Not everyone has enough St to parry, not everyone has enough To to block, and not everyone has enough Ag to dodge.

Active defenses really need 3 cards, not a single one like you suggest.

dvang said:

This hits the nail on the head, at least for my group. Of my four players, only one (the dwarfen pit fighter) has all the basic defence actions. Most have two, and one player has only a single basic defence action.

Silverwave said:

I also want to point out that this cracked me up a bit. Someone commenting on having too many options for character development.

Nothing personal, Silverwave. I'm just saying, of all the "complaints" I've seen about WFRP3e ... 'too many options' just strikes me as funny. Of course, I'm kind of weird that way.

It's not too many options for character developpement (that is fine!). It's too many options in play at the same time, especially for starting characters. It's a bit like you would start playing WoW for the first time and you had as much spells/powers as a lvl 80 characters. You'll feel overwhelmed, no doubt.

Beyond a certain number of options, the human brain exceeeds it's ability to evaluate. It's Miller's Law, also known as "the rule of seven" or "the magical number seven, plus or minus two", and some folks just call it "analysis paralysis". While practice and familiarity can improve on this, ultimately the limit is to a certain extent hard-wired. If given more than 5 to 9 options, the quality and speed of your decisions suffers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two

This game puts your basic actions for a starting character right inside that range, and then just adds more as you go. It's an interesting design choice.

r_b_bergstrom said:

Those two last comments are really interesting! True for Miller's Law, but also true that you can see some as a "pack". Like all melee attack cards is one option, all social cards are another. But it also means that you can't possibly remember each individual card inside each "pack" (well, you can if put enough effort... but I don't have the time nor the desire to study each card, that's for sure), so you'll still have to look at each individual card when you figure which "pack" you'll have to use.

One thing to keep in mind that that no one is forcing the PCs to take action cards (other than the basic ones). A PC can easily spend all their xp on talents, skills, and stats.

So, if a player is afraid of being overwhelmed by action cards, then they can minimize purchasing them or even avoid them entirely.

Silverwave said:

dvang said:

Yes, but then he would also never be able to complete a career and take the Dedication bonus either since Action Card is one of the Fixed Career Advances. So while a PC can forgo taking Action cards per the front of his career sheet as Open Advances, he can't avoid them entirely if he wants to complete a career and must take a minimum of one new Action Card.

mac40k said:

That.

Fresnel said:

Well i guess Riposte and Counterblow are some new cards.I could only first Warhammer set so dont have those two in deck.Guess they are from Adventurers toolkit?What are characteristics of those 2?

Having multiple active defenses is cool. Think about it this way. You're watching a movie, the hero doesn't just parry every blow that comes at him does he?

No he blocks the first strike with his shield pushing it aside, then whirls around ducking under the next attack dodging certain death, barely bringing up his sword in time to parry the cut aimed at his head.

My characters love calling out how they are evading the enemy. It helps tell the story of the fight so much better than I use "defense" to stop the attack.

The active defenses are story telling tools. Like everything in this game it is here to paint a more vivid picture in your mind. There are plenty of other RPG's out there with one defense trait. I think this is one of the things that make this version of WHFRP fun and unique.

I also think if you have a tank that is throwing down a lot of them you just need to play the recharge game with him. But never forget that a tank is supposed to be hard to hit. He doesn't throw balls of fire, heal anybody, sneak around unnoticed. Got to give him his moment in the sun. (Then put him in a small boat on a deep river and have something nasty knock him off .)

lystrapitts said:

Isn't this what we call narration? It doen't need rules. But, well, yes it can help you, as you stated.

You are right, good DM's don't need it, but we're not all great DM's and even the best of us can get stuck in the attack roll-damage-done groove and our combat scenes lose sizzle.

It just seems to help, as long as the players are doing their part (sometimes you have to make them do it) to have somebody say "Throw up my shield and try to block that ax!" and slap down their action card with gusto. Instead of just going "Block" and placing the card on the table.

I am lucky in that I have great players that I've been playing with for decades now but I firmly believe that even the most munchkin of players wants to paint a vivid picture as bad as the best role players and they'll do it, if you make them.

Silverwave said:

Sure it needs rules. If someone says he "blocks the first strike with his shield pushing it aside", it is obviously great narratively, but I as a GM need to know what it means mechanically as well.

Congzilla said:

I meant, I don't need this rule to specify wether I'm blocking, evading, parying, making a side step, rolling, or whatnot. Yes, I need a rule to help me defend against an attack, but I would have liked it much more if I were able to decide, depending the situation, what is my defensive action.

Silverwave said:

Well if one of those cards you named wouldn't work for what you want to do, wouldn't the "Perform a Stunt"?

Congzilla said:

Yes, and no. Active defenses aren't skill checks. They're not even a check (well, not from you anyway). But I agree that you can combine them into a broader category. That's what I do in my games; I've merged the 3 active defenses cards into one that you can use once per turn and take advantage of all 3 trained skills (coordination, weapon skill and resilience) for an added misfotune. But, hey, that's just me.

I have a rule that allows players to parry/block for other allies in the same engagement. This makes tanks more useful for the group as whole and less focused on just being a turtle themselves.

It's beautiful

Gallows said:

I f you have a good rule for it you should post it in the House Rules section so we can all check it out.

Gallows said:

I have a rule that allows players to parry/block for other allies in the same engagement. This makes tanks more useful for the group as whole and less focused on just being a turtle themselves.

It's beautiful

Isn't there a card just for that? My life for yours, or something like that?

EDIT : sorry, for some reason, /quote didn't worked ??

Gallows said:

Umm, even better is if they use ... (geez I'm at work and having a brain fart) ... one of the basic action cards ... Guarded Position (I think?) that helps protect others in the same engagement.

Silverwave said:

Yes there is, but still it's a nice idea.

dvang said:

No that's not the same. That limits their ability to attack. Uding dodge, block and parry doesn't They can also use everything if they really want to defend a friend.