I've spent a ton of time, money and energy on products by Fantasy Flight Games. I organized weekly x-wing nights for several years, got all my friends into x-wing, bought everything Runewars had to offer, painted, built terrain and invested in this community. I still love these games, but I'm not a fan of FFG anymore. I won't get into the details, but I don't think they treated the fans of this game well. I'm really glad I have this game, but I won't be buying any future FFG products.

Also, I know it sells well, but Legion just feels like stale, un-creative Disney drivel to me.

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 12:50 PM, Hepitude said:

Also, I know it sells well, but Legion just feels like stale, un-creative Disney drivel to me.

Can't tell if you're talking about the game or the movies.

I agree with you OP. They killed off a game with a dedicated fan base, just like GW did with Warhammer Fantasy. And the thing is, Runewars was a game that a lot of those WFB players picked up to get that rank and file military strategy fix. To be let down like that again... well, it can turn people away from the hobby altogether. I was an avid Runewars collector and Star Wars Armada player, and I bought at least one of everything Elves and every SWA release, but stopped shortly after they dropped Runewars. So I don't blame you.

The flip side of this story is that FFG at least produced a full game, to the point where all the factions received at least equal releases if not equal force balance. And a dedicated fan base does not automatically equal a profitable fan base. FFG made a full game, and then stated when they felt the game was complete so the fans would know. That's more than some companies do. I'm still salty over PP's handling of the end of Monpoc 1.0....which as fans we're still waiting to hear the story behind why they just stopped making things with the third and final release of the second wave never produced.

The gaming landscape is tough, and Runewars' fate was pretty much revealed when the game didn't take off after Adepticon put several hundred starters into the market.

I didn't even play Runewars, but I do agree they dropped the ball on this game. Ity had a lot of potential, but I think FFG underestimated the resources and the market for this type of game. This wasn't X-wing that is played with 3-5 minis, and it wasn't Legion, which probably uses the same molds for most of their releases, and I think it was too much for them. FFG thought they could be GW or P3 and it backfired.

16 hours ago, C2K said:

I didn't even play Runewars, but I do agree they dropped the ball on this game. Ity had a lot of potential, but I think FFG underestimated the resources and the market for this type of game. This wasn't X-wing that is played with 3-5 minis, and it wasn't Legion, which probably uses the same molds for most of their releases, and I think it was too much for them. FFG thought they could be GW or P3 and it backfired.

P3 = Privateer Press? Ew, why would FFG want to be them?

As soon as Legion was announced, I had a feeling that Runewars was more or less a test run of the production methods they would need to make Legion. Maybe even a production proof of concept to get Disney to approve the entire Legion line. So essentially an expensive prototype of a game system that they were banking on making more than enough money to cover the cost they'd incur, knowing that Legion would appeal to a much larger audience and sell better.

From that perspective (and if I'm even close to be correct), Runewars was a resounding success.

Or/and they chucked all the resources (staff, budget etc) at Legion because of the FFG SW love-in (where each month's news is the 'how many SW news articles this month' guessing game)

It is of course possible that they can succeed with Legion because it's quite unique to them, maybe they were too late to the party with RWM- fantasy miniatures wargame rivals having many years ground over FFG.

Plenty of Terrinoth kit/ideas out there for fans to work with though and that which was developed for RWM could find its way into other games ideas-wise, unless they're also gradually killing off their own IP's in favour of other companies' IP's, which sadly seems to be a lot of the gist of recent communications from FFG, it's a bit like that other modern media malaise that is celeb culture, follow and feed the crowd rather than caring enough about your own creativity and uniqueness.

Since my earlier post we have of course had confirmation of something Descent/Terrinoth related upcoming, so Terrinoth is alive and well.

Still think there's potential to convert Descent heroes/monsters for anyone wishing to do so, if you don't glue RWM minis into their bigger bases some of the hero type bases would fit these as one option and also there are ways you could tray up groups of minis.

You'd just need to figure (hehe) out how to do (or have alternatives for) dials and movement markers etc.

Anyone with access to a 3d printer can make some simple base inserts that fit runewars bases. I was scouting out some various minis to add to the game a bit ago (I've gotten sidetracked since then). A very simple dial solution is to just put masking tape over a duplicate dial and draw a new one on.

My long term hope and goal is to make some circular dial images for download and print, which can be printed onto stickers and placed on existing dials (who needs 3 Ardus dials anyway?).

As I have no experiance in modern digital image making so I need someone with the skills to actually do this 😁 .

Another dial option would be to create a file for a dial for MDF printing.

If you want a giant sized boulder of ideas this epic list of NPC's for the Terrinoth/Mennara 'gameverse' by IamGazrok might suggest something you'd like to bring to the game for existing or new factions/armies:

https://www.scabard.com/pbs/campaign/235523/folder/263802

(there are also other potentially useful posts on characters and beasties in the Genesys forums)

It's also maybe a good thing FFG sometimes stop making stuff, I could easily see myself collecting all the minis for all of these if they all had them and the minis were still available, my wallet would hate me.

I have suggested FFG could offer 3d print items as a way of expanding ranges outside of the main lines but it got no response so no idea if they got the feedback....

Wonder if there's a way of 3d or/and card printing substitute dials or alternatives etc then you could tailor things to added entities as FFG aren't adding any such new units... Maybe not exactly the way such things are done in the game if it can't be done the same but something that works similarly?

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

Anyone with access to a 3d printer can make some simple base inserts that fit runewars bases.

2 hours ago, Watercolour Dragon said:

Wonder if there's a way of 3d or/and card printing substitute dials or alternatives etc then you could tailor things to added entities as FFG aren't adding any such new units... Maybe not exactly the way such things are done in the game if it can't be done the same but something that works similarly?

3D printing isn't very precise yet (at least not for any home printer), so you may end up with various problems attempting it. For base inserts, it would be simpler to purchase some of the triangle-style bases, such as these

You can use 3D printing for bases probably (you'll probably need a bit of postwork, but it's still something you can work with). With the way 3D printing leaves lines and blemishes, you won't want to use it for dials.

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

Another dial option would be to create a file for a dial for MDF printing.

That's probably the best bet, long-term. You'll run out of spare Ardus dials quickly if you're making new units. And a dial is rather easy to make.

I agree with the concerns about 3-d printing. That said, I've had some good luck lasercutting 25mm bases for individuals and also 8xmagnet bases to serve for the 2x2 unit bases. Dials are also fairly easy to lasercut/etch in monochrome given the artwork.

I have to confess, Runewars is still aspirational for me... increasingly so as I get back into Warmaster, but I like the dial concept. Legion is slightly less aspirational: I think I've played it twice, but it also seems a fairly solid system.

On 8/23/2019 at 7:16 PM, wisetiger7 said:

I agree with you OP. They killed off a game with a dedicated fan base, just like GW did with Warhammer Fantasy. And the thing is, Runewars was a game that a lot of those WFB players picked up to get that rank and file military strategy fix. To be let down like that again... well, it can turn people away from the hobby altogether. I was an avid Runewars collector and Star Wars Armada player, and I bought at least one of everything Elves and every SWA release, but stopped shortly after they dropped Runewars. So I don't blame you.

I think the term "dedicated fan base" is a bit shaky. I mean what is that really? Does a couple of hundred players around the world count as a dedicated fan base? a couple of thousand?

Games are successful when they sell, but they are not necessarily failures if they don't. Runewars did not sell, so it was canceled, but I would argue it was a successful game that just had a very short run. Having a "dedicated fan base" is not easy to achieve and even if that fan base is small, its not to be disregarded. I mean consider Twilight Imperium. Its on its 4th edition and by all accounts they never even printed enough copies of the game in its entire lifetime to qualify it as a economic success. They were making nickles and dimes on their best day on that game, but they made it because although small, the fan base that followed the franchise loved it.

I know some people liked it, whenever any game is canceled there is always a "some people liked it" commentary but Runewars never really had any hope of being an economic success. You had a skeleton people, a people people, elf people and demon people. The only way they could have made it a more generic fantasy game is if they removed all art and wrote "fantasy game" on the cover. The game just didn't have anything special about it, there was no spark. It was rather plain and boring.

Under the covers I agree there was a great mechanic, and I think this is what really helped to build an audience for it but you can't sell a miniature game on the basis of a mechanic.

If Gamesworkshop has showed us anything its that mechanics don't matter at all to the miniature gaming community. Its all about the visual and hobby component of miniature games. I mean Warhammer 40k has always been and always will be complete trash as a game mechanic. I mean, it literally has no redeeming qualities as a strategy game of any kind and anyone who knows anything about gaming and plays 40k knows that. Its just garbage. But the miniatures are amazing, the best in the business by a margin so wide that nothing else is even in the same space time continuum. Simply put, the only reason to play 40k is to paint the miniatures and that is enough to make it one of the longest running and successful miniature games in the history of the genre despite it being a complete failure in every other regard.

The real success stories are games like Warmachine and Horde. They pulled together great mechanics, amazing miniatures, great setting. Its a game that has held up with minimal changes to the mechanic since release and miniatures from 10 years ago are still better than anything modern efforts have managed like those from FFG. Privateer Press may have some questionable business ethics, but they know how to make a game successful. If FFG should model themselves, it should be after what P3 is doing.

Games workshop should be thanking FFG.

Runewars got me into painting minis and then as it died, moved to 40k, kill team and the like.

FFG helped GW make a lot of money from me.

9 hours ago, Adun42 said:

Games workshop should be thanking FFG.

Runewars got me into painting minis and then as it died, moved to 40k, kill team and the like.

FFG helped GW make a lot of money from me.

I can assure you when it comes to the miniature gaming hobby, Games Workshop always wins in the end. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest, even though I can't fathom how anyone, no matter how pretty the mini's are, can go from playing a game like Runewars with a deep, rich, modern and streamlined mechanic, to playing Yahtzee with miniatures in a game like Kill team or 40k?

There are so many miniatures games out there and mechanically speaking I can't think of a single one that I wouldn't recommend over 40k, Kill Team or Age of Sigmar. I mean quite literately you can buy any random published miniature game and it IS better designed then anything Games Workshop has made in 30 plus years of the genre.

23 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I can assure you when it comes to the miniature gaming hobby, Games Workshop always wins in the end. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest, even though I can't fathom how anyone, no matter how pretty the mini's are, can go from playing a game like Runewars with a deep, rich, modern and streamlined mechanic, to playing Yahtzee with miniatures in a game like Kill team or 40k?

There are so many miniatures games out there and mechanically speaking I can't think of a single one that I wouldn't recommend over 40k, Kill Team or Age of Sigmar. I mean quite literately you can buy any random published miniature game and it IS better designed then anything Games Workshop has made in 30 plus years of the genre.

I gather you dont care for gw games. 😉

I personally like them better than runewars. I would have stuck with runewars had ffg done so, but life goes on.

I didn't experience GW games before 8th edition, stayed away.

Kill team is, in my opinion, quite good. The game play is fast and tactical and 3d terrain that matters really sets up the story, the game, and the view of it all. It becomes much more than pushing plastic around a table. Or yelling "YATZEE!" or "WAAAAGH!!!" And does not have the high cost of entry that either runewars or 40k have.

Which I think is fun.

I like 40k, it is long but much much less fiddly than runewars and does not have the component based limitations. I dont need cards or dials to define what I can create or do. Nor will I miss a charge because my opponent went 1" to the right and my movement guide led me past my enemy, exposing my flank.

So it is quite easy for me to fathom why the game itself is the single most popular miniature game on the market for the last 10? 15? Years? It might just possibly, have something going for it, just maybe. Imho.

But I dont need this to degrade into a runewars v 40k, to each his own.

My main point was that the money I would have spent on runewars went into a very popular gaming system by another company because ffg failed to support their game.

I am in agreement with hepitude that I'm not going to support ffg and their off games anymore.

My point to ffg is that while they did well in increasing the overall population of miniature gamers, which is good, their lack of support for something that needed a long term view actually led me away from their company, both acknowledging and supporting hepitude's experience and reaction.

3 hours ago, Adun42 said:

I gather you dont care for gw games. 😉

Well lets just say that, I'm confused by its popularity, though this is also true for games like Magic The Gathering. I mean, Magic for example is decades behind as a game design compared to modern LCG's and CCG, I can't fathom why anyone having the option to play games like Game of Thrones LCG, Destiny or L5R, would play something so archaic as Magic The Gathering.

I do concede that Warhammer 40k is vastly improved in the last couple of versions than those that preceded it, but compared to say Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion or Warmachine, there is no comparison, the games are just better.

I think Games Workshop has failed to adopt modern design and there is some logic to them doing that. Its very much like the Dungeons and Dragons situation. There are modern, far superior designs to D&D, but the D&D franchise is locked into its legacy. The moment they tried to design their way out of their legacy traps (as they did with 4th edition), was the moment the entire community turned against them. These legacy franchises like Magic, Warhammer 40k and D&D simply don't have the option to modernize their games beyond minor adjustments and tweaks that they can kind of sneak past the old guard communities.