41 minutes ago, Supertoe said:

How does that make it accessible? When I would google a character I didn't know from Dice Masters, it was always incredibly overwhelming to sift through all the different versions on wikipedia and figure out who this character actually is. And I know more than the average LCG fan about the setting.

It actually makes it just as hard, because instead of the one large entry about the "original" version of the character, there's now three or four that are equally large and you actually have to have a rudimentary knowledge of comics in order to read the right article.

1 hour ago, Supertoe said:

How does that make it accessible? When I would google a character I didn't know from Dice Masters, it was always incredibly overwhelming to sift through all the different versions on wikipedia and figure out who this character actually is. And I know more than the average LCG fan about the setting.

When learning a character’s history it probably makes it more daunting. But, when picking up a comic to read, it makes all that past irrelevant. They reboot or reskin the character so you don’t need to know what happened in prior stories to read their current one.

I think the biggest issue is that you can't really figure out how to follow a character thread through series.

Smaller heroes get relaunched every couple years and end up with a dozen #1s.

There is usually some sort of event that intrudes and throws everything into chaos, making it harder to read a single story.

They don't write for new readers. They build massive stories with dozens of tie-ins, etc.

15 hours ago, urloony said:

I'm not sure what the issue is Vlad. Are you afraid of discussion or what?

What in the world gave you that impression? Because I kept discussing with you previously until the thread was locked. That does not seem like that would indicate that one is "afraid of discussion."

Quote

You never did tell me what your favorite issue # or storyline from Ms. Marvel was.

That's because you never asked.

Quote

What do you like best about Kamala Khan's run of Ms. Marvel?

My favorite was actually the initial story arc with her first discovering her powers. I also rather enjoyed her team-up with Peter Parker in Amazing Spider-Man, since they play off each other well. What really sold me on the character/writer for her solo series was the humor. The opening scene where she's in the deli smelling the "delicious infidel meats" that she is forbidden from eating cracked me up, and instantly had me hooked. After checking out that first issue, I binged every issue that was available on Marvel Unlimited at the time.

7 hours ago, Radix2309 said:

I think the biggest issue is that you can't really figure out how to follow a character thread through series.

Smaller heroes get relaunched every couple years and end up with a dozen #1s.

There is usually some sort of event that intrudes and throws everything into chaos, making it harder to read a single story.

They don't write for new readers. They build massive stories with dozens of tie-ins, etc.

Yes, to all of these, but especially the first two. And it isn't just the smaller heroes: Captain America had two relaunches to his series within the space of two years. It's starting to be where I follow the artists instead of the issue numbers, as generally one artist will draw the entire series (why I don't know, it just seems to be working out that way).

5 hours ago, Paladin Ignatius said:

Yes, to all of these, but especially the first two. And it isn't just the smaller heroes: Captain America had two relaunches to his series within the space of two years. It's starting to be where I follow the artists instead of the issue numbers, as generally one artist will draw the entire series (why I don't know, it just seems to be working out that way).

Yeah was going to mention this one.
Series restart so much from zero.
But not really.
But sometimes it is a real reboot.

I'd rather have them all return to say 15 series. Well plotted out. Clear. Good art quality. And with good coordination between series.
And your minor characters can still play a role in occassional minor arcs, teamups or team series.

But atm 'settings' are a convoluted mess.

12 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

That's because you never asked.

I did, but it was at the end of a long post in a now locked thread, so no big deal.

12 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

My favorite was actually the initial story arc with her first discovering her powers. I also rather enjoyed her team-up with Peter Parker in Amazing Spider-Man, since they play off each other well. What really sold me on the character/writer for her solo series was the humor. The opening scene where she's in the deli smelling the "delicious infidel meats" that she is forbidden from eating cracked me up, and instantly had me hooked. After checking out that first issue, I binged every issue that was available on Marvel Unlimited at the time.

I guess man. Captain Marvel descending in a cloud speaking Hindu to give Kamala her: "I can grow fat hand" powers? Aside from a lame origin story, even by Marvel standards, there's too much propaganda in it for me to enjoy. If you like it, more power to ya.

11 hours ago, urloony said:

I did, but it was at the end of a long post in a now locked thread, so no big deal.

I guess man. Captain Marvel descending in a cloud speaking Hindu to give Kamala her: "I can grow fat hand" powers? Aside from a lame origin story, even by Marvel standards, there's too much propaganda in it for me to enjoy. If you like it, more power to ya.

And this is why I said "here we go again." For someone who ostensibly doesn't want politics in their comics/games, you certainly seem to be trying to make every discussion political.

16 hours ago, urloony said:

I guess man. Captain Marvel descending in a cloud speaking Hindu to give Kamala her: "I can grow fat hand" powers? Aside from a lame origin story, even by Marvel standards, there's too much propaganda in it for me to enjoy. If you like it, more power to ya.

LMAO - the mere existence of brown people is propaganda to you racists isn't it?

Hindu isn't a language, it's a religion (that Kamala isn't). Get off the internet for a bit and read a book my guy.

4 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

And this is why I said "here we go again." For someone who ostensibly doesn't want politics in their comics/games, you certainly seem to be trying to make every discussion political.

I prefer my comics to not involve politics in their characters and stories. That being said, comics are a storytelling medium, and every story has a message. Regardless of whether the message is political or religious in nature, our stories are shaped by our experiences and beliefs and reflect the attitudes of the times. The Sam Wilson, Captain America series (which I thought was a pretty good comic) had quite a bit of the Black Lives Matter movement and the Left-Vs.-Right fight in its plots and characters. That's the nature of stories.

Okay, people, take a Chill Pill. Someone just used the R word, and that just puts us a step closer to being locked out of this forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but we need to be civil about it. Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to start name-calling.

6 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

And this is why I said "here we go again." For someone who ostensibly doesn't want politics in their comics/games, you certainly seem to be trying to make every discussion political.

I find it interesting that a comic writer who injects politics into their writing is not seen as political, but a reader who points out that fact is.

1 hour ago, Paladin Ignatius said:

I prefer my comics to not involve politics in their characters and stories. That being said, comics are a storytelling medium, and every story has a message. Regardless of whether the message is political or religious in nature, our stories are shaped by our experiences and beliefs and reflect the attitudes of the times. The Sam Wilson, Captain America series (which I thought was a pretty good comic) had quite a bit of the Black Lives Matter movement and the Left-Vs.-Right fight in its plots and characters. That's the nature of stories.

This a very good point. Comics have always been a platform for media propaganda it's the nature of it. In the Golden Age it was support the war, buy war bonds, fight Hitler and the Japanese. Silver Age has a lot of patriotism, and encouragement to listen to your government and do what's best for your country. We can't be so naive as to think it isn't present. I think the biggest shift in today's market is the priority of politics over good story telling.

3 hours ago, Paladin Ignatius said:

I prefer my comics to not involve politics in their characters and stories. That being said, comics are a storytelling medium, and every story has a message. Regardless of whether the message is political or religious in nature, our stories are shaped by our experiences and beliefs and reflect the attitudes of the times. The Sam Wilson, Captain America series (which I thought was a pretty good comic) had quite a bit of the Black Lives Matter movement and the Left-Vs.-Right fight in its plots and characters. That's the nature of stories.

Just imagine for a moment the uproar if Giant-Size X-Men #1 was released today. The cries of "SJW garbage!!!" and "forced diversity!!!" from the internet would be deafening.

Like you said, comics have always been political. People just whine about it a lot more now.

46 minutes ago, KBlumhardt said:

Just imagine for a moment the uproar if Giant-Size X-Men #1 was released today. The cries of "SJW garbage!!!" and "forced diversity!!!" from the internet would be deafening.

Like you said, comics have always been political. People just whine about it a lot more now.

Aside from the characters being diverse in origin, Giant-Size X-Men did nothing to force feed the political message to you. X-Men has always been a semi-political book, especially under Claremont's run. But, the delivery isn't the same as today's. The diversity was woven into good storytelling, and with X-Men in particular, the focus was on the common struggle of being a mutant rather than each individual's ethnicity.

Today's attempts are so heavy-handed that they destroy the story. When something in a story makes the reader consciously aware of an attempt to inject a social statement, it ruins the story. Some writers have the gift to inject that without making you consciously aware, which keeps the story first. Most of today's attempts by Marvel and DC are not by writers that can do that. It just comes off as force-fed rubbish.

Lock out in T: -10, 9, 8,. . .

23 minutes ago, Turtlefan2082 said:

Lock out in T: -10, 9, 8,. . .

7,6,5...

1 hour ago, gokubb said:

Aside from the characters being diverse in origin, Giant-Size X-Men did nothing to force feed the political message to you. X-Men has always been a semi-political book, especially under Claremont's run. But, the delivery isn't the same as today's. The diversity was woven into good storytelling, and with X-Men in particular, the focus was on the common struggle of being a mutant rather than each individual's ethnicity.

Today's attempts are so heavy-handed that they destroy the story. When something in a story makes the reader consciously aware of an attempt to inject a social statement, it ruins the story. Some writers have the gift to inject that without making you consciously aware, which keeps the story first. Most of today's attempts by Marvel and DC are not by writers that can do that. It just comes off as force-fed rubbish.

There is literally a Claremont issue where Kitty Pride aggressively uses a serious racial slur to a black person to make a point about mutant rights. Comics have always made political points, because politics reflect real life, and so do comics.

Stories about different kinds of people hurt no one and certainly help other people feel represented. I haven’t read Ms Marvel (I quit reading comics in 2011 shortly after by first daughter was born) but I had a flip through the first couple of TPBs in the book store the other day after she was announced for this game and it looked pretty fun and perfectly fine comic book fare.

7 minutes ago, FearLord said:

There is literally a Claremont issue where Kitty Pride aggressively uses a serious racial slur to a black person to make a point about mutant rights. Comics have always made political points, because politics reflect real life, and so do comics.

Stories about different kinds of people hurt no one and certainly help other people feel represented. I haven’t read Ms Marvel (I quit reading comics in 2011 shortly after by first daughter was born) but I had a flip through the first couple of TPBs in the book store the other day after she was announced for this game and it looked pretty fun and perfectly fine comic book fare.

It's Uncanny X-Men #196. I have that comic. The racial slur is in response to the other student calling Kitty a 'mutie'. The purpose of that was to equate mutant hate to racial hate. Claremont was building a world where this kind of hate existed and needed to explain its seriousness and impact in a way we (the reader) understood. The closest thing the reader could relate that to was racism. That particular scene wasn't a political message, it was a device to let the reader better understand the bigotry towards mutants.

On 8/23/2019 at 7:04 PM, gokubb said:

It's Uncanny X-Men #196. I have that comic. The racial slur is in response to the other student calling Kitty a 'mutie'. The purpose of that was to equate mutant hate to racial hate. Claremont was building a world where this kind of hate existed and needed to explain its seriousness and impact in a way we (the reader) understood. The closest thing the reader could relate that to was racism. That particular scene wasn't a political message, it was a device to let the reader better understand the bigotry towards mutants.

Comics then and now contain the message that hating people for their differences is pretty dumb. If you think Ms Marvel is more ‘political’ than Claremont era X Men then I think you’re kidding yourself...

Just now, FearLord said:

Comics then and now contain the message that hating people for there differences is pretty dumb. If you think Ms Marvel is more ‘political’ than Claremont era X Men then I think you’re kidding yourself...

I don't think it's more political. I think it's more deliberate. When I read Uncanny 196, I didn't stop and think about how hard Claremont was trying to make me see his social commentary. It made complete sense to me as a story device and didn't make me stop to think about racism in my world. I took it as a part of the story and a point being made to think about the hatred of mutants in Claremont's world. Maybe it's poor character development or just bad writing, but I don't get that from today's comics. When I read social comments in today's comics it feels unnatural in the story and takes me out of that story and into reality. It's there to make me think about my world, which is not good storytelling. That's all I'm saying. Keep social commentary and politics in stories, just tell them better so that it stays in the story. Disguise it better.

8 hours ago, KBlumhardt said:

Just imagine for a moment the uproar if Giant-Size X-Men #1 was released today. The cries of "SJW garbage!!!" and "forced diversity!!!" from the internet would be deafening.

Like you said, comics have always been political. People just whine about it a lot more now.

Ironically, the reverse would be true actually. Marvel would be persecuted on Twitter and elsewhere for numerous violations of political correctness. Let me list them:

• No transgender or homosexual characters (This isn't Ultimate Colossus)
• Stereotyping Proudstar as an aggressive, short tempered Native American.
• Gendered language: Wolverine referring to a group of people as "gents."
• Reference to a differently-abled person in a wheelchair as a "cripple"
• Depiction of Africans as half-naked savages. (Xavier spends several panels staring at Storm topless)
• A man rescuing a female child from being run over by a tractor without her consent
• Cyclops "mansplaining" to Jean
• All male writer, editor, illustrator, and letterer

37 minutes ago, urloony said:

Ironically, the reverse would be true actually. Marvel would be persecuted on Twitter and elsewhere for numerous violations of political correctness. Let me list them:

• No transgender or homosexual characters (This isn't Ultimate Colossus)
• Stereotyping Proudstar as an aggressive, short tempered Native American.
• Gendered language: Wolverine referring to a group of people as "gents."
• Reference to a differently-abled person in a wheelchair as a "cripple"
• Depiction of Africans as half-naked savages. (Xavier spends several panels staring at Storm topless)
• A man rescuing a female child from being run over by a tractor without her consent
• Cyclops "mansplaining" to Jean
• All male writer, editor, illustrator, and letterer

I think you're confusing 'the reverse' with 'in addition to' because while you're correct, some on the left would inevitably make some of those complaints... you're crazy if you think a team of established, white characters being replaced by a black woman, Native American, and a bunch of non-Americans wouldn't set the right-wing corners of social media just as ablaze.

When I said "people just whine more these days", I wasn't just referring to one side of the spectrum by any means.

38 minutes ago, urloony said:

Ironically, the reverse would be true actually. Marvel would be persecuted on Twitter and elsewhere for numerous violations of political correctness. Let me list them:

• No transgender or homosexual characters (This isn't Ultimate Colossus)
• Stereotyping Proudstar as an aggressive, short tempered Native American.
• Gendered language: Wolverine referring to a group of people as "gents."
• Reference to a differently-abled person in a wheelchair as a "cripple"
• Depiction of Africans as half-naked savages. (Xavier spends several panels staring at Storm topless)
• A man rescuing a female child from being run over by a tractor without her consent
• Cyclops "mansplaining" to Jean
• All male writer, editor, illustrator, and letterer

Hah! You know, I never looked at it that way before but yeah, this is so true. You can't please everyone, and these days everyone's so darn sensitive that even the slightest mistake will get you lambasted in the media. Gosh, I wish we could go back to the Heroic Age.

1 minute ago, KBlumhardt said:

I think you're confusing 'the reverse' with 'in addition to' because while you're correct, some on the left would inevitably make some of those complaints... you're crazy if you think a team of established, white characters being replaced by a black woman, Native American, and a bunch of non-Americans wouldn't set the right-wing corners of social media just as ablaze.

When I said "people just whine more these days", I wasn't just referring to one side of the spectrum by any means.

Possibly, but it would certainly be far easier to make those changes today than it was in 1975. I haven't done much research on how Uncanny X-Men was received at the time, or specifically how the new characters were welcomed by their audience. However, in GS X-Men #1, characters aren't being replaced, they are being added. This is an important point. Storm is being added, Colossus is being added, Kurt is being added, Warpath is being added. They are not replacing previously existing characters. Black Panther is another excellent example of creating a new minority character. Today when a "new" character is created they replace an existing character, even if only temporarily. Riri and Kamala are recent examples. Why not have the first Muslim super-hero be something new and different like Black Panther, Colossus, or Storm. Instead the writer and/or Marvel are implying that they are afraid their new character won't sell on their own, so they have to hijack a successful title in order for it to sell.