2 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

Try this on for size.

Back when I was studying fencing IRL we spent just as much time working on strength training as on anything else. And yeah that was for a martial art that emphasized finesse.

Mind you the training fencing foils were pretty light weight, but we were effectively training to use a 3 lbs Rapier or comparable weight sabre.

So if you didn't have the strength (aka "Brawn") then you just weren't going to be able to effectively wield the weapon.

BUT, I get the notion of using Dexterity (aka: "Agility") as the attribute to base your ability to land a blow with a melee weapon and to use Strength as the attribute for damage because that's how SJ Games GURPS handles melee combat.

And it works brilliantly.

The biggest problem that I have with GURPS is that I haven't figured out how to include and balance force powers yet . . . I wish my players would spend more time focusing on force powers, because I think the way FFG balanced their talents and force powers, it lays out a good way to handle the Force. The trick would be to design a similar approach to GURPS where force powers are treated ad Advantages . . . (But I digress).

Mind you, I've already tweaked FFG's SW RPG rules enough to invoke the unbridled ire and wrath of these Forums and I'm intrigued to see the OP test out this theory and to report how it works for them.

Roll them bones P-47 and let us know how it works for you!

I do not really use the force, as I don't have Force and Destiny (yet), so I don't have all of the lightsaber stuff, just the basic powers. I eventually will probably try to join the Force to combat, but I can't even speculate yet as I don't know what sort of special talents there are for Jedi combat. Also, what is GURPS?

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

If you dont want to invest a lot of xp in sword fighting then use brawn. This is like armor. If yoj want to be good in armor invest in a talent tree that makes it so.

The rules are set up the way they are for a reason.

Investing 40-45 (3 ranks + 10-15 for characteristic switch) seems like plenty. Adopting a new talent Tree (30 xp minimum if you aren't the right Jedi) and then working your way down to the right talent seems like an excessive expenditure, especially considering that that could probably just about max out your melee skill.

Or you can buy upgraded armor with credits. Your character having a certain style is different than just "oh, they get +1 soak from armor" that is a good perk/talent, but that doesn't really have anything to do with your character's style.

29 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Investing 40-45 (3 ranks + 10-15 for characteristic switch) seems like plenty. Adopting a new talent Tree (30 xp minimum if you aren't the right Jedi) and then working your way down to the right talent seems like an excessive expenditure, especially considering that that could probably just about max out your melee skill.

Or you can buy upgraded armor with credits. Your character having a certain style is different than just "oh, they get +1 soak from armor" that is a good perk/talent, but that doesn't really have anything to do with your character's style.

It occurs to me that being good at this "finesse melee" requires high Brawn and high Agility, making the aquirement of multiple specialisation trees for their Dedications necessary anyway.

It also makes it a far less than optimal choice compared to traditional melee.

Also, in this system, having a "style", generally involves buying a specialisation tree and a bunch of talents that let you be good in that style and use its signature moves.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

It occurs to me that being good at this "finesse melee" requires high Brawn and high Agility, making the aquirement of multiple specialisation trees for their Dedications necessary anyway.

It also makes it a far less than optimal choice compared to traditional melee.

Also, in this system, having a "style", generally involves buying a specialisation tree and a bunch of talents that let you be good in that style and use its signature moves.

I don't mean play-style, I just mean how your character behaves or thinks etc. which does not require xp expenditure. The perks and abilities would all be referred to as play-style or just perks and abilities.

I would not say that it requires high Brawn, it's just that high Brawn is useful.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

So someone has to purchase an entire specialization and then work their way to the specific talent? I think that's a bit much. For them to want to further specialize their abilities that makes sense, but I think it is a bit much to make them spend ton of xp just to change the characteristic they use. As far as the talents go, they would allow the character to use the relevant characteristic for everything, not just certain weapons.

The specific talents that each allow you to use a given attribute instead of Brawn for the Lightsaber skill are each placed in the 10 XP tier. That means you typically only have to purchase one 5XP talent before reaching the desired talent in the tree. In other words, they’re each relatively cheap to purchase once you have the desired specialization in question.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The specific talents that each allow you to use a given attribute instead of Brawn for the Lightsaber skill are each placed in the 10 XP tier. That means you typically only have to purchase one 5XP talent before reaching the desired talent in the tree. In other words, they’re each relatively cheap to purchase once you have the desired specialization in question.

"Once you have the desired specialization" being the operative phrase. I would encourage a PC who wanted to focus on Melee to go for one of those trees, but if they simply want to have a certain fighting style for specific weapons (with the prerequisites I mentioned) I would not require them to buy a whole specialization tree. I think a good comprimise would be to say that once you get to tier 3 (30 xp total cost) in Melee you can spend 15 xp (5+10) and then you can use Agility for certain weapons.

26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I don't mean play-style, I just mean how your character behaves or thinks etc. which does not require xp expenditure. The perks and abilities would all be referred to as play-style or just perks and abilities.

I would not say that it requires high Brawn, it's just that high Brawn is useful.

How your character behaves and thinks doesn't require game mechanics, period. Fancy fencing requires as much or more brawn than it does agility anyway, just to hold on to your foil when you get parried.

Do you even want to invest in any melee tree at all?

31 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

"Once you have the desired specialization" being the operative phrase. I would encourage a PC who wanted to focus on Melee to go for one of those trees, but if they simply want to have a certain fighting style for specific weapons (with the prerequisites I mentioned) I would not require them to buy a whole specialization tree. I think a good comprimise would be to say that once you get to tier 3 (30 xp total cost) in Melee you can spend 15 xp (5+10) and then you can use Agility for certain weapons.

Okay, well.

What are we talking about here? Some mainly ranged character with a backup sword?

21 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

How your character behaves and thinks doesn't require game mechanics, period. Fancy fencing requires as much or more brawn than it does agility anyway, just to hold on to your foil when you get parried.

Do you even want to invest in any melee tree at all?

Which is why you can't get to Agility dueling until at least a couple sessions into the game, and that's if you focus on Melee, which gives a motivation to have a medium/high Brawn in the first place (aside from the increase in damage). Also maybe adding Cumbersome 2+ to swords would be a good move.

It depends on the character, I don't really have anything in mind particularly, the question is more about the principle.

23 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Okay, well.

What are we talking about here? Some mainly ranged character with a backup sword?

If it was a mainly ranged character, he probably wouldn't go into Melee all that much, but I'm referring more to characters in general who want to go for melee. For example, in Edge of the Empire there is a really strong Melee tree called Marauder. If the character is, for example, a lithe woman who focuses on stealth, maybe the PC wants to make a decision to only have 2 Brawn, because the character isn't all that strong, yet still wants to be good at Melee (that actually sounds like a cool character). It would make sense for that character to use Agility for Melee, particularly if it is a short sword or something. The character would still be penalized for having a low Brawn, though, as their damage would be nerfed. Another matter is that you could reduce their Defensive rating against someone using Brawn or something or you could just add Boost or Setback to represent the benefits and negatives of using a given characteristic in any given scenario.

I think what you really need or want is a homebrew generic Swashbuckler specialisation.

4 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

I think what you really need or want is a homebrew generic Swashbuckler specialisation.

Ehh, the point is I don't really want it to be contingent on a specialization, so making a new specialization doesn't really help. What is your opinion of my suggestion for the cost? I listed it earlier, but here it is again for your convenience: You can't use Agility until you get to tier 3 in Melee, and then you can spend 15 xp to allow you to use Agility.

I suggest you try Genesys with its more freeform buying of talents instead of this.

The things you suggest are alien to how this game works. Trees are how you get good at melee or shooting or building ships, not buying random stuff here and there that are essentially non-tree talents. What does tier 3 in Melee even mean? Tier 3 refers to the 15 XP talents in a tree, but you don't like trees, which are pretty much the core of the game.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

I suggest you try Genesys with its more freeform buying of talents instead of this.

The things you suggest are alien to how this game works. Trees are how you get good at melee or shooting or building ships, not buying random stuff here and there that are essentially non-tree talents. What does tier 3 in Melee even mean? Tier 3 refers to the 15 XP talents in a tree, but you don't like trees, which are pretty much the core of the game.

I do not generally condone buying perks willy-nilly, this was suggested as a compromise between "too cheap" and "too expensive" I would just as soon not though (except for the skill level requirement). When I said Tier 3 I meant 3 ranks in the skill, sorry.

I do like talent trees (a lot), I just don't think that they make the most sense in this scenario.

The specialization cost isn’t that much (if anything if it’s your first specialization). The only way to buy a talent outside of a specialization in this system is using the “Battle Scars” option from Forged in Battle. In all other cases, you must have the proper specialization that a given talent is in in order to gain access to said talent. That is simply the way this system works.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The specialization cost isn’t that much (if anything if it’s your first specialization). The only way to buy a talent outside of a specialization in this system is using the “Battle Scars” option from Forged in Battle. In all other cases, you must have the proper specialization that a given talent is in in order to gain access to said talent. That is simply the way this system works.

The thing about spending xp to get the specialization, is that cost goes up for all future specializations and if it is your first specialization, then this whole discussion is a moot point. I am not talking about buying a talent outside of a talent tree (as it isn't a talent) I'm simply talking about representing a character's fighting style and skill level with a benefit that is similar to a talent. I know I'm sort of splitting hairs here, but it is a relevant difference. I would just as soon not have it as a thing you have to buy, and it just be an option for certain characters, for certain weapons, once they reach 2 or 3 ranks in Melee.

4 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The thing about spending xp to get the specialization, is that cost goes up for all future specializations and if it is your first specialization, then this whole discussion is a moot point. I am not talking about buying a talent outside of a talent tree (as it isn't a talent) I'm simply talking about representing a character's fighting style and skill level with a benefit that is similar to a talent. I know I'm sort of splitting hairs here, but it is a relevant difference. I would just as soon not have it as a thing you have to buy, and it just be an option for certain characters, for certain weapons, once they reach 2 or 3 ranks in Melee.

Except that’s not how this system is designed. If you want to change the attribute a given combat skill uses, you must purchase the appropriate talent from the appropriate spec. And the only weapon skill that even allows that is the Lightsaber skill through the various lightsaber technique talents available from their tree. The only other talent that allows it is in one of the Universal specs from Collapse of the Republic.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that’s not how this system is designed. If you want to change the attribute a given combat skill uses, you must purchase the appropriate talent from the appropriate spec. And the only weapon skill that even allows that is the Lightsaber skill through the various lightsaber technique talents available from their tree. The only other talent that allows it is in one of the Universal specs from Collapse of the Republic.

Except it only works for the lightsaber skill. As the GM of my table I feel I'm free to allow a character to change the attribute used with the melee, brawl and both ranged skills because there's no talent in any of the three corerulebook that do it. I've allowed it since I started playing the Beta of EotE and it works without any problem. I doesn't unbalance the game or make agility a more valuable attribute because it let the choice to change or not change the attribute to the player.

Seriously I can't understand why people here are so opposed to such a minor modification of the rules.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that’s not how this system is designed. If you want to change the attribute a given combat skill uses, you must purchase the appropriate talent from the appropriate spec. And the only weapon skill that even allows that is the Lightsaber skill through the various lightsaber technique talents available from their tree. The only other talent that allows it is in one of the Universal specs from Collapse of the Republic.

I understand that, I'm making an exception in this case though, and, again, It is limited to only certain weapons and certain characters and even that would be at GM discretion, so it would not get out of hand unless the GM doesn't do their job well.

The bottom line is enjoyment of the game. If this doesn't float your boat, there is no reason to do it. In my case, I think it is an improvement over the base game. I posted this topic because I had a tentative opinion on the matter and wanted to put it through scrutiny so that it could be as good as possible, and maybe help out other people as well. I'm not suggesting an amendment to the base game, just a house rule that some people might find useful.

As an extension of that, simply saying that it doesn't fit strictly within the rules of the game doesn't help me, but if you could make a case for why it mechanically doesn't make sense, that would be helpful because it would help me improve my house rules or maybe change my mind on using said house rules in the first place.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I understand that, I'm making an exception in this case though, and, again, It is limited to only certain weapons and certain characters and even that would be at GM discretion, so it would not get out of hand unless the GM doesn't do their job well.

The bottom line is enjoyment of the game. If this doesn't float your boat, there is no reason to do it. In my case, I think it is an improvement over the base game. I posted this topic because I had a tentative opinion on the matter and wanted to put it through scrutiny so that it could be as good as possible, and maybe help out other people as well. I'm not suggesting an amendment to the base game, just a house rule that some people might find useful.

As an extension of that, simply saying that it doesn't fit strictly within the rules of the game doesn't help me, but if you could make a case for why it mechanically doesn't make sense, that would be helpful because it would help me improve my house rules or maybe change my mind on using said house rules in the first place.

Seems like an awful lot of effort for something you don't need to even make melee agility based to accomblish. Just put more ranks in melee. It will kind of endnup the same. Spend xp to get a talent to use agility for melee and have 2y2g pool. Spend xp to get your melee to a 4 skill and have 2y2g pool. Why are you working so hard to make it agility based?

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Seems like an awful lot of effort for something you don't need to even make melee agility based to accomblish. Just put more ranks in melee. It will kind of endnup the same. Spend xp to get a talent to use agility for melee and have 2y2g pool. Spend xp to get your melee to a 4 skill and have 2y2g pool. Why are you working so hard to make it agility based?

Part of it is just the narrative fun of a super-agile, but (sometimes) rather weak character dueling someone (though that can be done without using Agility for Melee), but also, if you have 2 in Brawn and 4 in Agility that means that your maximum basic dice pool is YYGGG (an ~1/6 (very rounded) chance of rolling a Triumph), whereas if you use Agility, you have a maximum basic dice pool of YYYYG (an ~3/10 (very rounded) chance of rolling a Triumph). That in short simply means you have a much better roll potential. I know it's a "no, duh" answer, but the highest maximum roll is a very important number. Even more than that is the narrative effect I mentioned earlier. As I stated that can be done without changing the dice roll, but I think changing the characteristic linked to the dice roll makes it more fun.

17 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Part of it is just the narrative fun of a super-agile, but (sometimes) rather weak character dueling someone (though that can be done without using Agility for Melee), but also, if you have 2 in Brawn and 4 in Agility that means that your maximum basic dice pool is YYGGG (an ~1/6 (very rounded) chance of rolling a Triumph), whereas if you use Agility, you have a maximum basic dice pool of YYYYG (an ~3/10 (very rounded) chance of rolling a Triumph). That in short simply means you have a much better roll potential. I know it's a "no, duh" answer, but the highest maximum roll is a very important number. Even more than that is the narrative effect I mentioned earlier. As I stated that can be done without changing the dice roll, but I think changing the characteristic linked to the dice roll makes it more fun.

You are having descriptive fun, linking an agility-based style to the stat called Agility.

Narrative fun is taking that stealthy melee woman you mentioned last page, giving her 5 Brawn, and narrating it as her being lean, mean, and wiry instead of having huge muscles.

9 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

You are having descriptive fun, linking an agility-based style to the stat called Agility.

Narrative fun is taking that stealthy melee woman you mentioned last page, giving her 5 Brawn, and narrating it as her being lean, mean, and wiry instead of having huge muscles.

Yeah, you can do that, but the mental picture connected with that stat is very different. Also, part of the reason for using Agility is so that the character's good Melee doesn't bleed over into other Brawn skills (Brawl [unless you want to use Agility to represent more precise martial arts], Athletics, and Resilience). A good example would be that this woman shouldn't be able to ARM WRESTLE A WOOKIEE. She might be able to judo throw a wookiee, or out duel a wookiee, but not out arm wrestle a wookiee.

I don't see why that would mean that you can't just use Agility, especially as the fighting style would require a lot of coordination, so it would make sense for the character to have a very good Coordination basic dice pool. A good example of the sort of character I'm considering is Martel from Full Metal Alchemist (if you've ever watched the show, she is the snake person). Another point is that having 5 Brawn adds 3 damage per attack, whereas you can represent the difference between her strength and her skill by having a low Brawn, but a high basic dice pool using Agility.

15 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, you can do that, but the mental picture connected with that stat is very different.

Your personal mental picture is very different.

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Also, part of the reason for using Agility is so that the character's good Melee doesn't bleed over into other Brawn skills (Brawl [unless you want to use Agility to represent more precise martial arts], Athletics, and Resilience). A good example would be that this woman shouldn't be able to ARM WRESTLE A WOOKIEE. She might be able to judo throw a wookiee, or out duel a wookiee, but not out arm wrestle a wookiee.

Why on earth would this character not have decent Brawn skills or be able to do all this? She's a combat-oriented player character.

But if you want somebody who is not strong but very skilled with a blade? Buy all the ranks in Melee you can afford. That gives you exactly what you want.

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I don't see why that would mean that you can't just use Agility

Because that's not really a thing in this game, and it also creates "one stat to rule them all" where you just need Agility to be amazing at Stealth, Melee, Ranged, and Piloting. Agility is already bad enough as it is in this regard. It's game balance. If you allow it for the player who wants to be sub-optimal at melee, you also have to allow it for the player who wants to be good at everything.

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Another point is that having 5 Brawn adds 3 damage per attack, whereas you can represent the difference between her strength and her skill by having a low Brawn, but a high basic dice pool using Agility.

High skill in melee should equal high deadliness in melee.

3 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Why on earth would this character not have decent Brawn skills or be able to do all this? She's a combat-oriented player character.

Have you ever met a lithe woman who seems like she could arm wrestle a wookiee? Look, as far as Brawn Skills go, buying ranks in Resilience is good, because it represents the character training her body to be more resistant, high ranks in Athletics shows the character training herself to be able to move faster and farther. However, that would be in spite of starting with a lower Brawn rating, whereas having a high Brawn rating makes you naturally better at those things.

7 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

But if you want somebody who is not strong but very skilled with a blade? Buy all the ranks in Melee you can afford. That gives you exactly what you want.

This is not a specific character build (yet, I'm starting to really like this character idea), this is more about the principle.

Like I stated earlier, it does a good job of representing the character's fighting style, which could be an extension of that character's personality.

9 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Because that's not really a thing in this game, and it also creates "one stat to rule them all" where you just need Agility to be amazing at Stealth, Melee, Ranged, and Piloting. Agility is already bad enough as it is in this regard. It's game balance. If you allow it for the player who wants to be sub-optimal at melee, you also have to allow it for the player who wants to be good at everything.

Not necessarily, if the character just wants to be good at everything, the GM could say no, your character is a jack of all trades, master of none, so you can't do this particular special thing because it represents a character's style, and that doesn't really fit a character with 3 Brawn and 4 Agility (a likely stat for all-rounders with a superior Agility) because your character doesn't have the same physical barrier to overcome.

Short people fight differently than tall people, because they have a physical barrier to overcome, just like weak people will fight differently than strong people.

18 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

High skill in melee should equal high deadliness in melee.

Yes, and that is demonstrated by having a better dice pool, but a weak person can't do as much damage because they just can't hit hard enough. If 10 year-old girl boxing prodigy punches you, it would hurt a lot less than if the average 25 year-old man were to punch you. Regardless of skill, weaker people just don't have the same potential for damage.

@micheldebruyn hit the nail right on the head. Allowing someone to use Agility for Melee is game breaking. Agility already has pretty much most of the combat skills attached to it already, as well as a huge number of non-combat skills. Adding Melee into the mix makes Agility too good. That's why the ability to use use the lightsaber with a different Attribute from Brawn requires special talents. The specialization Force-Sensitive Outcast also includes the talent Renegade Form in the 15XP tier, which, like the six main lightsaber technique talents, allows you to choose any one other Attribute to use the the lightsaber skill in place of Brawn.