.

Bombardment Drones only cost 3 points more than Separatist Bombers for their Launch ability, which is probably about equivalent in power. So Edon and Finch definitely are over-paying.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Cat: An offensive Ben Teene focused on raw damage rather than conditions. Actually worth putting gunners and such on, but again... She's I1.

Paige Tico: You know what, it's cool. She attacks at I5 and can drop two bombs in one turn. Very cool indeed. Just... one problem. That's- that's all she can do and she definitely costs more than Finch Dallow.

Cat seems cool, particularly since she's only 1 point over a generic, and Delayed Fuses make her ability actually-usable. However, there is the same problem of weakening the overall list because these cost so much, even if she's kinda neat.

As to Paige, I could see her being priced less than Finch/Edon. They both have abilities which dramatically increase bomb coverage and simulate the Trajectory Simulator. Not saying Paige is definitely cheaper, but I could see it going either way.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Frankly? I'd assert they could use up to a ten point reduction. "Hey, that's X-Wing prices!" That's right, for something WAY squishier than an X-Wing! It can't last. It just can't. It's a crit sponge but unlike the V-19, it isn't built to die. Not this way. God, you almost need a shield upgrade on this stupid thing to make it viable.

But it's not way squishier than an X-Wing. Before factoring in crits, T-70 takes about 4.9 attacks to die, Starfortress takes 6.7. Now, crits can be nasty on Bombers, but in order for a bomber to die faster than an X-Wing, it'd need to take FOUR extra damage from crits, which isn't realistic. There simply aren't enough Fuel Leaks and Direct Hits to do it.

They certainly need to be cheaper, but I'm with @ficklegreendice in that you probably can't go below 51 points. Getting 48 health with this amount of arc coverage would probably be excessive.

After wave 2 arrived I flew Finch quite a lot. I usually played him alongside Poe and L'ulo but also with a lower T70 and 2 A-Wings. My usual loadout was

Finch was a lot of fun to fly and could dish out a ton of damage. Anything that had the misfortune to fly in range 1 in front of him just melted away. And I usually managed to place the seismic charges so I had the option to blow one of 2 or even 3 obstacles. That always ensured to hit the intended target(s). I had good results with the list, won several league matches and I only remember one loss.

I stopped flying Finch with the arrival of the Separatists. I feared that my list would stand a small chance against the plethora of new swarms. Even if i would manage to shoot 1 or 2 Droids, thn remaining energy shell charges would make short work of the Starfortress. But I've never actually flown it against a swarm.

What I would need to fly the bomber again is a free trajectory simulator. Yes: Free!* The trajectory simulator is made for the bomber and the fact that the punisher can take it killed it. I completely understand anyone who hates trajectory and I agree that it shouldn't be put on any other ship. But the Starfortress really needs it to be an effective bomber. As of now the 10 points for the trajectory makes the bomber way too expensive.

*Ok, ok. I would take it for 1 or 2 points. But 10... no way.

13 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

No matter what you do, it's half of your list, you will lose it every match, and you need to understand it is there to do its job and just die. If you're taking a bomber, you're taking a huge coffin. Your auxiliaries better be GOOD.

Yeah, but don't you just love it when FFG nails the fluff, too. 🤣

I took Vennie Lulo and Poe to the PHX System Open in the extended format and went 3/3 with 2 of my losses coming down to the final die roll. I haven't tried the current "legal" version of the list yet... but I plan on bringing it out again real soon.

Vennie (60)
Trajectory Simulator (10)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
C-3PO (6)
Seismic Charges (3)
Proton Bombs (5)

Greer Sonnel (36)
Heroic (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Nien Nunb (55)
Heroic (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Black One (2)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

the points changes since Feb have made the list harder to fit than what it once was.... but this still has a lot of potential I feel.

When Holdo was spoiled, there was some speculation about using her to toss a reinforce (from Angled Deflectors) on a bomber. That was quashed by her timing (“when you engage”) and the low initiative of the bomber and transport pilots.

However, with Paige from Hotshots and Aces being I5, the Holdo/Deflectors combo could be viable, leading to a much tankier bomber.

So what about :

Finn in the pod with GA97 (Finn has shown himself to he somewhat of a 2.5gun, and being harder then he seems to be), Greer, Nien (or maybe Kare if wanting to move fancy and match Ini of Greer). And It's the Resistance brings

Ben with Seismics and Protons.

You still have room for other stuff (and if its just Heroic) on the 3 first ships.

As said above, I do not have Resistance, so not sure what's the best option after Finn and Ben, you can fit 2 of the lower T70s, if not going for A and T70. The first group has to bait the enemy so that the Starfortress can smash into the flank and does damage, and being a lot of points coming late and taking time to chew up, maybe too much time before game ends.

Not saying that this is a good build, but it could be an effective surprise if flown well, and hey, the thread asked after ideas.