Can Swarm Tactics "undo" Torkil Mux (and vice versa)?

Background

• Torkil Mux reads: "At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc. If you do, that ship engages at initiative 0 instead of its normal initiative value this round."
• Swarm Tactics reads: "At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 friendly ship at range 1. If you do, that ship treats its initiative as equal to yours until the end of the round."
• Engagement Phase (Rules Ref 1.0.4, page 3) does not specify anything about the "start of engagement", so I presume they are happening at the same time and go into the "Start of Engagement Ability Queue" (page 2, Abilities).
• The Ability Queue is resolved in Player Order, not Initiative Order (page 3, Ability Queue).

Scenario Squads

• Scum: Torkil Mux, and the rest doesn't matter.
• Imperial: Alpha Squadron Pilot, Soontir Fel, and Maarek Steele with Swarm Tactics

Scenario 1

Scum is First Player. Mux takes Fel to i0. Can Steele Swarm Fel back to i5?

No. Although Swam replaces Fel's Initiative Value (i6 -> i5), Mux forces Fell to engage at i0.

Scenario 2

Imperial is First Player. Steele Swarms ASP up to i5. Can Mux knock ASP down to i0?

Yes. Again, it doesn't matter that Swam replaced the Initiative Value (i1 -> i5), Again, Mux forces ASP to engage at i0.

Scenario 3

Scum is First Player, taking Steele to i0. Can Steele Swam ASP to i5?

Yes. Mux did not affect the Steele's Initiative, only at what initiative Steele will engage, once we are beyond the "Start of Engagement."

Conclusion?

While Swarm Tactics changes a ship's initiative value, Mux changes when a ship engages. Because these effects do not affect the same element of the game, they do not replace or interfere with each other.

Is that all accurate?

11 minutes ago, Opsmason said:

Is that all accurate?

yep

12 minutes ago, Opsmason said:

These are both replacement effects, both effecting Initiative. Only one of them can take effect (page 2, Replacement Effects).

They don't fit the examples given so no, they would be applied in player order if they affected the same thing (which they don't).

Other than that, good catch. Much like you cannot Swarm Tactics off a Roark boosted ship, Swarm Tactics doesn't mitigate Torkil's ability due to the difference between "treat (x) as" and "engage at". I like what you noticed about a Mux'd I5 still being able to boost another ship.

The key point is that Mux (And Roark) don't alter initiative. They alter the time at which a ship engages. Regardless of changes to its init.

Thanks, @Hiemfire , I actually meant to take that out. I thought I was so careful!

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The key point is that Mux (And Roark) don't alter initiative. They alter the time at which a ship engages. Regardless of changes to its init.

Though player order comes into effect if Mux and Roark, or Heightened Perception, are affecting the same ship with Second Player's ability overriding First Player's.

4 minutes ago, Opsmason said:

Thanks, @Hiemfire , I actually meant to take that out. I thought I was so careful!

Meh, no worries.

When does a ship engage if it is the target of both Roark and Torkil? Or Rebel Han Gunner and Torkil? Or Heightened Perception and Torkil?

Torkil, Roark, and HP all have the same trigger, so whoever has second player's effect takes priority.

Rebel Han Gunner is independent of the ship's engagement during the engagament phase, and is unaffected by any of them.

Quote

Torkil, Roark, and HP all have the same trigger, so whoever has second player's effect takes priority.

So if Torkil is second player the target ship will engage at 0. It follows that this would also be true if that same ship were also the target of swam tactics.

From the rules under Ability Queue "If both players have abilities that trigger from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order."

Being second player is super important for a Torkil list.

Nope. Swarm tactics changes the pilot's init value. Roark and Torkil don't. They change when it engages.

This is thought to be to prevent Roark from comboing with Swarm Tactics to make a whole squad shoot at i7.